To Sub Or Not To Sub, That Is The Question

Holmz said:

Yeah - but I am not sure how that is done with a full range speaker without filtering out some of the sub frequencies.
It seem like one would have too much energy somewhere.
- Either too much below 40Hz,
- or if the main speakers started at 60 Hz, then too much in the 60-8100Hz region.

Of course with a room, and modes, it may all just work out fortunately.
But luck is not a plan, so in a different room it could end up be a disaster,.
And working well with your speakers, may not be replicated with other speakers.

But at least the OP has a sense of what it should be like.

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Luck is not a plan indeed. You need a strategy, great care in setup and proper adjustability of the subs.

My speakers are capable of producing more deep bass than in their current position. Yet as many others have found, optimizing for bass reproduction is not necessarily the best for other things. In my particular room, at the current position there is the least room distortion, distortion in mid and high frequencies due to room excitement by the speakers at loud SPL. Also, at the current position the speakers reproduce the most *controlled*, articulate bass. So I optimized for position of the main speakers, then filled on with the subs. Result: Most extended, yet also cleanest bass that I could achieve. Would not have been possible without subs.

Excessive room nodes are a problem and my room has bad ones, unfortunately. I tamed the ones in my room with ASC TubeTraps.

As I said in #25, in my mid-sized room I had to use the e.l.f. (extreme low frequency) attenuation of my JL Audio subs in order to prevent room overload (if you have a large room you may get more lucky). Adjustability rules.

For the floorstanders I used the sharper roll-off slope of the subs of -24 dB per octave. You don't want to intrude with the subwoofers into mid- and upper bass (for two-way monitors a more shallow slope may be warranted). If I remember correctly, my old REL Storm III did not provide the option of such a sharp slope. Again, adjustability rules. -- Of course, you also want to choose the roll-off frequency of the subs wisely.

I used to be more of a bass head than I am now, and boost the bass with subs too much. I suspect others still do too. Yet now I want to hear extra low bass where warranted, not more bass from the subs all the time (again, support of two-way monitors may be a different story).

The volume of the subs is therefore adjusted judiciously. Cheap effects are a no-no. I listen to a lot of classical, and in general I do not want to "feel" the bass there, it robs the illusion. In the concert hall you don't feel bass either -- except from the large bass drum. The bass in my room is adjusted so that mostly I avoid "feeling" the bass in classical music (as much as that is possible in my mid-sized room even from just the main speakers; large rooms are easier in that respect). At the same time, deep bass electronica still provides the intended chest-pumping deep bass.

I am confident that I could put my strategy, also allowed by the adjustability of my subs, to good use in another room as well, if I had to.

@Al M. that 24 dB slope you;re using is now makeing a lot more sense… and obviating the need for a HPF on the mains.

I am just not sure the OP translates that into a plan..

Danielaruso said:

Experts also say "no one uses JLaudio for 2 channel its just for movies, they are too slow. Need Rel."

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Interesting. A friend who has both modern REL subs and JL Audios advised me to buy JL Audios for greater speed, thus saying just the opposite from his own experience. He also said you need the greater adjustability of the JL Audio. Correct! I would have had to give up without it.

I am very glad I followed his advice and bought two JL Audio F112v2.

I am under the impression that 9/10 times the best sounding rooms at shows do not use subs.

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Of course. Shows are handicapped in that you have to try to conjure good sound (many exhibitors fail) in very short time under conditions of compromised acoustics, usually compromised power from the wall, and other issues. You don't want to complicate things by adding subs.

Shows are a special kind of bad condition, not comparable with a home setting where you usually have better conditions and can take the time to optimize much more.

Al M. said:

Interesting. A friend who has both modern REL subs and JL Audios advised me to buy JL Audios for greater speed, thus saying just the opposite from his own experience. He also said you need the greater adjustability of the JL Audio. Correct! I would have had to give up without it.

I am very glad I followed his advice and bought two JL Audio F112v2.



Of course. Shows are handicapped in that you have to try to conjure good sound (many exhibitors fail) in very short time under conditions of compromised acoustics, usually compromised power from the wall, and other issues. You don't want to complicate things by adding subs.

Shows are a special kind of bad condition, not comparable with a home setting where you usually have better conditions and can take the time to optimize much more.

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I've owned dual JL Audio F112 V2 subwoofers and there's no way I would choose them over REL G1 mk2s or REL No. 32s. That being said, my preference doesn't invalidate someone else choosing JL Audio subwoofers. There are no absolutes in audio, only preferences.

ricjor1 said:

I've owned dual JL Audio F112 V2 subwoofers and there's no way I would choose them over REL G1 mk2s or REL No. 32s. That being said, my preference doesn't invalidate someone else choosing JL Audio subwoofers. There are no absolutes in audio, only preferences.

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Preferences are a variable, system set-up and system matching another. And yes, there are no absolutes in audio, I agree.

Wow, quite a mix of opinions; I started reading from the beginning but just didn't have the patience to read it all.. In my 66 years of being an audiofool*, I've had many subwoofers (SWs), some self-made but mostly purchased.. Here are some odds-n-ends I've observed over the decades.
1. Most audio systems do NOT have much energy in the bottom octave, much less in the half-octave below that; having a good level of energy below c. 30Hz increases my listening pleasure to both music and movies.
2. I THINK I listen at, on average, lower levels than most audiofools.
3. I have a pair of Rythmik 18"-driver, sealed SWs in my system, driven by the front-stereo channels and not the '.1s'.. I set the low-pass filter point at 25Hz, so they're really SUBwoofing; with 2nd-order filtering controlled by the knob and an additional, permanent 2nd-order filter at 80Hz, they have VERY little output in the midbass and above, so they do NOT make my music sound 'thick'.
4. I have Sound Lab electrostatics, the Majestic 745s and new to me this summer, in my c. 3300CF musicroom.. They have substantial energy in the bottom octave., but of course it's disappearing rapidly by around 35Hz.
5. Operating my Rythmik SWs at a relatively low level improves the musicality of virtually everything I listen to.

I love my SWs in my room and wouldn't be without them.

* That doesn't make me any smarter than anyone else, that means only that I'm old and have made more mistakes than the average audiofool.

jeffreybehr said:

Wow, quite a mix of opinions;

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True. You won't find here any absolute truth which you can base your decisions on. Just perhaps stimuli that can allow you to explore and experiment further and come to your own personal conclusions.

jeffreybehr said:

Wow, quite a mix of opinions; I started reading from the beginning but just didn't have the patience to read it all.. In my 66 years of being an audiofool*, I've had many subwoofers (SWs), some self-made but mostly purchased.. Here are some odds-n-ends I've observed over the decades.
1. Most audio systems do NOT have much energy in the bottom octave, much less in the half-octave below that; having a good level of energy below c. 30Hz increases my listening pleasure to both music and movies.
2. I THINK I listen at, on average, lower levels than most audiofools.
3. I have a pair of Rythmik 18"-driver, sealed SWs in my system, driven by the front-stereo channels and not the '.1s'.. I set the low-pass filter point at 25Hz, so they're really SUBwoofing; with 2nd-order filtering controlled by the knob and an additional, permanent 2nd-order filter at 80Hz, they have VERY little output in the midbass and above, so they do NOT make my music sound 'thick'.
4. I have Sound Lab electrostatics, the Majestic 745s and new to me this summer, in my c. 3300CF musicroom.. They have substantial energy in the bottom octave., but of course it's disappearing rapidly by around 35Hz.
5. Operating my Rythmik SWs at a relatively low level improves the musicality of virtually everything I listen to.

I love my SWs in my room and wouldn't be without them.

* That doesn't make me any smarter than anyone else, that means only that I'm old and have made more mistakes than the average audiofool.

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Could you enlighten me on the expression "not the .1s.." as I'm not familiar with this. Or perhaps it's a Home Theatre thing. Thanks

I wonder if your post above is compatible with your Profile where you say "Two Rythmik 18" subwoofers are used occasionally ..." I would imagine that full-range electrostatics would benefit from subs. so your experiences and settings details are helpful.

Hear Here said:

Could you enlighten me on the expression "not the .1s.." as I'm not familiar with this. Or perhaps it's a Home Theatre thing. Thanks

I wonder if your post above is compatible with your Profile where you say "Two Rythmik 18" subwoofers are used occasionally ..." I would imagine that full-range electrostatics would benefit from subs. so your experiences and settings details are helpful.

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1. The two sealed Rythmik model-F18 18"-driver SWs are the same by any shortened name.. They're always installed in my system but not always turned on.
2. The '.1' channel is indeed a home-theater thing, being the (mono) special-effects channel but almost always is merely the 'bass' channel.. Many (most?) of my classical SACDs don't use it.. The two SWs are driven by the line-level front-left/right stereo channels.
3. Sometimes I turn them off just to see how the system sounds, and often I simply forget to turn them back on.. The system sounds not only more powerful in the bottom octave but also sounds more spacious.

I have a dedicated 7.5 theater in a room that is 16 ft wide at the screen, 32 ft length, with 8 ft ceilings. Twelve ft back from the screen the room is 33 ft wide. I have always been in the no sub camp for two channel listening. I have always had multiple subs for LFE channel (currently JL Gotham v2, 2x Fathom 113v2, and 3x Linn Melodik). Room is treated with 20 bass traps. I sit 13 ft back from the center channel.

However, I have changed my mind with the installation and integration of six REL No 25s.

My front speakers are YG Anat Pro upgraded to Sonja 2.3 spec. I have always been satisfied that the YGs had adequate bass, the six pack has taken it to a new level of realism. They were fairly easy to integrate with the top to bottom set to 30hz, 25hz, and 20hz and below, respectively.

I’m sorry I lived without these, one of the best upgrades I’ve made.

I have a JL CR1, I am not using it.

The REL stack is behind and slightly to the outside of each main speaker. REL assured me this configuration would work, and they were correct. It is a limited space, there is only a few inches of movement possible in each direction. The YGs are optimally placed over a very long period of listening.

Hear Here said:

Placing subs close to main speakers with 12" bass drivers rather surprises me, because the MBL's surely don't need more bass?

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"Need" in this case is a philosophical question. The 101E Mk. II has only one 12" woofer on board. To me that is bare minimum wooferage for that type of loudspeaker at that level.

Ron Resnick said:

"Need" in this case is a philosophical question. The 101E Mk. II has only one 12" woofer on board. To me that is bare minimum wooferage.

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The MBL's have great very visceral bass, but it is not very deep, it can also have a tendency to be one note. Good sub-woofers give you more room information from the recording venue and a more nuanced bass. If they are well integrated.

Lagonda said:

The MBL's have great very visceral bass, but it is not very deep, it can also have a tendency to be one note. Good sub-woofers give you more room information from the recording venue and a more nuanced bass. If they are well integrated.

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I am starting to wonder how many of those advocating that subs are not necessary have experienced actual deep bass, rather than just strong mid-bass.

Al M. said:

I am starting to wonder how many of those advocating that subs are not necessary have experienced actual deep bass, rather than just strong mid-bass.

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After experiencing Leif’s massive horn loaded subs which go straight to 15hz from 75hz at 90db, Mike’s which go to 5hz, heihei’s Wilson Benesch pair of subs, Dallas Chris’s Rel in an excellent room, all of which sound great, not to mention a 6 stack Rel with magico and Marty’s big JLs, and others, subs are not necessary. (In Leif's below 75 is required, but if his main speaker went down to 40 instead of 75 the subs would not be necessary, it is a design choice). The exception I would make is with AG trios. if someone buys the trios it is because of the bass horns. But that doesn’t mean one has to like it more than the vyger Mayer pnoe system, which in terms of hz would have lesser bass than the above systems but could sound as good or better.

bonzo75 said:

After experiencing Leif’s massive horn loaded subs which go straight to 15hz from 75hz at 90db, Mike’s which go to 5hz, heihei’s Wilson Benesch pair of subs, Dallas Chris’s Rel in an excellent room, all of which sound great, not to mention a 6 stack Rel with magico and Marty’s big JBLs, and others, subs are not necessary. (In Leif's below 75 is required, but if his main speaker went down to 40 instead of 75 the subs would not be necessary, it is a design choice). The exception I would make is with AG trios. if someone buys the trios it is because of the bass horns. But that doesn’t mean one has to like it more than the vyger Mayer pnoe system, which in terms of hz would have lesser bass than the above systems but could sound as good or better.

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I get where you are coming from… especially for people who listen to mostly acoustic music. The best use of subs as an experience for me was with a pair of Wilson Benesch Torus supplementing Tune Anima horns.

I often get caught up in the idea of getting in subs again and try one more time (I did trial Wilson Benesch Torus with the Maggie 20.7s) but it is often gear lust (for me) rather than logic in my circumstances. It reconditions me to listen at different volumes that isn’t good for me (a hang over from my rave dance years and using bass as substance abuse)

I’ve 8 x 15 inch midwoofers (admittedly in OB) but for what I listen to and the limits of my room it’s probably a good outcome. I am tempted to have a go at W or U frame folded OB slot loaded to make a 2.5 way out of 4 x 15 woofers to add into the existing… I’ve still got a spare SET to drive them as well.

For classical lovers everyone seems to trot out Saint-Saens organ symphony No 3 as a good reason for deep bass but I’d listen to organ based classical maybe once in a decade… right up there with the 1812 for me where classical music can lean into hifi showcase.

I’d think for those who listen to a lot more electronic driven music there’d be a different focus and reasoning… though that said in a lot of EDM the interest comes in the melody and accents in the mid bass even if deep bass creates a big vibe foundation. But for me if the setup isn’t optimal and deep bass treads over the mid bass that’s a bummer too. But in a great sub setup where it’s all good and balanced that can always be impressive to experience and makes a stronger argument in a case by case assessment.

the sound of Tao said:

I’d think for those who listen to a lot more electronic driven music there’d be a different focus and reasoning… though that said in a lot of EDM the interest comes in the melody and accents in the mid bass even if deep bass creates a big vibe foundation. B

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Sure, a home theater set up can work great for that. You can enjoy movie explosions too.

bonzo75 said:

Sure, a home theater set up can work great for that. You can enjoy movie explosions too.

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Hmmm explosions… gotta love movies with explosions… much better than music with explosions.

bonzo75 said:

After experiencing Leif’s massive horn loaded subs which go straight to 15hz from 75hz at 90db, Mike’s which go to 5hz, heihei’s Wilson Benesch pair of subs, Dallas Chris’s Rel in an excellent room, all of which sound great, not to mention a 6 stack Rel with magico and Marty’s big JBLs, and others, subs are not necessary.

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"Necessary" is a philosophical question. Bass extension and power is a subjective parameter.

What is not necessary to you may be highly desirable to someone else.

David has JBLs. Marty has JL Audio Gothams.