70's and early 80's Japanese Component: How good were they?

[FrantzM]

Turntale

I currently have an SP-10 MKII in a plinth .. I am thinking about making with a friend of mine a serious Plinth for now I close next to nothing about what a plinth should and shouldn't do...
I had back in 1989 the opportunity to get an L-07, I choose instead a Pink Triangle the dumbest move I have made in my Hifi life. I may be able to locate a P-3 i. Are you suing is with the original arm?

PM coming in

 

[XV-1]

Turntale

I currently have an SP-10 MKII in a plinth .. I am thinking about making with a friend of mine a serious Plinth for now I close next to nothing about what a plinth should and shouldn't do...
I had back in 1989 the opportunity to get an L-07, I choose instead a Pink Triangle the dumbest move I have made in my Hifi life. I may be able to locate a P-3 i. Are you suing is with the original arm?

PM coming in

Hi Franz

yes, many aftermarket plinths are available for the Sp10. You will have fun making yours.
There is one available in Sydney now for a reasonable price. I just do not have space available for another table.

Yes I am using the original tonearm. It has 2 straight arm wands and 1 S arm wand. I am using Valhalla tonearm cable with it.

 

[TBone]

Do you really want to tell me that you have heard an Oracle table with deep, tight bass that extended into the bottom octave? Maybe it was the Oracle table that gave the ET-2 a reputation for not having deep bass. I love the looks of the Oracle, i was just never a fan of their sound. I would take an early SOTA Star Sapphire over the Oracle any day.

I've never heard anyone mention that the Oracle gave the ET2 any such reputation.

Actually, an ET2 was included in the needle drops session, slaved to a VPI 19m3. It didn't produce earth shattering bass, but it certainly produced an articulate type low end. My problem with the ET2 in past demo's, isn't so much the low-end, more-so it's tendency to have an upfront type sound that became more & more aggressive with curtailed dimensional definition during difficult passages. I'm not saying that's an absolute character of the ET, I've not heard it enough to make such a determination, rather that every time I've heard the ET2, it was consistent.

The Oracle, well lets see, I've heard many Oracles over the years, AC driven, DC driven, most recently two of the latest "damped" versions ... one with a Graham Phantom, the other an Oracle arm (SME) ... both sounded fine to me. Nobody in those rooms commented on a lack of deep bass, but what do they know right?

The Oracle which was included in the above needle-drop was a MK5/Graham 2.2.

So yeah, I can safely state that I've heard enough Oracles to get some understanding of their characteristics, which depending on version & aux equipment, will sound different. Perhaps the one "character" that I've found to be relatively consistent with Oracles has been their rather dry & lean tonal balance, but then again, my particular table veers into the rich & impactfull side of the equation ... so ...

How many Oracles have you heard in order to base your "tight bass that extended into the bottom octave" opinion?

tb1

 

[microstrip]

(...) I had back in 1989 the opportunity to get an L-07, I choose instead a Pink Triangle the dumbest move I have made in my Hifi life. (...)

Frantz,

I agree with you. I am have been trying to sell an old Pink Triangle PT Too since long, but no one wanted it, even at very low price. But it was very easy to sell all my Linn Sondedk's for a realistic value ...

 

[TBone]

I bought a Pioneer Exclusive P3 several years ago. This is a 1979/80 table. My best HiFi buy, especially considering the price.

Turntable, I don't think I've ever heard that particular Pioneer, certainly quite the "looker".

The most recent direct drive I've heard was a Brinkmann (albeit a limited demo). I was impressed, it had a dark & dynamic type presentation. I was especially impressed with it's noise floor characteristics, an area which I consider critical.

I've always been a fan of the 12, but not without reservation. The latest greatest fully decked out Radikal/Keel LP12 is certainly the best 12 I've ever heard by a country mile. The turn-key Majik version is also quite nice, but not nearly as refined.

tb1

 

[TBone]

But it was very easy to sell all my Linn Sondedk's for a realistic value ...

In my area, the LP12 has always been popular, especially considering they retain their value.

tb1

 

[mep]

I've never heard anyone mention that the Oracle gave the ET2 any such reputation.

Actually, an ET2 was included in the needle drops session, slaved to a VPI 19m3. It didn't produce earth shattering bass, but it certainly produced an articulate type low end. My problem with the ET2 in past demo's, isn't so much the low-end, more-so it's tendency to have an upfront type sound that became more & more aggressive with curtailed dimensional definition during difficult passages. I'm not saying that's an absolute character of the ET, I've not heard it enough to make such a determination, rather that every time I've heard the ET2, it was consistent.

The Oracle, well lets see, I've heard many Oracles over the years, AC driven, DC driven, most recently two of the latest "damped" versions ... one with a Graham Phantom, the other an Oracle arm (SME) ... both sounded fine to me. Nobody in those rooms commented on a lack of deep bass, but what do they know right?

The Oracle which was included in the above needle-drop was a MK5/Graham 2.2.

So yeah, I can safely state that I've heard enough Oracles to get some understanding of their characteristics, which depending on version & aux equipment, will sound different. Perhaps the one "character" that I've found to be relatively consistent with Oracles has been their rather dry & lean tonal balance, but then again, my particular table veers into the rich & impactfull side of the equation ... so ...

How many Oracles have you heard in order to base your "tight bass that extended into the bottom octave" opinion?

tb1

Lest anyone be confused, I said lack of tight bass that extends into the bottom octave. My best friend in Maine owns an Oracle with an SME V arm which never had a reputation for being bass shy that I have spent many hours listening to. And when you characterize the sound of Oracle tables as you did above by saying they have a dry and lean tonal balance, I think we are saying the same thing here.

With regards to the ET-2, there are so many variables on how to set this arm up correctly and whether or not you are using one pump, two pumps, and a surge tank will greatly influence the sound you hear. I have never heard a properly set up ET-2 sound "aggressive." If you don't use a surge tank, the bass will not be what it can be-and it can be really, really, good.

 

[TBone]

And when you characterize the sound of Oracle tables as you did above by saying they have a dry and lean tonal balance, I think we are saying the same thing here.

Perhaps ... although perhaps not ... since I consider better Linn digital dry & lean in much the same regard, but that doesn't mean they lack an impactfull bottom octave (just the opposite).

tb1

 

[choir]

I am new to this forum and this will be my first post.

In response to Frantz's original question, is Japanese SS gear unfairly looked down upon / represented, my answer is probably. There, no doubt, has been a lot of entry level gear that does nothing to elevate the status of Japanese gear. My experience (limited as it is) has been pretty positive. I am the original owner of a lot of late '70s / early 80's Yamaha equipment - NS 1000M speakers, PX-2 turntable (Shure V15 Type IVMR, Yamaha MC-3/5/11/21 cartridges), K2000 tapedeck, A-960III integrated amplifier, DSP-A700, LDP-1700, Alpine AL-65 tapedeck. I was also the second owner of a pair of JBL 4345 Studio monitors. These are the items that I paid for.
I currently have the following items in systems or needing modification that I have scavenged / received from people looking to discard and not paid for: B&W DM 570, Yamaha A-500 amplifier, AR XA turntable, Technics SP-10 / SL23, Dual CS-515, Garrard 40.

My NS 1000s, PX-2, K2000, A-960, DSP-A700. LDP-1700, AL-65 sound great. Are they the absolute best items? No, but then again they didn't cost me hundreds of thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars. The JBLs (lots of fun) cost me $1500. 20 years later I sold them for $3600 and they needed to be refoamed and had some small scratches (more critically - got married and the wife said they couldn't enter the house - these are big - 18" woofer, 8"midranges, bi-radial horn tweeter - 250 lbs a piece). All the components are more than acceptable and surprise people that have heard them. Music seems to be accurately reproduced. The NS1000s are very transparent - if a component or source material is lacking, it shows.

The B&Ws sound good, the A-500 works fine.

The AR XA needs to be updated - the headshell was broken when I received it and while it was in ok condition, it hasn't been used for sometime. I am looking forward to restoring this and the other freebie turntables.

I have listened to a lot of gear and would love to be able to get into some tube equipment. Only to have a different perspective on things. I tend to keep things until they die and can't be resuscitated.

Can you get the "BEST"? Sure. But I think you need to define what the best is. If it is no holds barred, no cost barrier, no size or lifestyle barrier, then feel free to tell me that the gear sucks. But most people face constraints of some sort. The question is can you fit your needs / wants into the constraints you have. I won't argue that the Techdas Air Force 1 turntable is better than anything I have. For $100k, it should be. I won't argue that the Magico Q7s, Lyngdorf Steinway, Daniel Hertz speakers are better than my NS1000s. For the dollars, they should be. Do I think that these are $99K better? Can't say for certain as I haven't listened to them nor do I have the finances to swing these kind of purchases. But I am a rational guy, my gut says no. Audiophiles are different cats, kind of like car guys. But I think that, for the most part, Japanese gear has represented decent to good value for the dollar / euro...

Some of the Japanese gear from the late '70s / early 80s was great. Nakamichi, Micro Seiki, Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer, Accuphase and others all put out some very special pieces. Unfortunately, most of these pieces stayed in Japan or had very limited distribution elsewhere. Most consumers were treated to entry to mid-level Japanese components and so the profile of Japanese manufacturers has been diminished.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

This is just sitting there doing nothing.

 

[flez007]

My turntable...

 

[Hellenic Vanagon]

Hello from Greece!

My first post here is due to this discovery:

Michael Fremer: (Stereophile, 5/14)











Same motor/electronics Servo controled family:



BLIND TEST

TECHNICS SL-1200/120 ORIGINAL MK1 VS REGA PLANAR 3 VS YAMAHA YP-701

BLIND TEST

"Having compared current-model turntables in my home system, I expected the differences among the turntables tested here to be subtle-and frankly, I expected the Rega Planar 3 to beat the vintage turntables easily.

After all, it's belt-drive and the others are direct-drive, and audiophiles say belt-drive is better.
Well, in this case, at least, the audiophiles are wrong.

Simply put, the Technics SL-120 walked all over the other two turntables.
"It's just better balanced in every way," one panelist said.

The SL-120's best attribute was its bass, which was much fuller, more tuneful and more precise than the other turntables could muster.

The difference wasn't subtle; I could hear it even from behind the speakers.

But it wasn't just the bass-the SL-120 also had a warmer, more natural tonal balance than the other turntables.

Of the six listeners, five picked the SL-120 as their clear favorite."


(A photo from the event)


http://www.iavscanada.com/Articles/art_turntable.htm

 

[FrantzM]

This stigma against Japanese audio products from the big brands ...continues to this day. Yamaha has come out with audiophile amps and it has barely made the news.. They also have new speakers that could be the real deal .. From the audiophile world (at least in the USA) big yawn ...

I have the SP-10, still thinking about a serious plinth and base for it ... It will likely ( I have espoused digital) be my last TT unless I find a Kenwood L-07

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hello from Greece!

My first post here is due to this discovery:

Michael Fremer: (Stereophile, 5/14)

View attachment 16108









Same motor/electronics Servo controled family:



BLIND TEST

TECHNICS SL-1200/120 ORIGINAL MK1 VS REGA PLANAR 3 VS YAMAHA YP-701

BLIND TEST

"Having compared current-model turntables in my home system, I expected the differences among the turntables tested here to be subtle-and frankly, I expected the Rega Planar 3 to beat the vintage turntables easily.

After all, it's belt-drive and the others are direct-drive, and audiophiles say belt-drive is better.
Well, in this case, at least, the audiophiles are wrong.

Simply put, the Technics SL-120 walked all over the other two turntables.
"It's just better balanced in every way," one panelist said.

The SL-120's best attribute was its bass, which was much fuller, more tuneful and more precise than the other turntables could muster.

The difference wasn't subtle; I could hear it even from behind the speakers.

But it wasn't just the bass-the SL-120 also had a warmer, more natural tonal balance than the other turntables.

Of the six listeners, five picked the SL-120 as their clear favorite."

View attachment 16109
(A photo from the event)


http://www.iavscanada.com/Articles/art_turntable.htm

How can one make any valid comparisons using different arms and cartridges??????

 

[MylesBAstor]

This stigma against Japanese audio products from the big brands ...continues to this day. Yamaha has come out with audiophile amps and it has barely made the news.. They also have new speakers that could be the real deal .. From the audiophile world (at least in the USA) big yawn ...

I have the SP-10, still thinking about a serious plinth and base for it ... It will likely ( I have espoused digital) be my last TT unless I find a Kenwood L-07

Since when is listening to a product a stigma?

 

[Hellenic Vanagon]

How can one make any valid comparisons using different arms and cartridges??????

"The SL-120 was originally sold without a tonearm, and this sample was fitted with an SME 3009 Series II arm, a design long revered by audiophiles.

A Shure V15 Type III moving-magnet (MM) cartridge was installed on the SME arm.

Although Rega tonearms are well-respected, this turntable happened to be equipped with an SME tonearm-a 3009 Series IIIS, an updated version of the arm we found on the Technics SL-120. And it, too, had a Shure V15 Type III cartridge.

So at least in the case of the Technics SL-120 and the Rega Planar 3, we were hearing almost entirely the sound of the turntables themselves, rather than sound of the tonearms and cartridges."

(From the blind test text).

 

[MylesBAstor]

You had different SOME arms and cartridges on the two tables, not to mention a stock arm on the Yamaha. How is it possible to know you're only hearing the tables?

 

[Hellenic Vanagon]

You had different SOME arms and cartridges on the two tables, not to mention a stock arm on the Yamaha. How is it possible to know you're only hearing the tables?

Focusing on the main rivals, ORIGINAL SL-1200 and Rega Planar 3 we have:

1)exactly the same cartridge

2)An improved arm, of the same manufacturer, on the Rega.

Is this enough to cover the, supposed, inferiority of direct drive player of '70s?

All these myths, produced for decades, against D.D. players, are a mater of better arms on belt drive tables?

And if so, why, on a direct comparison, the direct drive with the same cartridge and with inferior arm sounds so better, (other things being equal)?

And, in any case, where is the "cogging" effect?

Is it covered by a magic, unknown, quality of SME II?

--------

The reviewer was amazed from the unexpected results, also, and tried to check what is going on, making all the necessary adjustments, equalizations:

" I happened to have my audio measurement gear set up for the receiver comparison test Sauck and I had put together that same week, so I used it to make sure there wasn't anything technically amiss with any of the turntables.

I was particularly curious to see if there was a measurable bass boost in the Technics SL-120.

So I ran some test records from Sauck's extensive collection, then analyzed the results.

I didn't find much. In fact, what little I found didn't correspond well with the listening test results.

The Rega Planar 3 produced, overall, the flattest frequency response; it was dead even down to 30 Hz.

The Technics Sl-120 was down -1.64 dB at 30 Hz, while the Yamaha YP-701was down -1.91 dB.

Obviously, none of this could explain the Technics' superior bass.

The Rega also had a flatter treble response, and in fact it even showed a slight boost at very high frequencies: up +1.4 dB at 10 kHz, while the Technics was down -1.88 dB and the Yamaha was down -2.47 dB.

I suppose the Rega's superior treble response might have had the subjective effect of making the tonal balance sound thin.

That still wouldn't explain the Technics' awesome bass, though."

And

"But it wasn't just the bass-the SL-120 also had a warmer, more natural tonal balance than the other turntables."

 

[MylesBAstor]

Focusing on the main rivals, ORIGINAL SL-1200 and Rega Planar 3 we have:

1)exactly the same cartridge

2)An improved arm, of the same manufacturer, on the Rega.

Is this enough to cover the, supposed, inferiority of direct drive player of '70s?

All these myths, produced for decades, against D.D. players, are a mater of better arms on belt drive tables?

And if so, why, on a direct comparison, the direct drive with the same cartridge and with inferior arm sounds so better, (other things being equal)?

And, in any case, where is the "cogging" effect?

Is it covered by a magic, unknown, quality of SME II?

--------

The reviewer was amazed from the unexpected results, also, and tried to check what is going on, making all the necessary adjustments, equalizations:

" I happened to have my audio measurement gear set up for the receiver comparison test Sauck and I had put together that same week, so I used it to make sure there wasn't anything technically amiss with any of the turntables.

I was particularly curious to see if there was a measurable bass boost in the Technics SL-120.

So I ran some test records from Sauck's extensive collection, then analyzed the results.

I didn't find much. In fact, what little I found didn't correspond well with the listening test results.

The Rega Planar 3 produced, overall, the flattest frequency response; it was dead even down to 30 Hz.

The Technics Sl-120 was down -1.64 dB at 30 Hz, while the Yamaha YP-701was down -1.91 dB.

Obviously, none of this could explain the Technics' superior bass.

The Rega also had a flatter treble response, and in fact it even showed a slight boost at very high frequencies: up +1.4 dB at 10 kHz, while the Technics was down -1.88 dB and the Yamaha was down -2.47 dB.

I suppose the Rega's superior treble response might have had the subjective effect of making the tonal balance sound thin.

That still wouldn't explain the Technics' awesome bass, though."

And

"But it wasn't just the bass-the SL-120 also had a warmer, more natural tonal balance than the other turntables."

I don't even know where to begin. Glad you had fun.

 

[Hellenic Vanagon]

I don't even know where to begin. Glad you had fun.

Thank you very much!

Here is mine:

NASA SPACE CERTIFIED (By National Panasonic Technics)



And here is NASA's reaction:

Recorded phone call by NASA and sended to me by email:

"- Hello there! Are you Hellenic Vanagon? NASA is speaking!

-Hello!

-You are stupid!

-Sir?

-NASA did not , do not and will not certify any damned TECHNICS turntable.

We are the most spectacular team on the planet, and are not going to bother with you and with your gatzets, bloody Greeks!
(After all, here we like Linn with Lingo, you know...).

-But sir, how did you find me?

-Our global surveyor satellite finds anything!

We order you to delete any idiotic post you have done in any site!

-Sir, recalling human rights, I am not going to accept that!

Believe it or not, you are not the only super power any more!

Chinese vehicle is walking on the moon!

-You said Chinese! Ya, we know , ASUS, CAV, etc. etc..

Go immediately and turn on your Chinese stereo and tell me if works!

- But why? Any way, just a moment please!

No it does not work at all!

- See? Don’t ever tell me about China and Chinese products!

-I am going to fight you!

-You are dead!"

(O.k., just a joke)