A different philosophy.

[NorthStar]

A little background first...
Yesterday, I had an extremely interesting and informative conversation with one of the premier amp and digital designers in our hobby ( his name shall remain confidential). The event that I had this conversation at was an a'phile gathering wherein the designer/manufacturer was showing his latest gear. After he had introduced himself to the audience, he gave us some insight into his background and history, which included the fact that he worked in the pro audio world in the past. His job in the pro audio world was to design and build amps and other gear for some fairly well known musicians. Apparently, he was successful in that endeavor and moved on to high end audio many years back.
After the introduction, the group had the opportunity of meeting one on one. I went up to him and asked him a simple question...this based on the fact that he told the group that he designs his gear with no listening sessions whatsoever. Instead, he relies solely on specs and measurements. My question: when he was working for the musicians, how did he know what sound they were trying to achieve if he never listened to the gear?...( I thought he would answer as follows: I had numerous discussions with the artists and they gave me an idea as to the sound they wanted...if that is possible)
Anyhow, that was NOT the answer I received, instead, the manufacturer/designer told me that the gear was designed on paper following again various specs and measurements.
Now here's where it gets really interesting......as I dabble a little with playing music and have enjoyed both the pro audio side and the a'phile side for many years, I asked him since he does not listen to his gear what makes him know if it sounds good???
The answer--- " I hate music and never want to listen to it"...BUT I do this for a living and enjoying music is irrelevant to my ability to produce gear. ( I was a little shocked at this answer...).
The thing that this designer tells me next, makes me think...he asks me, how many designer's and manufacturer's really like music at all...and why do they have to like music to be able to create great gear to reproduce it? He also asks...how many people that are in his business completely dislike all music and are honest enough to state this fact...as he just did!

On reflection, this is an interesting point...In his opinion,a great electrical designer/engineer has enough electrical engineering experience and 'chops' to never have to listen to his gear...simply relying on measurements and known theory. No need to ever submit oneself to the unpleasant aspect of listening to music ( which as I said, he made a strong point of telling me how much he dislikes all music...to him it is an unpleasant and unfulfilling experience), when as he states..someone else will do that for him ( he did tell me he has a listening panel that he also consults; although I did not get the feeling that he puts much merit in their opinion) and he apparently gets feedback from his customers.
A different philosophy than mine...because IMHO if you have no clue what the sound of the 'real' sounds like ( and enjoy same), how can you ever realize- or hope to design for it....or maybe I am completely wrong....

Your thoughts?

1. He has musician friends who trust him. Just that is enough to go beyond conventional barriers.
2. He is over exaggerating...a little. Even the people who hate music (I've meet one or three in my life), they still like some noises, sounds, whatever ...birds singing, wind, rivers, ocean waves, voices, people talking and asking him to build some amps, etc...
3. He's @ certain point in his life where he's finally in charge of his own destiny, a crisis or it's about time.
4. A woman having an orgasm is sweet music to all normal men; you should have told him that.
5. He's an affirmative man, that's all...not the end of the world, and not the beginning either.
6. Ask him to join us, just for life's enjoyment...pure and simple...no constraints, no attachments...total freedom of choice and expression; good for him, and good for us.

Those are my thoughts.

 

[DaveyF]

1. He has musician friends who trust him. Just that is enough to go beyond conventional barriers.
2. He is over exaggerating...a little. Even the people who hate music (I've meet one or three in my life), they still like some noises, sounds, whatever ...birds singing, wind, rivers, ocean waves, voices, people talking and asking him to build some amps, etc...
3. He's @ certain point in his life where he's finally in charge of his own destiny, a crisis or it's about time.
4. A woman having an orgasm is sweet music to all normal men; you should have told him that.
5. He's an affirmative man, that's all...not the end of the world, and not the beginning either.
6. Ask him to join us, just for life's enjoyment...pure and simple...no constraints, no attachments...total freedom of choice and expression; good for him, and good for us.

Those are my thoughts.

Bob, I like your thoughts...even though I am not quite seeing the relevance of some of them.
Nonetheless, as to point 2, I am sure he likes to be able to use his ears vs. being deaf; although I am at a loss why that has anything to do with enjoying/appreciating or hating music.Your point #4...I will definitely have to remember that next time I talk to him...or anyone with an
attitude like he has....err, NOT, LOL.

 

[c1ferrari]

I do think that his engineering prowess is probably well deserved, but his products are certainly much better received than I would have thought, given his philosophy. ( Which he made a point of saying is something that he is, in his opinion, unique in displaying).I can only presume that the consumers of his products may not be aware of this...or don't care about it??

Well, I would concur such disdain furnished publicly is no doubt...unqiue. I wonder if his pro clients fathom the position?
I've only heard his gear in show environments -- not my choice for clean gear.

 

[Rodney Gold]

The guy that designs the motor for a car doesnt actually have to drive or even drive the car he's designing for .. so long as the motor works well ..
As to designers hating music..well all the guys I know that design gear , also love music ..I think that hating music is the exception.

 

[ack]

Actually, I think most people here would be surprised at the name of the company and the designer. Although, I guess paying dearly for the fancy box and faceplate is perhaps more common than we might believe, I don't think this fully applies to the gear that this manufacturer produces.
I do think that his engineering prowess is probably well deserved, but his products are certainly much better received than I would have thought, given his philosophy. ( Which he made a point of saying is something that he is, in his opinion, unique in displaying).I can only presume that the consumers of his products may not be aware of this...or don't care about it??

The irony is that he demo'd his products to you guys with music, not by running down a deck of slides; and we wouldn't be buying his products based just on specs, either. So, to me, he's basically a fool, albeit a great engineer.

 

[DaveyF]

The irony is that he demo'd his products to you guys with music, not by running down a deck of slides; and we wouldn't be buying his products based just on specs, either. So, to me, he's basically a fool, albeit a great engineer.

Perhaps, but this fool seems to be fooling a lot of people in our hobby. I think his point that because he is in the audio electronics biz doesn't mean that he has to enjoy or listen to music is maybe valid??? Remember, this guy is a manufacturer of gear that we
( a'philes) buy and enjoy ( well a lot of us...not all of us, as I would personally NOT buy his gear after this disclosure, and after I have now heard it)...and we pay him large sums of money for the gear that he designs and produces.
Question is whether he is in the majority of designers of high end electronics and speakers or in the minority. I would like to think he is in the minority, but according to him, there are many such as he...but not willing to come forth with this 'different philosophy'!
I have no idea if this is correct, maybe some of the people more attuned to the manufacturer's side of things can comment here.

 

[ack]

Well, indeed, we are the fools, I was just being careful how to phrase it. My sense has been that he's in the majority, not the minority. Anyway, since this was a public disclosure to you guys, why not share his name.

 

[DaveyF]

Well, indeed, we are the fools, I was just being careful how to phrase it. My sense has been that he's in the majority, not the minority. Anyway, since this was a public disclosure to you guys, why not share his name.

The designer in question actually disclosed this to me in a separate conversation in the 'one on one' session. Therefore, I feel it best to not disclose his name.

If he is indeed in the majority, I'm not sure what that says for the industry, or for that matter the perception that we should have about it???

 

[spazmatron]

If I was on the road promoting audio kit I designed I too would wind up audiophiles by telling them I don't listen to it. I hate music...

The amusement would be a great consolation to tedious grind that is meet and greet.

 

[esldude]

The designer in question actually disclosed this to me in a separate conversation in the 'one on one' session. Therefore, I feel it best to not disclose his name.

If he is indeed in the majority, I'm not sure what that says for the industry, or for that matter the perception that we should have about it???

It would tell you about something you don't want to be told. Things you refuse to believe even when the truth slips out at times. It would point to the unfortunate truth that deception is more successful than honesty in the high end music business.

 

[ack]

The designer in question actually disclosed this to me in a separate conversation in the 'one on one' session. Therefore, I feel it best to not disclose his name.

If he is indeed in the majority, I'm not sure what that says for the industry, or for that matter the perception that we should have about it???

It's still a public disclosure, despite it was during a 'one on one' - you are still the 'public', an unknown consumer to him.

 

[esldude]

I don't know who the designer in question is, but he isn't the only example. Daniel Weiss has said pretty much the same thing in public interviews. He designs his gear, and doesn't listen to it until after it is designed, and the listening is not part of the design process. If there is a problem he says their professional customers would alert them to it.

 

[PeterA]

Let's see. You said he designs electronics. I believe that Nelson Pass listens to music, loves music and that each design goes through extensive listening tests before it is released as a product. So that is one designer off the list. I feel better now. Can we eliminate any others? Perhaps Keith Johnson of Spectral because of Reference Recordings. He clearly loves music. Nick Doshi loves music. Any others....

 

[amirm]

A few things.

1. Anyone who comes and tells me he hates music, is not going to be my friend. I only know one other person who did. He was my new boss and a few months later, I was working in some other department.

2. The man has no common sense and should be kept away from any public meetings like this. This is common with many excellent engineers but companies know to keep them away from potential customers.

3. He is probably simply iterating on previous designs. Making them have more or less powerful, more or less expensive, more or less robust. None of that requires any listening input. He knows the basic formula and is changing variables in it.

 

[KeithR]

The designer in question actually disclosed this to me in a separate conversation in the 'one on one' session. Therefore, I feel it best to not disclose his name.

If he is indeed in the majority, I'm not sure what that says for the industry, or for that matter the perception that we should have about it???

Give us a break, Davey. You aren't his best friend - if he didn't want it disclosed, he would never have told an audiophile at a meeting. Just spill the beans.

I've asked Alon Wolf about his home system - he basically doesn't have one except a very old skeleton Mini. He told me he works all day around it, so not the first thing he wants to do when he gets home. In a similar vein, many chefs don't like to cook when they get home from the restaurant. This isn't the same thing as hating food, etc. but I can see why they feel that way.

 

[Andre Marc]

Give us a break, Davey. You aren't his best friend - if he didn't want it disclosed, he would never have told an audiophile at a meeting. Just spill the beans.

I've asked Alon Wolf about his home system - he basically doesn't have one except a very old skeleton Mini. He told me he works all day around it, so not the first thing he wants to do when he gets home. In a similar vein, many chefs don't like to cook when they get home from the restaurant. This isn't the same thing as hating food, etc. but I can see why they feel that way.

How many very successful, supremely talented musicians do you think have playback systems beyond computers or smart devices? Almost none.

There is a total disconnect.

 

[esldude]

While we are all curious who it is, I take it the point of the post was about how common his philosophy was. If he told it one to one, okay maybe technically it was public. I would think if he wanted it announced far and wide he would do so in a more public manner. He may not care either way. However, without further insight, I too would not divulge his identity. That just seems low class like one of those Hollywood photographers trying to dig around and find something to put in tabloids. If he doesn't want it widely publicized you also would reduce chances he or someone like him is honest about such in public in the future.

So I would tell Davey to keep the identity to himself just like he has so far.

 

[asiufy]

All I know is that I won't be home without some kind of quality system, even if I'm 8-10 hours a day around gear and music. Maybe something simple, like a Linn combo or the Avantgarde Zero 1s, due to room limitations... Right now, I'm in between homes, and listening to music on headphones

So, I don't get the whole "I do this all day" thing. You can bet any decent chef won't be keen to go back home and cook some more. But he sure will have all the nice knives, pots and pans to cook a decent meal if the mood strikes him.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

How many very successful, supremely talented musicians do you think have playback systems beyond computers or smart devices? Almost none.

There is a total disconnect.

I know a lot of musicians. Successful and supremely talented? More of the latter than the former. Almost all of them have systems beyond computers and smart devices. Most musicians play along with recordings at home. So most of them have something loud enough and clear enough to do that with. It may be 70s or 80s mid-fi. It may be a pair of recording monitors, because many of them have desktop studios in their music rooms. It may be small PA in a rehearsal space. But they're all beyond earbuds and computer speakers. What very few musicians have, is audiophile systems. They have other places to spend their money.

Tim

 

[Andre Marc]

I know a lot of musicians. Successful and supremely talented? More of the latter than the former. Almost all of them have systems beyond computers and smart devices. Most musicians play along with recordings at home. So most of them have something loud enough and clear enough to do that with. It may be 70s or 80s mid-fi. It may be a pair of recording monitors, because many of them have desktop studios in their music rooms. It may be small PA in a rehearsal space. But they're all beyond earbuds and computer speakers. What very few musicians have, is audiophile systems. They have other places to spend their money.

Tim

Yes, that is actually what I meant. Although a very good friend plays in the symphony and has nothing beyond computer speakers, despite having a very large and expensive piano in the living room. I also know a jazz recording artist in New York who has nothing but a pair of Beats and a laptop.

BTW, in no way do I look down on them or give a damn. Everyone has different priorities.