Low volume sound

NZS said:

The bass is not at a bass-heads level but it does go low enough and is not lacking quantity or quality. The overall sound is balanced.
I have tried the speakers closer to the wall and the seating position back to the wall, before and after room treatments and found the better sound was when the speakers were 900mm to a metre off the wall and the chair out from the wall.
I’ll give it ago again and see what changes and the compromises.

@Holmz
Equalising has been mentioned a few times @Holmz and can look into if the component's have this ability.
If the components have this feature, what is the achievement goal and which steps would you try first as I have no experience with this?

Yes, your presumption is correct, I do live in New Zealand.

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If it has some EQ in the chain, then it should be possible to implement a “loudness” where the low and highs get a bit of boost.

It would be like finding where the system sounds great at a higher volume, and then where you listen at the lower volume.
Difference the 2 curves, then build the EQ based upon the difference.

If that sounds better or not, then at least we have some reference point to understand whether this approach might be what is needed.

South Island?

mtemur said:

If you have a room treatment like rock wool, acoustic sponge etc most probably those are causing the fatigue.

IMHO get rid of commercial room treatments, install dedicated power line, consider upgrading to better cables, stand, tweaks etc. To change the components is the last thing to do.

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How would room treatment cause fatigue? Room treatment reduces reflections and also typically reduces the higher frequencies. Removing this is likely to increase fatigue.

sigbergaudio said:

How would room treatment cause fatigue? Room treatment reduces reflections and also typically reduces the higher frequencies. Removing this is likely to increase fatigue.

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I answered it in another post:

mtemur said:

My point is getting rid of synthetic treatments if there is any. I don’t want the sound in my room to bounce from sponge or rock wool. I know many will oppose but nobody can change my mind cause I heard how those acoustic treatments sound like. They sure do correct some irregularities in frequency response but also impose their character on sound. Everyone is familiar with sound signature of copper and silver cables. When you measure both cables result is the same frequency response but different sound. Cable material’s character is added to the signal but we cannot easily measure. The same also applies here; acoustic treatment material’s character is added to the sound depending on where the sound is reflected from. If it’s reflected from a sponge it sounds like a sponge. They wipe the lifelike tone of instruments and cause fatigue or un involving sound.

IMHO acoustic treatment should be done by easy to come by natural stuff like wood, cotton, glass etc.

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@NZS
The south Island is quite far from Norway, but if ever you should listen to an acoustic expert,
that I suspect (read: This is a very good expert in Norway - he is chuck norris level... Skryter litt av deg nå Thorbjørn)
knows a thing or two about equalizing and room treatment in a setup, it would be @sigbergaudio of all those of us that post in this thread.

What are the dips and valleys, what are the actual instruments or sounds that are hampered at low volume. (in your system)
That gives you basically info of how to eq and compensate, a way to approach the target curve you want to upload into
The DSP module so that in room response now makes intelligible the lost cues and sonic tapestry.

EQ is one thing, how to go about creating that curve is not just to snap your fingers, you need a plan.
How about everyone chip in and make that curve happen. We need that curve to input in the DSP.
It may need modifying along the tuning, but it should not be "flat" to start off with - that is to difficult I think for the Kiwi

@sigbergaudio how would you generate a curve or what would be desired ranges of frequency?


Does he need to model the room?
Take an in room measurement?
Or does it suffice to know what freq range to concentrate on, say first and then expand.

So, I think is a song or track that OP likes, and now at low level he finds it lacking.
Even IF I was in his room, I will not hear what he is now hearing. So I need to know like .. 3:25 into this track this sound now is not Good. And describe just what is lost. Say it is the conga sound…
Ok, conga is (x hz to y hz) and IF a snare is struck at the same time it is worse.

So, narrowing it down to actual instruments Voices on a specific track and look at that.
Can we adjust, make it clearer somehow
Not for My hearing, but for his. He is gonna have to do this himself. Ultimately that is the mission

Fletcher Munson curve is readily available, basically, it may be that is solves most of the issues and that would be good.
I would like to know if there is a track you are fond of, and this one now, is what at low volume you find lacking... @NZS
Maybe you have several. Or it may be across the board... obviously it is, but it could give a starting point to concoct a curve

@mtemur Sound doesn't generally "bounce off" rock wool. It absorbs the sound, that's the point of putting it there in the first place. I don't understand your experience with this. I have never heard or experienced someone having increased fatigue by a less reflective room.

Imperial said:

@NZS
The south Island is quite far from Norway, but if ever you should listen to an acoustic expert,
that I suspect (read: This is a very good expert in Norway - he is chuck norris level... Skryter litt av deg nå Thorbjørn)
knows a thing or two about equalizing and room treatment in a setup, it would be @sigbergaudio of all those of us that post in this thread.

What are the dips and valleys, what are the actual instruments or sounds that are hampered at low volume. (in your system)
That gives you basically info of how to eq and compensate, a way to approach the target curve you want to upload into
The DSP module so that in room response now makes intelligible the lost cues and sonic tapestry.

EQ is one thing, how to go about creating that curve is not just to snap your fingers, you need a plan.
How about everyone chip in and make that curve happen. We need that curve to input in the DSP.
It may need modifying along the tuning, but it should not be "flat" to start off with - that is to difficult I think for the Kiwi

@sigbergaudio how would you generate a curve or what would be desired ranges of frequency?


Does he need to model the room?
Take an in room measurement?
Or does it suffice to know what freq range to concentrate on, say first and then expand.

So, I think is a song or track that OP likes, and now at low level he finds it lacking.
Even IF I was in his room, I will not hear what he is now hearing. So I need to know like .. 3:25 into this track this sound now is not Good. And describe just what is lost. Say it is the conga sound…
Ok, conga is (x hz to y hz) and IF a snare is struck at the same time it is worse.

So, narrowing it down to actual instruments Voices on a specific track and look at that.
Can we adjust, make it clearer somehow
Not for My hearing, but for his. He is gonna have to do this himself. Ultimately that is the mission

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Thank you for the compliments.

It is slightly unclear to me if @NZS is experiencing one problem or two, and if they are related.

1) The problem clearly stated is that he is able to discern less detail and dynamics at lower volume
2) Between the lines it sounds a bit like he is turning down the volume not because he has to, but because listening at higher volumes is less enjoyable (and more fatiguing?) than before?


To the first problem, I think it's just a natural consequence of less volume. Less volume will literally mean less dynamic range, and it is also natural that details will be more difficult to hear then when the volume is lower. Some tonal adjustments (loudness button was mentioned) to compensate for this is not a bad approach. A full bass and midbass in particular is often helpful to get the impression of dynamics at lower volumes. Sometimes we increase the deepest bass to compensate for low volume, but drown out the midbass and midrange as a result.

To the second problem it would be interesting to understand more.

A measurement of each speaker individually from the listening position is always helpful to understand what is happening.

sigbergaudio said:

@mtemur Sound doesn't generally "bounce off" rock wool. It absorbs the sound, that's the point of putting it there in the first place.

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Unfortunately that's not accurate. no material absorbs sound totally. Every material -even it has high absorption characteristics- still reflects sound. Also the absorption characteristic is not linear across frequency spectrum, some materials can reflect certain frequencies without any attenuation while absorbing others.

sigbergaudio said:

I have never heard or experienced someone having increased fatigue by a less reflective room.

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You misunderstood. I didn't say I prefer reflective room or I have increased fatigue because of reducing reflections in the room. I said I have fatigue because of synthetic treatments. Synthetic materials like rock wool, sponge etc are not the only ones that can be used for treating a room nor all rooms without rock wool are reflective.

Let me give you an example; you say you don't like hip hop music, it's causing fatigue and he responds "oh, you don't like bass, vocals!" and he adds "I don't understand why good music is giving you fatigue?".

mtemur said:

Unfortunately that's not accurate. no material absorbs sound totally. Every material -even it has high absorption characteristics- still reflects sound. Also the absorption characteristic is not linear across frequency spectrum, some materials can reflect certain frequencies without any attenuation while absorbing others.


You misunderstood. I didn't say I prefer reflective room or I have increased fatigue because of reducing reflections in the room. I said I have fatigue because of synthetic treatments. Synthetic materials like rock wool, sponge etc are not the only ones that can be used for treating a room nor all rooms without rock wool are reflective.

Let me give you an example; you say you don't like hip hop music, it's causing fatigue and he responds "oh, you don't like bass, vocals!" and he adds "I don't understand why good music is giving you fatigue?".

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Sorry, yes I misunderstood you somewhat. I still don't necessarily agree, but then I at least understood better what you meant.

I am also aware that materials do not absorb in a linear manner. Most materials like rockwool and similar don't however typically reflect much sound, but (as I am sure you know) depending on the thickness of the material they won't be able to stop the lower frequencies, so the sound goes through and is reflected, not by the acoustic panel itself, but by the surface behind the acoustic material.

sigbergaudio said:

I am also aware that materials do not absorb in a linear manner. Most materials like rockwool and similar don't however typically reflect much sound, but (as I am sure you know) depending on the thickness of the material they won't be able to stop the lower frequencies, so the sound goes through and is reflected, not by the acoustic panel itself, but by the surface behind the acoustic material.

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You are right depending on the wave length (frequency) sound can pass through treatment material and can be reflected by the wall behind it. Or if the wave length is high enough it can pass through the wall. I remember adding 3mm lead plate back of a sound absorbing material IOT increase effectiveness but that was for something else than music.

On the other hand same material is not hundred percent effective absorbing shorter wave lengths. It reflects up to a degree (%20-30 etc) even on the wave length that highest absorption (%70-80 etc) occurs. that is my concern. Reflected portion of the sound from those synthetic materials sound bad to my ears. IMHO gives more harm than good.

mtemur said:

You are right depending on the wave length (frequency) sound can pass through treatment material and can be reflected by the wall behind it. Or if the wave length is high enough it can pass through the wall. I remember adding 3mm lead plate back of a sound absorbing material IOT increase effectiveness but that was for something else than music.

On the other hand same material is not hundred percent effective absorbing shorter wave lengths. It reflects up to a degree (%20-30 etc) even on the wave length that highest absorption (%70-80 etc) occurs. that is my concern. Reflected portion of the sound from those synthetic materials sound bad to my ears. IMHO gives more harm than good.

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(Not trying to argue for the sake of it, it's an interesting discussion)

To be precise I am not sure I would agree that rockwool is a synthetic material, it's literally rock wool, so made out of rock and potentially some recycled material. I don't have too much experience with using it as acoustic material myself, as here in Norway an insulation made up of glass wool (which I also would not consider synthetic) is more common. So to my understanding these are both mineral based, not synthetic.

Despite that fact, you may still find that it doesn't work well for you of course.

EDIT: I guess compared to for instance wool from an actual sheep, you could consider it synthetic in the sense that it is fabricated / man made.

The best low volume speakers are single drivers. Especially ones with light cones and a very flexible suspension. Then the amp must have a great 1st watt, so a good SET amp. Use very neutral speaker cables (UPOCC silver) including in the cabinet, since there is no crossover at all the speaker cables make a large difference.

At different price ranges, Omega and AER are the two I'd consider. I've owned both and my my own horn speaker uses a custom wideband midrange I worked with Omega to design.

Most other speakers and amps require a certain amount of power to work properly, a simple and relatively inexpensive single driver and SET amp can't be beat for low volume and even at moderate volume certain types of simpler acoustic and vocal music is presented in a superior way vs a more conventional system.

Also, with single drivers a "nearfield" setup is possible, Pull speakers into the room and sit close to them. Experiment with spacing and toe-in to get the soundstage result you prefer.

sigbergaudio said:

…

EDIT: I guess compared to for instance wool from an actual sheep, you could consider it synthetic in the sense that it is fabricated / man made.

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Kiwis would have access to sheep(s),

According to arthur salvatore.....the lower you can turn the volume down with all the music being there the better the component is

chet atkins said:

According to arthur salvatore.....the lower you can turn the volume down with all the music being there the better the component is

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On a side note, Salvatore just changed his system: https://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html#May

NZS said:

Would be much appreciated for advice in how to achieve low volume sound level playing whilst retaining full clarity, micro details, dynamics, etc. in a small room of 15 m2 (160 square feet).

To date, addressing my room acoustics, isolation, power and upstream feed to a Kinki Studios EX M1 Amplifier and Buchardt S400 Mk II speakers does produce a very good sound.
At a certain volume level, the sound, becomes even more alive, up front, with a more detail soundstage.
This volume level is by no means loud, and to most people with normal hearing including myself not so long ago, this decibel level of sound wouldn’t be a problem or classed excessive, but nowadays, as the years progress, the ears are becoming more sensitive.

• Would changing speakers be a good place to start looking, or addressing the type of amplifier (class, power/head room, current etc) return better results?
• Are there certain speakers better at playing at lower sound levels or certain amps to drive the sound through a speaker at lower sound volume levels and whilst still retaining all the finer details?
• Or does the law of physics play the biggest part in a small room and changing components can only change the outcome marginally if any?

Much appreciate your thoughts.

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Alot of this is a result of the output stage on the DAC itself, the DAC voltage between RCAs and Balanced outputs, as well as the gain on your preamp. It's all a collective picture with the speakers, DAC, amp, and Preamp working together but the DAC voltage will be a signifcant contributor to your low volume listening. I literally wake up, get a cup of coffee and listen at volume setting 1 on my preamp while everyone sleeps soundly and get all the details I would get as if it were at level 20 on the preamp. I think the higher end DACs do this better than more affordable dacs.

skids929 said:

Alot of this is a result of the output stage on the DAC itself, the DAC voltage between RCAs and Balanced outputs, as well as the gain on your preamp. It's all a collective picture with the speakers, DAC, amp, and Preamp working together but the DAC voltage will be a signifcant contributor to your low volume listening. I literally wake up, get a cup of coffee and listen at volume setting 1 on my preamp while everyone sleeps soundly and get all the details I would get as if it were at level 20 on the preamp. I think the higher end DACs do this better than more affordable dacs.

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How does ^all that^ affect post #17?

NZS said:

…
Analogue is a Rega turntable.

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