What's Best in Mid-Tier Cables

Cellcbern said:
There are companies that make basic wire and/or assemble cables, and then there are companies that research and continually innovate in order to improve cable performance. Allnic, Lessloss, Shunyata, and Townshend for example, are innovators, whose cables perform on a whole different level from the likes of Belden, Goetz, and Supra, all of which I've tried.

FYI:

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As it happens Shunyata is the only premium brand I tried. I sold them and use Puritan and Supra. I use Belden speaker and Ethernet cables. Belden is a $2.5billion turnover company. 5T00UP is their most popular speaker cable. I suspect they do vastly more research than any home-brew audiophile cable company. 5T00UP is widely used for professional use. I had Townshend Isolda, but they were too short after a room change and I have no issues with the 5T00UP.

I also use Belden 19364 mains cable from my consumer unit to my modem and switch. I use Neotech 4003 to my hifi because I needed a more flexible cable.
 
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ssfas said:
So I am looking at cables in the ~$3k range which (unfortunately or not) is the mid-tier of cabling these days.

As it happens Shunyata is the only premium brand I tried. I sold them and use Puritan and Supra.
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Its what works for you and if you are not spending a ton of money, and it sounds good, then good for you. Supra and Puritan are well built.
 
ssfas said:
As it happens Shunyata is the only premium brand I tried. I sold them and use Puritan and Supra. I use Belden speaker and Ethernet cables. Belden is a $2.5billion turnover company. 5T00UP is their most popular speaker cable. I suspect they do vastly more research than any home-brew audiophile cable company. 5T00UP is widely used for professional use. I had Townshend Isolda, but they were too short after a room change and I have no issues with the 5T00UP.

I also use Belden 19364 mains cable from my consumer unit to my modem and switch. I use Neotech 4003 to my hifi because I needed a more flexible cable.
Click to expand...
Which Shunyata model?
 
Over the years I have tried a variety of audiophile cables with different systems, done A/B/A testing, and reviewed several. Among those are: Audioquest, FMS, Nordost, Kimber, a bunch from Shunyata, Goertz, Silver Audio (phono), Siltech (phono), Kondo (phono) LessLoss and others. They all bring something to the table that differentiates them from their competitors and each brand has its own talking points. Imo, the character of a cable or cable brand is best discovered by using a full loom of the same model -- that does not mean to use or not use a loom, but it is easier to discern what the cable is doing versus evaluating a cable among a mix of different brands.

My conclusion about audiophile cables is they tend to be somewhat gear specific, that is certain brands of cables work better with certain brands of components than other brands. My preference is for cables that are less invasive to the character of your components. If I need a cable to correct or compensate for a component, I likely have the wrong component.
 
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tima said:
My conclusion about audiophile cables is they tend to be somewhat gear specific, that is certain brands of cables work better with certain brands of components than other brands.
Click to expand...
Did you find the conclusion about gear specificity to be more related to brand or to input impedance and output impedance of the components in that brand? (Or does that tend to be the same thing if brands tend to design different components within their line with the same input impedances and output impedances?)
 
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Cellcbern said:
Which Shunyata model?
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I can't remember. They weren't the cheapest, certainly not the most expensive.

All this talk of research - it's almost never backed up with any evidence. Most developments in hifi over the years have been achieved by major enterprises. Think Bell Labs, the BBC Research Department, Texas Instruments, Sony, Phillips. Joe Schmuck doesn't have the money, facilities and rarely the skill to do any meaningful research. I just looked up Westminster Labs. Nice looking products, reviews say they perform well. Mr Cheung explains on his website that he was a hobbyist who learnt circuits working in a repair shop. He's not got relevant qualifications, he's an architect by training. This has been a very common path in audio history. Think PS Audio and Harbeth (although Harbeth was founded by the former Head of BBC Research) among many others, and this route has resulted in many fine products. However, they don't reinvent the wheel, they don't research, they just do good engineering with existing technology. The Lanedri guy goes on endlessly about research, but he's worked his life in financial regulation and never responded to my asking just for a picture of his so-called laboratory. The QSA guy posted on Youtube his burning device, which apparently is known in Hong Kong DIY circles.

So I've tended to stick to large companies that make to specification, preferably by automated machines. I have hand-made furniture, and it's expensive, because the design is bespoke and it's made for our house. No so my hifi. I use Puritan because they are uniquely flexible, whereas the Shunyata was a total pain and drove me nuts. I do have a couple of signal cables made by Dr Sean Jacobs. He is local. He's a proper scientist, with a doctorate in signalling and robotics. I also have a tonearm cable made up by Mark Sears because I wanted a cable wired as balanced (not all are). His research is published on his site (Vinyl Passion). He's done some metallurgy work and uses Ultrapure silver.
 
tima said:
Over the years I have tried a variety of audiophile cables with different systems, done A/B/A testing, and reviewed several. Among those are: Audioquest, FMS, Nordost, Kimber, a bunch from Shunyata, Goertz, Silver Audio (phono), Siltech (phono), Kondo (phono) LessLoss and others. They all bring something to the table that differentiates them from their competitors and each brand has its own talking points. Imo, the character of a cable or cable brand is best discovered by using a full loom of the same model -- that does not mean to use or not use a loom, but it is easier to discern what the cable is doing versus evaluating a cable among a mix of different brands.

My conclusion about audiophile cables is they tend to be somewhat gear specific, that is certain brands of cables work better with certain brands of components than other brands. My preference is for cables that are less invasive to the character of your components. If I need a cable to correct or compensate for a component, I likely have the wrong component.
Click to expand...
How do you determine that particular cables are “less invasive to the character of your components”? Have you figured out a way to listen to your components without cables, thereby determining their independent character?Is it not the case that the only thing that we can actually listen to is the interaction between a component and multiple cables? If we can’t do A-B-A with and without cables then how do we know that it is neutral cables letting the sound of our components through unedited vs. cables offsetting deficiencies in our components? Perhaps what happens is that when we find the best component/cable synergy we assume that we have neutral cables.
 
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ssfas said:
I can't remember. They weren't the cheapest, certainly not the most expensive.

All this talk of research - it's almost never backed up with any evidence. Most developments in hifi over the years have been achieved by major enterprises. Think Bell Labs, the BBC Research Department, Texas Instruments, Sony, Phillips. Joe Schmuck doesn't have the money, facilities and rarely the skill to do any meaningful research. I just looked up Westminster Labs. Nice looking products, reviews say they perform well. Mr Cheung explains on his website that he was a hobbyist who learnt circuits working in a repair shop. He's not got relevant qualifications, he's an architect by training. This has been a very common path in audio history. Think PS Audio and Harbeth (although Harbeth was founded by the former Head of BBC Research) among many others, and this route has resulted in many fine products. However, they don't reinvent the wheel, they don't research, they just do good engineering with existing technology. The Lanedri guy goes on endlessly about research, but he's worked his life in financial regulation and never responded to my asking just for a picture of his so-called laboratory. The QSA guy posted on Youtube his burning device, which apparently is known in Hong Kong DIY circles.

So I've tended to stick to large companies that make to specification, preferably by automated machines. I have hand-made furniture, and it's expensive, because the design is bespoke and it's made for our house. No so my hifi. I use Puritan because they are uniquely flexible, whereas the Shunyata was a total pain and drove me nuts. I do have a couple of signal cables made by Dr Sean Jacobs. He is local. He's a proper scientist, with a doctorate in signalling and robotics. I also have a tonearm cable made up by Mark Sears because I wanted a cable wired as balanced (not all are). His research is published on his site (Vinyl Passion). He's done some metallurgy work and uses Ultrapure silver.
Click to expand...
This is one of the reasons I like products from Analysis Plus as they cut their teeth so to speak in professional audio and do have scientific, engineering to support their designs and patents. I also let my ears tell me what works in my system and what doesn’t, I use their research and design papers, publications as a base line. Also may of these companies have collaborated in research and design.
 
Republicoftexas69 said:
This is one of the reasons I like products from Analysis Plus as they cut their teeth so to speak in professional audio and do have scientific, engineering to support their designs and patents. I also let my ears tell me what works in my system and what doesn’t, I use their research and design papers, publications as a base line. Also may of these companies have collaborated in research and design.
Click to expand...
Certainly an interesting company with their own ideas on topology. I read the technical papers. Some sensible prices as well. Must be quite expensive to make.
 
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Cellcbern said:
How do you determine that particular cables are “less invasive to the character of your components”? Have you figured out a way to listen to your components without cables, thereby determining their independent character?Is it not the case that the only thing that we can actually listen to is the interaction between a component and multiple cables? If we can’t do A-B-A with and without cables then how do we know that it is neutral cables letting the sound of our components through unedited vs. cables offsetting eccentricities in our components? Perhaps what happens is that when we find the best component/cable synergy we assume that we have neutral cables.
Click to expand...

I"ve dettermined that particular cables are less invasive to the character of my components by trying different cables, many of whom are listed in my prior post.

I'm well aware of the issue you raise. Of course cables can have impact on the sound of the components they connect, so that impact, whatever it is, is unavoidable given that we use cables to connect components. Based on my experience I find that the audiophile cables I've tried tend to have more impact on sound than not. That can be a good thing or not depending on what you're after.

If you want minimal cable impact, how do you find the right cable for your system? Unfortunately it is a process of discovery that requires listening to multiple examples. That could be an endless quest, but I believe there are ways to shorten the search.

One way is to try an industrial grade, pro-audio or non-audiophile cable for a few weeks. It is a bit iffy to generalize though what I've found is several of these nring less character to my system than most audiophile cables. There is a wide selection of those that can be had made up with connectors for relatively little money, -- say less than $100 for 6ft and a 25ft runs, so it is a low cost experiement. I've bought direct or used a company called Markertek to try several. (This is a great way to avoid the cost of long cable runs to allow keeping components some distance from amplifiers and speakers.)

Ask for recommendations on audio forums and try a set. The ability to describe to yourself what your hear using some consistent vocabulary is a key to success. Use a broad set of characteristics and a variety of the music you listen to most. The idea is come up with a baseline for evaluation. It can really help if you have a reference for the sound you prefer. I use the sound of live acoustic music as my reference.

After a couple weeks replace those with your previous audiophile cables and describe the differences you hear in the same language. Not so much in terms of this is 'better' than that, but what exactly is better.

Repeat the above with a different set of audiophile cables. Alternatively you can do a compare with another brand of industrial / non-audiophile cable. What I found is that among, say five different industrial cables I do hear differences but those differences are less explicit than the difference between an industrial and audiophile cables. Most of the audiophile cables I've tried bring some sort of emphasis to the music.

There is no neutral but certain cables are more neutral than others relative to your components. If you can winnow down to one or two cables you find relatively more neutral, you can stay there if that is what you like, or you can use that to evaluate audiophile cables with a better idea of what the audiophile cable is doing in your system. If you want to change the sound of your components, you should now have a better understanding of what change(s) you want to make. I'm not saying don't use an audiophile cable. I'm saying that I'm happy with the sound of the components I have and I am not looking to add or subtract from that sound with a cable.
 
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Ron Resnick said:
Did you find the conclusion about gear specificity to be more related to brand or to input impedance and output impedance of the components in that brand? (Or does that tend to be the same thing if brands tend to design different components within their line with the same input impedances and output impedances?)
Click to expand...

What I've found is if a particular cable works for me with components from a particular brand of gear, that same cable tends to work with other components from that brand. For example, a cable that works well with an ARC Ref 2 phonostage is likely to work well with an ARC 3SE phonostage and an ARC Ref10 phonostage. I don't pay much attention to LCR numbers -- some might say that's heresy. I assess based on what I hear. I'm speaking only to my experience with the gear I've had.
 
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As it happens, I'm about to buy a 1m DIN-RCA phono cable from Yannis Tome. Silver Litz with a Zavfino DIN and his own manufactured 110Ag locking RCA. £372 (about $470) delivered, including sales tax. Extremely well made to order, been doing it for years, no brand pricing. If you want branded connectors, no worries, just pay a bit more. A pair of 1.5m RCA are £490. Artisan Silver Cables make a near identical silver braid/Litz cable in teflon for £449 for a 1.5m RCA pair. Similar cables from Vinyl Passion are the same price, Zavfino Highlander is only slightly more expensive.

Seems that if you take away the branding and dealer margin, you get a lot of very similar high quality products are at a very similar price.
 
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tima said:
I"ve dettermined that particular cables are less invasive to the character of my components by trying different cables, many of whom are listed in my prior post.

I'm well aware of the issue you raise. Of course cables can have impact on the sound of the components they connect, so that impact, whatever it is, is unavoidable given that we use cables to connect components. Based on my experience I find that the audiophile cables I've tried tend to have more impact on sound than not. That can be a good thing or not depending on what you're after.

If you want minimal cable impact, how do you find the right cable for your system? Unfortunately it is a process of discovery that requires listening to multiple examples. That could be an endless quest, but I believe there are ways to shorten the search.

One way is to try an industrial grade, pro-audio or non-audiophile cable for a few weeks. It is a bit iffy to generalize though what I've found is several of these nring less character to my system than most audiophile cables. There is a wide selection of those that can be had made up with connectors for relatively little money, -- say less than $100 for 6ft and a 25ft runs, so it is a low cost experiement. I've bought direct or used a company called Markertek to try several. (This is a great way to avoid the cost of long cable runs to allow keeping components some distance from amplifiers and speakers.)

Ask for recommendations on audio forums and try a set. The ability to describe to yourself what your hear using some consistent vocabulary is a key to success. Use a broad set of characteristics and a variety of the music you listen to most. The idea is come up with a baseline for evaluation. It can really help if you have a reference for the sound you prefer. I use the sound of live acoustic music as my reference.

After a couple weeks replace those with your previous audiophile cables and describe the differences you hear in the same language. Not so much in terms of this is 'better' than that, but what exactly is better.

Repeat the above with a different set of audiophile cables. Alternatively you can do a compare with another brand of industrial / non-audiophile cable. What I found is that among, say five different industrial cables I do hear differences but those differences are less explicit than the difference between an industrial and audiophile cables. Most of the audiophile cables I've tried bring some sort of emphasis to the music.

There is no neutral but certain cables are more neutral than others relative to your components. If you can winnow down to one or two cables you find relatively more neutral, you can stay there if that is what you like, or you can use that to evaluate audiophile cables with a better idea of what the audiophile cable is doing in your system. If you want to change the sound of your components, you should now have a better understanding of what change(s) you want to make. I'm not saying don't use an audiophile cable. I'm saying that I'm happy with the sound of the components I have and I am not looking to add or subtract from that sound with a cable.
Click to expand...
Appreciate the thorough response but it ignores the issue I raised. With everything else - components, accessories, tweaks, etc. we demand A-B-A listening tests to determine their impact. Since we cannot listen to components with and without cables you can guess but never really know what the relative impact of each is in a particular component/cable combination. And since you are inevitably using at least two cables with a component there is the interaction between the cables as well as between the cables and component. At the end of the day your explanation above amounts to settling on the cables that sound best to your ears in your system - nothing more, which is fine. That has always worked for me. But the idea that a listener can determine that particular cables are letting more of the sound of their components come through unedited is folly.
 
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Cellcbern said:
Appreciate the thorough response but it ignores the issue I raised. With everything else - components, accessories, tweaks, etc. we demand A-B-A listening tests to determine their impact. Since we cannot listen to components with and without cables you can guess but never really know what the relative impact of each is in a particular component/cable combination. And since you are inevitably using at least two cables with a component there is the interaction between the cables as well as between the cables and component. At the end of the day your explanation above amounts to settling on the cables that sound best to your ears in your system - nothing more, which is fine. That has always worked for me. But the idea that a listener can determine that particular cables are letting more of the sound of their components come through unedited is folly.
Click to expand...
Very well said.
 
Cellcbern said:
Appreciate the thorough response but it ignores the issue I raised. With everything else - components, accessories, tweaks, etc. we demand A-B-A listening tests to determine their impact. Since we cannot listen to components with and without cables you can guess but never really know what the relative impact of each is in a particular component/cable combination. And since you are inevitably using at least two cables with a component there is the interaction between the cables as well as between the cables and component. At the end of the day your explanation above amounts to settling on the cables that sound best to your ears in your system - nothing more, which is fine. That has always worked for me. But the idea that a listener can determine that particular cables are letting more of the sound of their components come through unedited is folly.
Click to expand...

Your system as listed in your profile appears incredibly complex and difficult to simplify to the point where you can understand what contributes to what. So I'll speculate you have not done what I described nor have interest in doing so.

Modified Pathos TT integrated amp (Dueland Cast PIO Tinned Copper Foil caps, etc.) on Marigo Mystery Feet, Upgraded (Eton woofers, Fostex FT96-EX2 tweeters, custom crossover and wiring) Bache speakers with Bybee Quantum Clarifiers on driver magnets, on Isoacoustics Gaia footers; Modwright Marantz SA8005 on Dalby Lignum Vitae feet/PS 9.0 power supply on ASI Top Line feet, with custom Double Helix umbilical; Wellfoat boards under amp, player, and power supply; Verastarr GI speaker cables; Shunyata Alpha V2 rca; Allnic ZL5000, Hemingway Z-Core Beta, Echole Omnia, and Lessloss CMARC Entropic AC cables; Bybee Wire Dark Matter Stealth AC conditioner with Lessloss Firewall 640X CMARC, and Furutech Flux 50 (G);
dedicated 20A line and breaker box, with EP-2050 on main panel, Oyaide R-1 w/WPC-Z base/cover; Puritan Groundmaster City signal grounding, Bybee IQSE's, Shakti 'Air' Stones, Quantum Physics Noise Disruptors, Akiko Tuning Sticks, Puron and Furutech Clear Line filters, SR Purple fuses.
 
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tima said:
Your system as listed in your profile appears incredibly complex and difficult to simplify to the point where you can understand what contributes to what. So I'll speculate you have not done what I described nor have interest in doing so.

Modified Pathos TT integrated amp (Dueland Cast PIO Tinned Copper Foil caps, etc.) on Marigo Mystery Feet, Upgraded (Eton woofers, Fostex FT96-EX2 tweeters, custom crossover and wiring) Bache speakers with Bybee Quantum Clarifiers on driver magnets, on Isoacoustics Gaia footers; Modwright Marantz SA8005 on Dalby Lignum Vitae feet/PS 9.0 power supply on ASI Top Line feet, with custom Double Helix umbilical; Wellfoat boards under amp, player, and power supply; Verastarr GI speaker cables; Shunyata Alpha V2 rca; Allnic ZL5000, Hemingway Z-Core Beta, Echole Omnia, and Lessloss CMARC Entropic AC cables; Bybee Wire Dark Matter Stealth AC conditioner with Lessloss Firewall 640X CMARC, and Furutech Flux 50 (G);
dedicated 20A line and breaker box, with EP-2050 on main panel, Oyaide R-1 w/WPC-Z base/cover; Puritan Groundmaster City signal grounding, Bybee IQSE's, Shakti 'Air' Stones, Quantum Physics Noise Disruptors, Akiko Tuning Sticks, Puron and Furutech Clear Line filters, SR Purple fuses.
Click to expand...
Actually my system is pretty straightforward - integrated amp, sacd player w/separate power supply, and speakers, with power via a dedicated 20A line and power conditioner. All of this requires four power cables, one pair of interconnects and speaker cables, and a DC umbilical. I have settled on the cables (and tweaks) I own via listening to a lot of different brands/models selected based on reading reviews, what I've heard at shows and dealers, and recommendations from audiophile club members and colleagues. I do have a lot of tweaks, and as I have mentioned several times on this forum, the ones I've kept have survived me (more than once) removing them all, listening without, and replacing them one at a time to verify that the system is better with them. Since I am pleased with the mix of cables (and system performance) I have, and haven't had trouble over the years finding audiophile cables that worked well in my system, I've never felt the need to "minimize cable impact". It follows that I've had/have no motivation to go through the process you described. I have tried industrial/pro audio cables in my systems over the years, out of curiosity, at the suggestion of a colleague, and as part of an audiophile club budget cable test, but haven't heard any that I wanted to keep.
 
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There are some things you can listen for to determine how neutral a cable is, but it's always going to be relative.

The first is resolution. Resolution is key for good spatial presentation and convincing timbre, and the key to achieving a 3-D immersive feel with a "you are there" soundstage. It takes really good interconnect cables to make this happen. I've heard many systems completely transformed simply by replacing a Belden or Mogami level cable with a good UPOCC silver cable. Interconnect cables are the most common bottleneck in audio systems.

Another is warmth, it's necessary for achieving realistic tonality and for mitigating imperfections in the system and recording, this is important to avoid fatigue. A lot of personal preference is at play here. In general, more warmth = less resolution, but it's possible to have a slightly warm cable with excellent resolution and this is the main goal of ZenWave cables. It is true that added warmth means less neutral though.

Recognizing noise and artifacts. What's tricky here is a lot of this can be a subjective preference. Noise can push the soundstage forward and make for a more stimulating sound. It can also accentuate leading edges. We need some amount of stimulation, but too much causes fatigue. A lot of what you pay for in a cable is the absence of noise and artifacts. Other additions are grain, often from impure metals like brass connectors or the effect of stranded wire. glare and sheen from a combination of triboelectric noise and cable capacitance, which is part of the "sound of silver" but is all but absent on a good silver cable. There's harshness from low quality wire, like low purity silver, you really need 5N+ silver for audio. Impure copper has it's own sound. What is common to all noise and artifacts is a reduction in overall resolution to varying degrees. Some kinds of noise or artifacts are relatively benign, but some can be quite fatiguing. Some may sound exciting at first but then cause fatigue later.
 
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DaveC said:
In general, more warmth = less resolution,
Click to expand...
Hello Dave,

Would you elaborate on this, please?

Does more warmth lead objectively to less resolution for some reason? In other words is there something about the cable metallurgy or winding or construction which causes the warmth to also cause actually less resolution?

Or does a warmer cable simply de-emphasize the presence region which has the subjective effect of sounding less detailed and less resolving? (Or does a cooler, brighter-sounding cable emphasize the presence region which has the subjective effect of sounding more detailed and more resolving?)
 
I suppose the approach I take to my system is oriented to using components whose sound does not require enhancement or modification from cables or tweaks to achieve a fairly high level of believability. I've come to a point where I prefer gear whose sound does not need curating from other gear. It has taken awhile to get there.
 
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