To Sub Or Not To Sub, That Is The Question

Mr. Miyagi

Mr. Miyagi

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Mar 11, 2024
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I am pushing 87db speakers that have hybrid Lattice tweeter and go from 32 Hz to 40 kHz with 6 Ohms average 3.2 Ohms minimum.

I had JL F112v with CR1 Crossover. I simply could not get the subs dialed in. I called JL audio, you would need a PHD from NASA to get these subs to dial in. I gave up and am disconnected them. Running speakers full range and things sound more clear for sure.

I am contemplating buying the Rel Carbons.

Question: Some experts say (i) Dont use subs you are adding complexity and getting in the way of the spekears (ii) add subs for soundstage and it will open up speakers with less stress. Crossover at 50hz, 60hz, no do it at 30hz with low gain. No add more gain.

To boot, there are almost no experts that actually no how to work the crossover and the JL subs. Their implied marketshare for 2 channel must be half of rel given the lack of expertise.

Experts also say "no one uses JLaudio for 2 channel its just for movies, they are too slow. Need Rel."

I am under the impression that 9/10 times the best sounding rooms at shows do not use subs. If this is incorrect would want to know. Theoretically if dealers are trying to sell their gear they would have an incentive to pull out all the stops to make the room sound as good as possible.

I am dealing with 19x11x9 foot room.


So, to sub or not to sub, that is the question.
 
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My speaker spec is about the same and my room is similar, just a little wider.

I tried a REL S/812. Total waste of time and money. Delighted how my room sounds without.

Some people just like a lot more bass.

Dependent on your taste in music. Recently I was listening to bass-heavy speakers. Lots of stuff sounded horrible to me, but choral music with no bass sounded fine. The owner thought his speakers were bass-light.
 
Sounds like you need to find someone who can help set up the sub. I would definitely choose a JL over an REL sub FWIWFM. And "too slow" is just not a thing with subs, that's marketing.

Here is my ancient "why subs"" post:

Why Subs?

I use subs, and have for decades, for all the usual reasons:

- Very (perhaps extremely) few "large" speakers actually play well below 40 Hz let alone 20 Hz. They distort heavily when presented with large bass signals (which most are -- see Fletcher-Munson) and driving them hard down low robs headroom for higher frequencies and causes distortion well above the fundamental signal frequency (harmonic and nasty intermodulation). Subs typically enable the mains to operate with much lower distortion.

- Very rare is the room setup such that the best place for stereo imaging and soundfield is the best place for the subs (or deep bass drivers) to counter room modes and such. Having independent subs provides placement options to smooth the in-room response. It is almost impossible to counter a null without subs (typically must move the MLP or change the room's dimensions though there are purpose-built panels that can also work). This is one of the things that led me to subs despite having quite capable mains.

- Powered subs offload the main amplifiers of the need to provide deep bass energy, providing more headroom and cleaner sound from the amplifiers.

- Music (let alone action movies) often contains deep bass content even if it is not real obvious. Kick drums, tympani, organ, sure, but also piano hammer strikes, plucked strings, beat patterns from instruments playing together, etc. May not really notice when they are there but usually obvious when they are taken away. Having subs fill in the bottom octave or three can make a difference.

- Purpose-built subs can provide high output cleanly at relatively low cost. The amplifiers and drivers need only cover a fairly limited frequency range so have fewer constraints upon them than woofers in a full-range system.

I do prefer main speakers with fairly deep bass and always have. Crossovers are not brick walls so a fair amount of energy still comes from the mains an octave below the crossover frequency. Higher-order crossovers allow you to reduce the overlap, but I still like having the capability. I have never really understood the idea of running "passive" bi-amping as implemented by an AVR (sending full-range signals to multiple channels and letting the speaker's crossovers separate frequency bands -- wastes amplifier headroom and seems to me of little benefit). Nor do I agree with the "plus" setting putting subs and mains in parallel; again, my idea has always been to isolate the two for the reasons above.

My first sub was a DIY design using an Infinity IRS woofer with my own control box to provide the crossover and a servo circuit using the second voice coil of the woofer. I had a Hafler DH-220 around so also incorporated a circuit to bridge it for use as a subwoofer amp. It worked well and the -3 dB point was ~16 Hz. I now run four small (F12) Rythmik subs using a similar (but updated) servo design with my Revel Salon2's and am happy with the result.

FWIWFM/IME/IMO/my 0.000001 cent (microcent) - Don
 
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DonH50 said:
Sounds like you need to find someone who can help set up the sub. I would definitely choose a JL over an REL sub FWIWFM. And "too slow" is just not a thing with subs, that's marketing.

Here is my ancient "why subs"" post:

Why Subs?

I use subs, and have for decades, for all the usual reasons:

- Very (perhaps extremely) few "large" speakers actually play well below 40 Hz let alone 20 Hz. They distort heavily when presented with large bass signals (which most are -- see Fletcher-Munson) and driving them hard down low robs headroom for higher frequencies and causes distortion well above the fundamental signal frequency (harmonic and nasty intermodulation). Subs typically enable the mains to operate with much lower distortion.

- Very rare is the room setup such that the best place for stereo imaging and soundfield is the best place for the subs (or deep bass drivers) to counter room modes and such. Having independent subs provides placement options to smooth the in-room response. It is almost impossible to counter a null without subs (typically must move the MLP or change the room's dimensions though there are purpose-built panels that can also work). This is one of the things that led me to subs despite having quite capable mains.

- Powered subs offload the main amplifiers of the need to provide deep bass energy, providing more headroom and cleaner sound from the amplifiers.

- Music (let alone action movies) often contains deep bass content even if it is not real obvious. Kick drums, tympani, organ, sure, but also piano hammer strikes, plucked strings, beat patterns from instruments playing together, etc. May not really notice when they are there but usually obvious when they are taken away. Having subs fill in the bottom octave or three can make a difference.

- Purpose-built subs can provide high output cleanly at relatively low cost. The amplifiers and drivers need only cover a fairly limited frequency range so have fewer constraints upon them than woofers in a full-range system.

I do prefer main speakers with fairly deep bass and always have. Crossovers are not brick walls so a fair amount of energy still comes from the mains an octave below the crossover frequency. Higher-order crossovers allow you to reduce the overlap, but I still like having the capability. I have never really understood the idea of running "passive" bi-amping as implemented by an AVR (sending full-range signals to multiple channels and letting the speaker's crossovers separate frequency bands -- wastes amplifier headroom and seems to me of little benefit). Nor do I agree with the "plus" setting putting subs and mains in parallel; again, my idea has always been to isolate the two for the reasons above.

My first sub was a DIY design using an Infinity IRS woofer with my own control box to provide the crossover and a servo circuit using the second voice coil of the woofer. I had a Hafler DH-220 around so also incorporated a circuit to bridge it for use as a subwoofer amp. It worked well and the -3 dB point was ~16 Hz. I now run four small (F12) Rythmik subs using a similar (but updated) servo design with my Revel Salon2's and am happy with the result.

FWIWFM/IME/IMO/my 0.000001 cent (microcent) - Don
Click to expand...
Thanks what is the rationale for rel vs JL ?
 
Danielaruso said:
Thanks what is the rationale for rel vs JL ?
Click to expand...
IME JL provides better performance and much greater flexibility in their controls. I am also not a fan of REL's claim that using high-level inputs to "match" sub and main speaker sounds is valid, nor of leaving the mains running full range since that obviates some of the largest advantages of using subs.

Opinions vary.

I responded to your PM.
 
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I prefer to use subwoofers in my system, because in my experience subwoofers can improve everything across the audio spectrum. I prefer subwoofers that disappear and you really don't understand their impact until you turn them off. I've owned multiple JL Audio subwoofers with their CR1, Martin Logan, HSU, SVS, and REL subwoofers. I prefer REL sealed subwoofers in my system. I don't like REL subwoofers with the passive down firing radiator. I don't tell people what to purchase, because all systems, rooms, and preferences are different. I suggest you listen to different subwoofers and choose what works best for you.

​

 
Most if not all the subs being discussed is good for HT , so not surprised to hear your dilemma , especially if you are already running what is basically a Fullrange loudspeaker , a sub will not bring anything to the table .

Your mains should be sealed for best results and if vented try plugging your port and then try to adjust your subs again ..

This may help your situation ...!

As to fast or slow sounding Subs , this has a lot to do with freq as well as driver mass and displacement , the lower you make the xover freq , the greater the perception of the loss of “speed” .

Now if your speakers already has a full balance of sound with good timbre the. Additional bass will smear this as you would have destroyed the balance designed into your loudspeaker , so most likely you will end up lowering and lowering the drive of your subwoofer till its non existent and then out the door .




Good luck :)


Danielaruso said:
I am pushing 87db speakers that have hybrid Lattice tweeter and go from 32 Hz to 40 kHz with 6 Ohms average 3.2 Ohms minimum.

I had JL F112v with CR1 Crossover. I simply could not get the subs dialed in. I called JL audio, you would need a PHD from NASA to get these subs to dial in. I gave up and am disconnected them. Running speakers full range and things sound more clear for sure.

I am contemplating buying the Rel Carbons.

Question: Some experts say (i) Dont use subs you are adding complexity and getting in the way of the spekears (ii) add subs for soundstage and it will open up speakers with less stress. Crossover at 50hz, 60hz, no do it at 30hz with low gain. No add more gain.

To boot, there are almost no experts that actually no how to work the crossover and the JL subs. Their implied marketshare for 2 channel must be half of rel given the lack of expertise.

Experts also say "no one uses JLaudio for 2 channel its just for movies, they are too slow. Need Rel."

I am under the impression that 9/10 times the best sounding rooms at shows do not use subs. If this is incorrect would want to know. Theoretically if dealers are trying to sell their gear they would have an incentive to pull out all the stops to make the room sound as good as possible.

I am dealing with 19x11x9 foot room.


So, to sub or not to sub, that is the question.
Click to expand...
 
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I am one who has used a sub in the system for many many years (music and video) and would not trade it. In fact, I am looking to create much MORE air displacement capability in the system in the sub 40hz range to explore how that opens up the sound and creates a greater sense of venue, eases the scale of music and also roots a more real foundation to the music.

In my experience, the sub on means when listening to a jazz club recording, the sense of the venue is around you...mute the sub, and instantly, the venue becomes the linear plane of the 2 speakers and behind with some in front of the speakers...no longer AROUND you. It also roots and creates a foundational element to the majority of recordings we listen to: jazz, blues, orchestral, naturally soundtracks and electronic, but even acoustic sessions where stomping on stage or the kick drum reverb through the stage floor all come alive in the sub-hz range.

Yes, blending is critical...and I would be the first to say it has been well done but is not perfect...but I would take having it all day long with its manageable imperfections than not to have it at all.
 
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Danielaruso said:
I am pushing 87db speakers that have hybrid Lattice tweeter and go from 32 Hz to 40 kHz with 6 Ohms average 3.2 Ohms minimum.

I had JL F112v with CR1 Crossover. I simply could not get the subs dialed in. I called JL audio, you would need a PHD from NASA to get these subs to dial in. I gave up and am disconnected them. Running speakers full range and things sound more clear for sure.

I am contemplating buying the Rel Carbons.

Question: Some experts say (i) Dont use subs you are adding complexity and getting in the way of the spekears (ii) add subs for soundstage and it will open up speakers with less stress. Crossover at 50hz, 60hz, no do it at 30hz with low gain. No add more gain.

To boot, there are almost no experts that actually no how to work the crossover and the JL subs. Their implied marketshare for 2 channel must be half of rel given the lack of expertise.

Experts also say "no one uses JLaudio for 2 channel its just for movies, they are too slow. Need Rel."

I am under the impression that 9/10 times the best sounding rooms at shows do not use subs. If this is incorrect would want to know. Theoretically if dealers are trying to sell their gear they would have an incentive to pull out all the stops to make the room sound as good as possible.

I am dealing with 19x11x9 foot room.


So, to sub or not to sub, that is the question.
Click to expand...
Marty uses JLs on his Wilson Vs. to significant effect and his system is superb in every respect. His is one of the better systems I have heard, and I have listened to many:) Another forum member whose system I know well uses JL subs on Sonos Faber Aida's in a relatively modest room with similarly excellent results. I'm not sure it's a problem REL subs will resolve simply because they are better known for two-channel audio.

You mention your speakers produce down to 32hz, so is it the room size or type of music you listen to that makes you feel a subwoofer will provide what's missing? Perhaps a call to Stirling Trayle for a consultation might be a good investment. Believe me, if anyone other than those members who are already making JL subs work well in their systems can help, Stirling would be the man.

Audio Systems Optimized | Petaluma | High End Audio Set-Up

Audio Systems Optimized provides home audio system set-up and optimization services, specializing in high-end turntable and loudspeaker setup.
www.audiosystemsoptimized.com www.audiosystemsoptimized.com
 
Danielaruso said:
I am pushing 87db speakers that have hybrid Lattice tweeter and go from 32 Hz to 40 kHz with 6 Ohms average 3.2 Ohms minimum.

I had JL F112v with CR1 Crossover. I simply could not get the subs dialed in. I called JL audio, you would need a PHD from NASA to get these subs to dial in. I gave up and am disconnected them. Running speakers full range and things sound more clear for sure.

I am contemplating buying the Rel Carbons.

Question: Some experts say (i) Dont use subs you are adding complexity and getting in the way of the spekears (ii) add subs for soundstage and it will open up speakers with less stress. Crossover at 50hz, 60hz, no do it at 30hz with low gain. No add more gain.

To boot, there are almost no experts that actually no how to work the crossover and the JL subs. Their implied marketshare for 2 channel must be half of rel given the lack of expertise.

Experts also say "no one uses JLaudio for 2 channel its just for movies, they are too slow. Need Rel."

I am under the impression that 9/10 times the best sounding rooms at shows do not use subs. If this is incorrect would want to know. Theoretically if dealers are trying to sell their gear they would have an incentive to pull out all the stops to make the room sound as good as possible.

I am dealing with 19x11x9 foot room.


So, to sub or not to sub, that is the question.
Click to expand...
Totally agree with you. I had dual Gotham F213's in my room for years and no matter what I did, they were never dialed in correctly. In fact I had several members here who are speaker manufacturers and they both said the subs are competing with my speakers.. I dont care what you do to dial them in, they will never be properly in phase with your speakers . I dumped them several years ago and have never been happier with my sound
 
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I use active ATC 50s with two JL Audio fathom 110 v2 and the CR-1. I also couldn’t figure out the best way to set them up. I gave up and had a pro set it up. Outstanding. I also the subs for home theater using the processor to handle bass mgmt. before you give up or buy different subs find a pro who has experience with the CR-1. I chuckle every time I read a review where the user easily just “dials it in”. I’m sure many happy users have done that to their satisfaction but that’s not me. I do plan to swap the JL Audio fathoms for a couple of new Harbuckle subs. Much more expensive but my audio pro, Nyal Mellor, Acoustic Frontiers, has never steered me wrong.
 
Harbottle, not Harbuckle
 
steve williams said:
…. In fact I had several members here who are speaker manufacturers and they both said the subs are competing with my speakers.. I dont care what you do to dial them in, they will never be properly in phase with your speakers .
Click to expand...

There are a few more phase option than 0 and (reversed polarity) 180 degrees.
Either the XO in the speakers is in-phase or 180 degrees out of phase, so 0 and 180 make some sense… but as one sneaks towards the XO then the phase can get more complicated.
To blend in well, they need to blend in well phase wise.

If there is no high-pass on the main speakers, then it is easy to envision that adding more low frequency, can become too much… particularly if it was close to enough with just the main speakers.
 
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Holmz said:
There are a few more phase option than 0 and (reversed polarity) 180 degrees.
Either the XO in the speakers is in-phase or 180 degrees out of phase, so 0 and 180 make some sense… but as one sneaks towards the XO then the phase can get more complicated.
To blend in well, they need to blend in well phase wise.

If there is no high-pass on the main speakers, then it is easy to envision that adding more low frequency, can become too much… particularly if it was close to enough with just the main speakers.
Click to expand...
Im quite familiar with the settings. Youre preaching to the choir here. In fact the two speaker manufacturers also gave up. I often wonder how other situate their JL Audio subs well behind their main speakers and fiddle with the settings and proclaim they are in phase. But to each their own. Once I sold them and forgot about them I truly enjoyed my system more. I had them for years in every configuration but they just never sounded correct even though others tried to convince me that they were
 
There are ways to (try to) dial in by ear but I have always used a measurement system to integrate subs and mains. It is very difficult without that, along with a sharp crossover roll off, otherwise it can be hard to avoid competition with the mains as Steve and others have said. Decades ago I quickly discovered 18 dB/oct (third order) or better (steeper) was required depending upon the speakers and sub. Recently all crossovers have been 24 dB/oct Linkwitz-Riley designs that make life much easier, along with continuous phase control (or time delay), either in the subs or more recently my AVP (JBL SDP-75, a tweaked Trinnov Altitude 32). My system does dual duty, music (stereo/mch) and HT, using the same settings for both since I am lazy.

Running mains full range with subs, particularly mains with bass extending well into the subs' range, is almost impossible to integrate properly IME/IMO. (I was going to write "is a disaster" and that is really how I feel. ;) ) My usual suggestion to folk feeling they have enough bass without subs, and wanting to run the mains full range, is to skip the subs.

One "gotcha'" is having phase/delay in the appropriate place. If the subs are closer to you than the mains, then you have to delay the subs, which is usually available via the sub controller. Putting the subs behind the mains, or anywhere further from the listener than the mains (like in the back of a large room), means you have to delay the signal to the main speakers so the sound from subs and mains arrives in phase, and many two-channel systems in particular are not provisioned for that. HT systems using AVR/AVP's can usually delay any and all channels, but adding subs to a two-channel system is a lot harder if the desire is to not add any components to the main stereo feed, since most two-channel components do not have continuous phase control for the channels (no need!) When I ran my subs with my Maggies in a two-channel system I had to be much more careful about placement and phase/time alignment. Putting the subs beside (not behind) the speakers was often the only solution even though I incorporated continuous phase control (using an all-pass filter stage) in my DIY servo control system.

My current four subs are not behind the mains but rather two asymmetric pairs positioned to optimize the LF response and reduce a vexing room mode. My room is not large and dimensions are close enough that room modes (nulls) are a big problem without placing multiple subs to counter the modes.

FWIWFM - Don
 
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steve williams said:
Im quite familiar with the settings. Youre preaching to the choir here. In fact the two speaker manufacturers also gave up. I often wonder how other situate their JL Audio subs well behind their main speakers and fiddle with the settings and proclaim they are in phase. But to each their own. Once I sold them and forgot about them I truly enjoyed my system more. I had them for years in every configuration but they just never sounded correct even though others tried to convince me that they were
Click to expand...

Yep - but there are also things like harmonics in the sub that can play well about where one would like them to play.
It is usually easier if the sib is designed to work with the mains, as some of this may have been thought out for us.
 
Lxgreen said:
I use active ATC 50s with two JL Audio fathom 110 v2 and the CR-1….
Click to expand...
Lxgreen said:
… I do plan to swap the JL Audio fathoms for a couple of new [Harbottle] subs. Much more expensive but my audio pro, Nyal Mellor, Acoustic Frontiers, has never steered me wrong.
Click to expand...
Interesting. Would love to know more about why you and Nyall Mellor like Harbottle. I have spoken for some time with Nathan Funk (Funk Audio works with Harbottle and even has a link on their website menus to Harbottle.).

My current thinking is dual Funk 18.2 subs (each dual-opposing 18” subs) so extraordinary air displacement, low volume below 38hz and exceedingly low distortion.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated
 
Danielaruso said:
I am pushing 87db speakers that have hybrid Lattice tweeter and go from 32 Hz to 40 kHz with 6 Ohms average 3.2 Ohms minimum.

I had JL F112v with CR1 Crossover. I simply could not get the subs dialed in. I called JL audio, you would need a PHD from NASA to get these subs to dial in. I gave up and am disconnected them. Running speakers full range and things sound more clear for sure.

I am contemplating buying the Rel Carbons.

Question: Some experts say (i) Dont use subs you are adding complexity and getting in the way of the spekears (ii) add subs for soundstage and it will open up speakers with less stress. Crossover at 50hz, 60hz, no do it at 30hz with low gain. No add more gain.

To boot, there are almost no experts that actually no how to work the crossover and the JL subs. Their implied marketshare for 2 channel must be half of rel given the lack of expertise.

Experts also say "no one uses JLaudio for 2 channel its just for movies, they are too slow. Need Rel."

I am under the impression that 9/10 times the best sounding rooms at shows do not use subs. If this is incorrect would want to know. Theoretically if dealers are trying to sell their gear they would have an incentive to pull out all the stops to make the room sound as good as possible.

I am dealing with 19x11x9 foot room.


So, to sub or not to sub, that is the question.
Click to expand...
Try setting up using RoomEQ Wizard . I integrated my Focal Stella with JL 113 & CR1. Another friend integrated his Magico S7 superbly with a pair of Gotham & CR1. The integrations were done with REW
 
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Kal Rubinson said:
Me, too. Their website seems to lack any technical information.
Click to expand...
Agree though some smaller companies’ websites can be surprisingly sparse. Speaking about both Harbottle and Funk Audio.

The very basic measurements of the original Funk 18.2 from 2015 or so seemed quite good. Low distortion, clear low end capability in an open field at 2m.

www.audioholics.com

Funk Audio 18.2 Dual 18" Sealed Subwoofer Preview

The Funk Audio 18.2 subwoofer is a dual 18" passive sub with two power amp configurations that allow it to hit an ear drum busting 134dB SPL. The driver is custom built in-house. Impressive!
www.audioholics.com www.audioholics.com

They have upgraded the amps and components since. Apparently now meaningfully better which (from my sense of Nathan Funk and one super-system member here whom I trust who actually owns his subs), I could believe.
 
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