To Sub Or Not To Sub, That Is The Question

[bonzo75]

"Necessary" is a philosophical question. Bass extension and power is a subjective parameter.

What is not necessary to you may be highly desirable to someone else.

David has JBLs. Marty has JL Audio Gothams.

I found Bionors without subs sounding much better, all the way through. I corrected my typo of Marty's JBL to JL.

My reply was in response to your video compatriot "wondering how many have experienced subs with strong real bass" - Rofl at real.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I found Bionors without subs sounding much better, all the way through.

I definitely would not. This is fine personal preference, and it simply suggests that low frequency response coherency as perceived by you is more important to you than low frequency extension and impact.

This is why you report hearing coherency problems in low frequencies in current generation Wilson loudspeakers, and I don't.

For me, low frequency extension and impact, even at a cost of some coherency, if necessary, are important attributes of realism.

 

[Al M.]

I found Bionors without subs sounding much better, all the way through. I corrected my typo of Marty's JBL to JL.

My reply was in response to your video compatriot "wondering how many have experienced subs with strong real bass" - Rofl at real.

ROFL indeed. If you quote, you might as well quote correctly.

 

[bonzo75]

I definitely would not.

Would not without hearing it. Sure, I don't disagree

 

[bonzo75]

ROFL indeed. If you quote, you might as well quote correctly.

Painful to read it twice, so used memory.

 

[Al M.]

Painful to read it twice, so used memory.

Sure. I'll let others judge you memory abilities. They can read for themselves.

 

[bonzo75]

Sure. I'll let others judge you memory abilities. They can read for themselves.

Yes it has the same meaning

 

[Al M.]

Yes it has the same meaning

I am sure people will disagree if they read the original statement vs your "quote".

 

[bonzo75]

This is why you report hearing coherency problems in low frequencies in current generation Wilson loudspeakers, and I don't.

For me, low frequency extension and impact, even at a cost of some coherency, if necessary, are important attributes of realism.

I understand theory wipes out memories in your case. You genuinely loved the Pnoe, well after listening to many systems with subs. Pity you did not get to experience the yamamura, easily the best speaker I heard.

 

[Lagonda]

Sure. I'll let others judge you memory abilities. They can read for themselves.

Ked has photographic memory, to go with his bass frequency limited preferences !

 

[Ron Resnick]

You genuinely loved the Pnoe, well after listening to many systems with subs.

Yes, but my experience with top rooms + systems has increased substantially since then. I wonder how I would evaluate it today.

Pity you did not get to experience the yamamura,

I agree! Actually, we should've gone there together like we did a lot of other visits -- that would've had the most probative value.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, but my experience with top rooms + systems has increased substantially since then. I wonder how I would evaluate it today.

I haven't seen that. That was your peak. The trio with the analogue set up would have been good if you had similar levels of recordings for audition

 

[thansen]

Hello all, my name is Taylor and I’m one of the two home tech support employees at JL Audio. I see a lot of differing opinions and experiences with integrating subs into a two-channel system. Everybody has different tastes, and to me, that's part of what makes high-end audio interesting. There's no single answer or magic settings that will get you where you want to be. With that said, I wanted to offer my assistance to anyone that should want it. I'm happy to discuss our approach to integrating subs, or answer any other questions you may have. You can reach out to me at technical@jlaudio.com or 954-443-1100 (follow the voice prompts for home technical support). Note that my interaction within this thread will be limited, but I’m happy to speak with anyone one-on-one via email or phone. Best regards!

 

[steve williams]

welcome to WBF Taylor

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I definitely would not. This is fine personal preference, and it simply suggests that low frequency response coherency as perceived by you is more important to you than low frequency extension and impact.

This is why you report hearing coherency problems in low frequencies in current generation Wilson loudspeakers, and I don't.

For me, low frequency extension and impact, even at a cost of some coherency, if necessary, are important attributes of realism.

i disagree. and agree with Ked.

when i was doing my bass tower adjustments (back in 2015) my exact process as i was doing fine adjustments which i did at least 100 times, was to turn the bass towers on and off and determine whether the music was more true with or without. if i could hear the bass towers as distinctive as something 'extra' and 'bass in and of itself' and 'not of a piece' then it was wrong. it took a long time but since then have not touched them. you cannot hear my bass towers as a source of sound, just in concert with the main towers.

bass ought to be sneaky, just there when it should be, and not just hanging around. and not used to cover improper highs. imaging ought to be full range and the proper bass connected to/located with every thread of sound and instrument. and not at all coming from the drivers. for true suspension of disbelief you talk about. unconnected bass removes realism. might be fun, but that is a different thing altogether.

 

[LL21]

On systems, none is perfect, and so it ultimately personal priorities about ranking what is more important. Personally, I have always preferred subs even if not extremely well set up vs not having subs at all. That said, I obviously prefer subs being well setup, and also obviously respect that this is not much of a priority for others. For me, I would not and have not gone without...and on a few occasions where perhaps someone unknowingly turned it off...I do end up discovering it not because it is glaringly obvious...but because at some point of being in the room, I find that the foundational element is just not as 'there' for me...which is just something that drives me crazy (most audiophiles have something that drives them crazy)...and then I check everything and find the sub was accidentally turned off.

 

[LL21]

I have a dedicated 7.5 theater in a room that is 16 ft wide at the screen, 32 ft length, with 8 ft ceilings. Twelve ft back from the screen the room is 33 ft wide. I have always been in the no sub camp for two channel listening. I have always had multiple subs for LFE channel (currently JL Gotham v2, 2x Fathom 113v2, and 3x Linn Melodik). Room is treated with 20 bass traps. I sit 13 ft back from the center channel.

However, I have changed my mind with the installation and integration of six REL No 25s.

My front speakers are YG Anat Pro upgraded to Sonja 2.3 spec. I have always been satisfied that the YGs had adequate bass, the six pack has taken it to a new level of realism. They were fairly easy to integrate with the top to bottom set to 30hz, 25hz, and 20hz and below, respectively.

I’m sorry I lived without these, one of the best upgrades I’ve made.

I have a JL CR1, I am not using it.

Wow that is fantastic. Congrats. Definitely the stacked RELs have inspired a lot of legend and for those who own them a lot of exceptional comments. I know Arnie (Rockport Arrakis and 6-pack REL) is supremely happy, and his are set at something like 23 or 28hz...so even in his sensational system, he has integrated them to great satisfaction. Looking forward to figuring out our own ideal solution here.

Any specific comments about HOW the REL 6-pack has taken it to "a new level of realism"?

 

[Hear Here]

Personally, I have always preferred subs even if not extremely well set up vs not having subs at all.

Well, having just bought my first pair of subs, I'm experiencing precisely the opposite!

I admit to not yet having them ideally set up, but so far, I prefer not to have the subs working at all. Perhaps I'll never use them, but I'm slowly trying options in the hopes that I may get them to meld in with the main speakers in as subtle a way as not to ever cause the sound to be bloated or booming. At present, with all the sub settings I've tried, this happens on some music and is not acceptable.

My main speakers already have twin 12" drivers, so perhaps adding subs is much more difficult to get right than if I had twin 6" ones.

 

[LL21]

Well, having just bought my first pair of subs, I'm experiencing precisely the opposite!

I admit to not yet having them ideally set up, but so far, I prefer not to have the subs working at all. Perhaps I'll never use them, but I'm slowly trying options in the hopes that I may get them to meld in with the main speakers in as subtle a way as not to ever cause the sound to be bloated or booming. At present, with all the sub settings I've tried, this happens on some music and is not acceptable.

My main speakers already have twin 12" drivers, so perhaps adding subs is much more difficult to get right than if I had twin 6" ones.

Your sub specs indicate an ability to carry on down to 18hz...not sure at what level of db in a given room. That said, are you crossing over low (sub 40hz) and low volume or trying to bring them in higher?

 

[Danielaruso]

This community is really wonderful. Thanks for all the terrific contributions - learned a lot.

So here is where I am.

I followed Taylor’s instructions and I can confirm the subs are adding some “meat” to the party. My speakers are less “lean” and have some thickness and fullness and I am not hearing huge degradation in clarity.

I really want an expert to come and help.

I could do another REW report and see what it says. I have then phased in and kicking in at 60hz for YG Carmel 3 (87db and 3.2 to 6ohm) down to 30hz.

JL recommends to use the CR1 cross over and not run the speakers full range.

Should I (a) see if I can use my CR1 and dial it in with an expert / REW data OR
(B) switch to REL.

Thanks !