Tell you what, Tim, I'd take you on as my lawyer any day, to defend me against impossible odds. When you've got your jaws locked onto a bone, absolutely nothing is going to make you let it go! 
Frank
Frank
2.4KW amp, anyone?
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Tell you what, Tim, I'd take you on as my lawyer any day, to defend me against impossible odds. When you've got your jaws locked onto a bone, absolutely nothing is going to make you let it go!
Frank
I'm flattered, Frank, but you give me too much credit. You should be able to get loose rather easily, actually, as I've been unable to find any meat, or bone, in any of your fantasies to lock onto. Just cut the gibberish and I'll be done.
Tim
You're building from scratch? DO IT FRANK! Prove us wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!
btw 200 solid watts is more than enough
btw 200 solid watts is more than enough
Frank,
I don't even want to speculate as to the size, weight, and power (electricity consumption) for a 2400 watt amp. Are you suggesting 2400 watts at 8, 4, 2, or 1 ohm? My big Aragon Palladium 1K monoblock amps are 124 watts Class A, or 400 watts Class A/B @ 8 ohms, 600 watt Class A/B @ 4 ohms, and 1000 watts @ 2 ohms. The amp does not not double down like a lot of the bigger Krell or Levinson amps, but in most instances it is more than sufficient for most speakers. As Jack has suggested 200 watts solid state is more than enough.
Even my 25 watt Class A First Watt M2 Power amp is more than sufficient to drive my 104 or 105 dB/1w/1m OMA New Yorker Prototype speakers at least for my 19'4" W X 14' 7" L X 9' H room to play as loud as I could stand. I know that Tom Danley may disagree on that, but...
Rich
I don't even want to speculate as to the size, weight, and power (electricity consumption) for a 2400 watt amp. Are you suggesting 2400 watts at 8, 4, 2, or 1 ohm? My big Aragon Palladium 1K monoblock amps are 124 watts Class A, or 400 watts Class A/B @ 8 ohms, 600 watt Class A/B @ 4 ohms, and 1000 watts @ 2 ohms. The amp does not not double down like a lot of the bigger Krell or Levinson amps, but in most instances it is more than sufficient for most speakers. As Jack has suggested 200 watts solid state is more than enough.
Even my 25 watt Class A First Watt M2 Power amp is more than sufficient to drive my 104 or 105 dB/1w/1m OMA New Yorker Prototype speakers at least for my 19'4" W X 14' 7" L X 9' H room to play as loud as I could stand. I know that Tom Danley may disagree on that, but...
Rich
I'll tell you what, Frank...you build the 2400 watt super amp and send it to...who's a neutral party here? Mep?...he's on the line between subjective and objective...Amir? You choose. They will A/B it, blind if you like, against, in Mep's case the vintage, is it 200 watts, Mark? Phase Linear, or for Amir, a 500 watt ML. If they conclude that your amp even holds its own, I'll set up a webcam and eat my hat, and crow, on the board.
Tim
Tim
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First of all, I doubt this amp will ever be built. Second, I would never lash up something he designed and built to my stereo. So count me out of this fairy tale.
I kicked off this thread in search of motivation, and as Roger suggested, I now have it in spades ....
Frank
I kicked off this thread in search of motivation, and as Roger suggested, I now have it in spades ....
Frank
And I'm glad to be your inspiration.
Tim
I agree with everything you and Jack say, in normal situations it is overkill, but there are certain environments where it is almost essential, like driving the MBL 101Es I mentioned earlier. The power ratings you mentioned are what I envisage: the real problem with a lot of higher powered amps is that the power supplies haven't been sorted out as well as they should have, so then you need to jump to an even higher level of power to get them to drive the speakers cleanly. Plus, having such power is obviously a talking point, it makes sure people will check it out ...
An interesting point is what you said, "as loud as you can stand", or by others, "ear splitting", used to imply that a system has the accelerator pedal mashed to the floor. Is it really that loud, or are problems becoming too audible to be able to take for more than a short period of time? My experience is otherwise, and I have noted that recognised pro audio people say similar, when the sound produced is clean, undistorted, one can listen at very high dB levels for extended periods without discomfort and, provided you don't overdo it, without ear damage.
As regards testing the capabilities of my beast, I would suggest hunting down a set of 101Es in Australia, at a dealer, say, getting in a few third party people and then winding up the wick. That would be a decent way of resolving its capabilities, I would think ...
Frank
As some extra thoughts, being able to go loud with no change in sound quality is the key in this whole business. One thing Tim finds so hard to fathom with regard to the HT setup is that I can run it at level 40 out of 40, maximum, but then wind it back to 20 and the sound stays the same, subjectively it doesn't really appear to have got that much softer but obviously the power drive is dramatically lower. This is the sort of behaviour a good system should be capable of, to get realistic reproduction.
Again, it's all about the quality of the watts, not the quantity. The "joke" is that I started with 200W over 20 years ago, with the Perreaux, then moved to 60W, and now am happy with 20W. This appears to be a similar journey to that of Steve and Jack, but done in a different way ...
Frank
Again, it's all about the quality of the watts, not the quantity. The "joke" is that I started with 200W over 20 years ago, with the Perreaux, then moved to 60W, and now am happy with 20W. This appears to be a similar journey to that of Steve and Jack, but done in a different way ...
Frank
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I don't think it's possible to clip a well designed powerful amp with well matched speakers, I have never clipped my amps. Of course I don't turn the volume up to obscene levels either. The one thing that I enjoy about lots of power is the effortless ability to reproduce the dynamics in the recording. I love the rush,when the music just soars. Now maybe 20 watts will get the job done,but you won't convince me to change from 1200 watts.
It is impossible the sound can "stay the same" from when you have the volume control maxed out and turn it back to half way. This simply means that your volume control is stuck at full-on or you have a severe hearing problem. I see no other explanation other than a vivid imagination.
That underlined is the key here. I'm sure the 101Es will humble most amps out there with ease, but attach some 106dB sensitivity speakers to just about anything and you should be able to deafen people! My first serious DIY used Goodman's Axioms, with that sensitivity, and a silly, single transistor DIY effort from a popular electronics mag. And it did nice sound too ...
Yes, "effortless ability to reproduce the dynamics" is what it's all about. As a side note, when I first heard the 101Es, driven of course by the MBL monsters, it sounded good, but as the track proceeded I could hear the SQ start to drop: they also had the very same problems that I've been battling with ...
Frank
I can feel your pain from here, Jack ...
A simple experiment. Plonk a real live, talented jazz trio in your listening room and tell them to let it rip! Would you feel acoustically overloaded??
Frank
In a word.....Yes. It happens in Jazz clubs all the time my friend. Heck it even happens in the mall food court at lunch time and that's just people going about their business.
Now this is interesting ...
So does that mean you find the dynamics of live music somewhat over powering? Remember, I am not talking about any PA rubbish being involved in the situation: live means acoustic live ...
Frank
I'm not saying I don't enjoy head banging on occasion Frank, especially in the company of friends and copious amounts of Red Horse Beer. It's not about that. There's a reason for acoustics Frank, it's intelligibility. An enclosed room will ring at sufficient amplitude. The reverberation will eventually turn everything into one load roar. Live or amplified, it'll happen. Just because something is live it doesn't mean it automatically sounds good.
I don't find that one hard to fathom at all, Frank. I don't think you've scratched the surface of quality watts until you've experienced really well-designed actives with loads of headroom and dedicated amps for each driver in the system. In such a system, it's very easy to find yourself easing the volume up through a listening session and getting it way up there without realizing it, because there is so little distortion to cue you to the loudness. And of course the reverse is true as well, as the volume comes down, dynamics stay strong (though bass eventually thins, you can't really change your ears' response, or I can't, you, no doubt, have), tonality is not largely affected. I get that one completely, Frank. I just don't think you really do with a low-powered HTIB. What I think you probably are getting is a system that is designed to be limited, so you can crank it all the way up without damaging it and without getting too deep into clipping.
Tim
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