Clocks

Superdad · Jul 11, 2024

tony22 said:
@Superdad, how does this stack up against their top of the line REF10 SE120?

The REF10 Nano at $1,799 stacks up very well indeed!
The only differences between it and the big 8 output REF10 ($3,599) and REF10 SE120 ($5,499) is the Nano's use of a hybrid internal power supply (with 15VDC input jack to bypass that with a fine external PS) , just 4 outputs--still with the same advanced transformer & chip based output buffer/isolation circuits on each output--and an OCXO with a few dBc/Hz difference in phase-noise.

Here are pics (green is the Nano):

Guaranteed phase-noise performance at the outputs (not just of the raw OCXO as with some brands) is:

REF10 Nano: -112dBc/Hz at 1Hz, -142dBc/Hz at 10Hz. (Though the unit we measured came in at -114 @1Hz and -144 @10Hz)

REF10: -116dBc/Hz at 1Hz, -145dBc/Hz at 10Hz.

REF10 SE120: -120dBc/Hz at 1Hz, -148dBc/Hz at 10Hz.

All of the above are outstanding numbers, and our research and ears tell us that performance at 10Hz offset actually matters more than the challenging 1Hz figure.
And while phase-noise performance is certainly the most important metric, the quality of the output waveform--be it sine or square--is also quite critical. The performance of a sine wave clock with a well spec'd OCXO can easily be ruined by the presence of power supply harmonics or other spurie on the waveform, often right in the middle of the rise around the point that the attached equipment is triggering off of!

While a square wave clock is ultimately more desirable (chips trigger more consistently from a nice steep square), all the lower-priced clocks (from Asia, I won't name names) offering a square wave output option use miserable/primative sine>square converter circuits resulting in horrific waveforms. Sine is easier so you see many makes stick to that.

We wrote an introductory paper 3 year ago; here is a link to it:
Considerations regarding 10MHz external reference clocks: Sine/Square wave; Impedance; Cabling; Filters.

(Ongoing discussion of that paper and clocks is here.)

Superdad · Jul 11, 2024

Kingrex said:
Thanks Superdad.
Does your switch have a clock input?
Do you have a cable or can you make a cable that works wirh the JCat USB XE card.
Rex

Hi Rex:

Yes, the EtherREGEN has always had a BNC for external 10MHz reference clock input.

As for connection to a JCAT USB card: While it is easy to find cables with BNC (clock end) and SMA at other end for connector on the JCAT card, the JCAT USB XE is looking for a 20MHz external clock. So use of external 10MHz with that card is not possible.

Kingrex · Jul 11, 2024

Superdad said:
Hi Rex:

Yes, the EtherREGEN has always had a BNC for external 10MHz reference clock input.

As for connection to a JCAT USB card: While it is easy to find cables with BNC (clock end) and SMA at other end for connector on the JCAT card, the JCAT USB XE is looking for a 20MHz external clock. So use of external 10MHz with that card is not possible.

Owe wow. Glad you chimed in. I would have had all sorts of issues.

Kingrex · Jul 11, 2024

@Superdad
How about the Mutec clock and the Mutec USB interface. Have you tried that. USB from my server to the interface. The world clock attached the USB interface. AES from the interface to my DAC?

Thought on that?

Superdad · Jul 11, 2024

Kingrex said:
@Superdad
How about the Mutec clock and the Mutec USB interface. Have you tried that. USB from my server to the interface. The world clock attached the USB interface. AES from the interface to my DAC?

You are referring to the extraordinary multi-functional Mutec MC3+ USB. We have sold several of them—to pair with a Mutec REF clock, and DACs that accept word-clock (audio sample-rate related frequencies) input, and/or AES/SPDIF input. A 10MHz reference clock into the MC3+ USB benefits both its generation of the word-clock and its USB>S/PDIF DDC capabilities.

I don’t think your DAC has word-clock input, but if you use its AES input for audio data then yes, the MC3+USB would be quite a fine DDC to use. It’s funny, for some reason (maybe Mutec’s lower profile in the home audiophile realm—they are dominant in the studio world) the MC3+USB is often overlooked as aa choice in the crowded DDC market. But it is a highly flexible world-class and well-proven unit. A LOT of capability and performance in that small $1,299 box!

Robh3606 · Jul 11, 2024

While your at it why not go Rubidium or Cesium could do Hydrogen maser!

Rob

Superdad · Jul 11, 2024

Robh3606 said:
While your at it why not go Rubidium or Cesium could do Hydrogen maser!

Rob

Because objectively rubidium a cesium clocks have much poorer phase-noise performance. They are great for long-term frequency stability (no drift), but for audio that matters not a bit.
Look for phase-noise specifications with any rubidium clock—I doubt you will find them.

DasguteOhr · Jul 12, 2024

Superdad said:
You are referring to the extraordinary multi-functional Mutec MC3+ USB. We have sold several of them—to pair with a Mutec REF clock, and DACs that accept word-clock (audio sample-rate related frequencies) input, and/or AES/SPDIF input. A 10MHz reference clock into the MC3+ USB benefits both its generation of the word-clock and its USB>S/PDIF DDC capabilities.

I don’t think your DAC has word-clock input, but if you use its AES input for audio data then yes, the MC3+USB would be quite a fine DDC to use. It’s funny, for some reason (maybe Mutec’s lower profile in the home audiophile realm—they are dominant in the studio world) the MC3+USB is often overlooked as aa choice in the crowded DDC market. But it is a highly flexible world-class and well-proven unit. A LOT of capability and performance in that small $1,299 box!

Excellent device, I have been using it for 5 years. Improves audio performance, whether computer or CD transport is connected, converts to any digital signal you want. The only disadvantage is that it does not work bidirectionally, you cannot record LPs digitally on the computer as a file. Then you have to use the mutec mc1.2 interface. Makes excellent recordings e.g. turntable - dat recorder (digital output - mutec mc 1.2 - hard drive PC.

Solartiger · Jul 12, 2024

I have been looking at the Mutec clocks too. I have an Aurender N30SA connected to a Gryphon Ethos CD/DAC via AES/EBU. The Ethos has no external clock input. As the AES connection uses S/PDIF, it is the Aurender providing the clock signal to the Ethos. Aurender sells a clock, the MC10, for nearly 10x the price of the Ref10 nano. The Aurender MC10 uses a Rubidium module and has a phase noise of -130 dB/Hz at 10 Hz. Therefore any Mutec clock should be at least on par with the MC10, or is this assumption wrong?

Has anybody tried this with the N20 or N30SA Aurender over AES/EBU and can share his experience?

Bruce B · Jul 12, 2024

Here's my 2cents and that is all I will say.

I have NEVER inserted a Clock in a single converter system and made it sound "better".

Studios had several converters connected to a DAW and in the early years, the converters would not want to sync to a single source. That was when Clocks became all the rage. I've used multiple converters and sync'd them to a clock and it works perfectly.
But I have never been able to make a single converter system sound better unless the converter's clock was was done poorly.
I've used clocks from Grimm, Antelope, dCS and Avid

Superdad · Jul 12, 2024

Solartiger said:
Aurender sells a clock, the MC10, for nearly 10x the price of the Ref10 nano. The Aurender MC10 uses a Rubidium module and has a phase noise of -130 dB/Hz at 10 Hz. Therefore any Mutec clock should be at least on par with the MC10, or is this assumption wrong?

If the phase-noise performance of the Aurender is only -130dBc/Hz @ 10Hz offset, then there are a LOT of clocks out there for far less which will equal or exceed it. And the Mutecs at -145dBc/Hz will run rings around that expensive rubidium clock.

Superdad · Jul 12, 2024

Bruce B said:
I have NEVER inserted a Clock in a single converter system and made it sound "better".

With the UTMOST respect to you and your decades of recording experience Bruce, it is not hard to find thousands of audiophiles who will differ with your assessment.

tony22 · Jul 12, 2024

But Bruce kind of raises a question that’s been on my mind, ‘dad. Let’s say you have two devices, say a streamer and a DAC, both of which have well implemented clock circuits with oven controlled clocks. Wouldn’t an external clock gain lower phase noise at the expense of the pitfalls of now being further away from the devices that are using their (otherwise internal) clock?

Kingrex · Jul 12, 2024

I don't know how anyone would answer this. A Mutec clock and USB interface ve

Bruce B said:
Here's my 2cents and that is all I will say.

I have NEVER inserted a Clock in a single converter system and made it sound "better".

Studios had several converters connected to a DAW and in the early years, the converters would not want to sync to a single source. That was when Clocks became all the rage. I've used multiple converters and sync'd them to a clock and it works perfectly.
But I have never been able to make a single converter system sound better unless the converter's clock was was done poorly.
I've used clocks from Grimm, Antelope, dCS and Avid

What do you mean a poorly done converter clock?

I was originally looking to upgrade the JCat USB card in my server. I was told the new XE card with an external Clock was a better performing setup. That got me thinking.

I also saw where Mike L got a inexpensive TEAC player, and an external clock was a large upgrade. So, maybe your saying a $2700 CD player may have a poorly executed clock.

I, thinking of versatility thought a different clock for the JCat card, but superdad said its a 20mh JCat card and wont work. So, I thought a Mutec clock and USB converter. Question is, how good is the USB card and have and how to skin the cat.

R S · Jul 12, 2024

I have used a clock from After Dark (link below) with Mutec MC3+ USB DDC for a while. Made a very positive difference for me. I have not checked lately but they had a range of specifications and outputs available. I have no affiliation and also didn’t audition other clocks to compare. Usual caveats apply.

https://www.adark.co/en-au/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo

Kingrex · Jul 13, 2024

I hear Al, Superdad and Tony. Just how is the system implemented. I hear USB is not that great. That is why Taiko, Wadax and others are using different formats.

I have tried USB reclockers. Those did nothing.

I have been told AES via a CD is better with my DAC. I sometimes wonder if its the signal format. Is a better USB card with a clock that much better than my already good USB card. Maybe Al has a point here.
Is converting USB to AES and reclocking that to the DAC a larger impact. This might be where Superdad is getting gains.

speakerlust · Jul 13, 2024

FYI, I believe the MC3+ USB does convert DSD to PCM. That may not be an issue for some, but may be an impediment for others.

Bruce B · Jul 15, 2024

Kingrex said:
What do you mean a poorly done converter clock?

Well the manufacturer had to cut cost somewhere. Or, the manufacturer really didn't know how to implement a clock correctly.... then I would attest to using an external clock would be beneficial. But in MY experience, I have never had an external clock make a single source component "sound better". Maybe my single source components had great clocks to begin with?

tony22 · Jul 15, 2024

@Bruce B, what about in the case of multiple devices, like a switch and a streamer? If both have decently executed OCXOs, would sync'ing to an (equally good if not better) external clock be more advantageous?

Tuckers · Jul 15, 2024

Superdad said:
Mutec of Germany produces some of the finest clocks available. They are used in studios and in fine music systems. Truly great square-waves, multiple highly isolated outputs, and guaranteed phase-noise performance near the limits of what is possible.
Last year they were able to lower pricing across the board and they introduced the outstanding REF10 Nano (4 outputs instead of 8, lower cost built-in power supply with inlet to bypass with a fine 15V linear) at just $1,799.

I was going to come here to say this.

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