A different philosophy.

[dallasjustice]

Seems strange, how about having a passion for what you do? For me, that's the most important thing. If I didn't like music working on the gear would be much less rewarding. I think the best designers measure AND listen!

How do you know whether he's passionate about what he does? What listeners do when they listen to music is totally different from what designers do when they design gear. It's like telling the neurosurgeon who is about to save your life based his many years of specialized training that you only want a surgeon who has experienced the same surgery him/herself. How do you know whether that Doctor really cares about what he/she does?

Btw, I've talked to more than one audiophile engineer who feels the exact same way as described in the OP. One of them publicly claims to be a big music lover on his manufacturer website. However, he told me at RMAF several years ago that he doesn't listen to music and doesn't consider his customer's feedback about how something sounds. He's a very highly respected digital designer.

How about lawyers? If you got charged with a crime, would you limit your search to only lawyers who were also criminals? Better Call Saul, "When the going gets tough . . . you need a criminal lawyer."
[video]https://youtu.be/JNMQqh1ovlM[/video]

 

[DaveC]

How do you know whether he's passionate about what he does? What listeners do when they listen to music is totally different from what designers do when they design gear. It's like telling the neurosurgeon who is about to save your life based his many years of specialized training that you only want a surgeon who has experienced the same surgery him/herself. How do you know whether that Doctor really cares about what he/she does?

Btw, I've talked to more than one audiophile engineer who feels the exact same way as described in the OP. One of them publicly claims to be a big music lover on his manufacturer website. However, he told me at RMAF several years ago that he doesn't listen to music and doesn't consider his customer's feedback about how something sounds. He's a very highly respected digital designer.

How about lawyers? If you got charged with a crime, would you limit your search to only lawyers where also criminals? Better Call Saul, "When the going gets tough . . . you need a criminal lawyer."
[video]https://youtu.be/JNMQqh1ovlM[/video]

That is complete gibberish to me, sorry.

If you don't think listening is part of the design process for many designers, actually a huge majority, you'd be wrong. If you don't think designers can correlate listening experience to elements of their designs, again you're wrong.

I know a lot of designers and all of them are also music lovers. The few who aren't and design gear for a living, I am truly sorry for them. They should find something better to do, if they were truly talented I'd guess they would be designing other things, to be honest.

 

[dallasjustice]

That is complete gibberish to me, sorry.

If you don't think listening is part of the design process for many designers, actually a huge majority, you'd be wrong. If you don't think designers can correlate listening experience to elements of their designs, again you're wrong.

I know a lot of designers and all of them are also music lovers. The few who aren't and design gear for a living, I am truly sorry for them. They should find something better to do, if they were truly talented I'd guess they would be designing other things, to be honest.

I guess I better start committing crimes then, if I want more clients who think like you.

It's the same thing with drugs. I am totally against drug criminalization. But the only drug I use is caffeine. I often tell my clients who use all sort of drugs, including marijuana and alcohol, that they should stop using them. I've never personally experienced what they experience. But I know what works and what doesn't work based on my training and experience. It's no different for engineers.

For me personally, I don't want gear which only sounds good to a single engineer in some unknown listening environment. I want gear that is part of a bigger system which will reproduce music in a way which I believe will most likely sound good to a large number of people. This way, my chance of enjoying the system is much better.

 

[DaveC]

I guess I better start committing crimes then, if I want more clients who think like you.

It's the same thing with drugs. I am totally against drug criminalization. But the only drug I use is caffeine. I often tell my clients who use all sort of drugs, including marijuana and alcohol, that they should stop using them. I've never personally experienced what they experience. But I know what works and what doesn't work based on my training and experience. It's no different for engineers.

For me personally, I don't want gear which only sounds good to a single engineer in some unknown listening environment. I want gear that is part of a bigger system which will reproduce music in a way which I believe will most likely sound good to a large number of people. This way, my chance of enjoying the system is much better.

You must be a good lawyer because you don't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Your last paragraph is a nice false dichotomy though, assuming engineers who listen are making only colored equipment. Ridiculous and insulting to the great majority of audio designers who do just that.

 

[dallasjustice]

You must be a good lawyer because you don't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Your last paragraph is a nice false dichotomy though, assuming engineers who listen are making only colored equipment. Ridiculous and insulting to the great majority of audio designers who do just that.

btw, your speakers cables look cool. I like the way the white conduit looks with the red litz wire tails. It's very elegant.

 

[Whatmore]

Ack, this guy actually designs and manufactures some of the most highly thought of amps and digital gear on the market!! Not in any way mid-fi! I listened to the gear at length at the meet, it was not to my taste, but I can easily see how many would like the sound and pay dearly for it.
The question is how many designers and manufacturers in our hobby are exactly like him--- in the speaker field, the electronics area, the turntable area and so on??
Does the intense dislike of music have anything to do with their ability to design and produce great audio gear???

I think the really interesting question is "does it matter?".
Without knowing who it is, clearly if he designs some of the most highly thought of gear on the market it doesn't matter.

So why all the teeth gnashing ?

 

[spazmatron]

The guys involved in all my gear listened to it, plus the big companies will probably focus group thier products.

 

[esldude]

You must be a good lawyer because you don't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Your last paragraph is a nice false dichotomy though, assuming engineers who listen are making only colored equipment. Ridiculous and insulting to the great majority of audio designers who do just that.

Actually this is the false idea. At least in principle it is possible to design gear for high fidelity and transparency. By definition anything that sounds different is colored. Two transparent units will sound the same. So tuning by ear will likely be colored.

 

[DaveC]

Actually this is the false idea. At least in principle it is possible to design gear for high fidelity and transparency. By definition anything that sounds different is colored. Two transparent units will sound the same. So tuning by ear will likely be colored.

Your thoughts that anything that measures well is uncolored is something I don't agree with. Also, another false dichotomy that designers can't listen and measure at the same time. Again, ridiculous and offensive to the huge majority of audio designers that listen to make sure their designs sound good.

In my case, cables... (not that you believe cables can sound different), listening is the only way to make a transparent cable. And yes, I've measured them but it doesn't tell you much... Almost everyone who tries my cables has a similar response to Andre, but I guess that's pure chance or mass delusion....

www.avrev.com/home-theater-accessor...cables-and-surgex-zenwave-edition-review.html

Both measuring and listening are valuable and important in audio design, imo.

 

[esldude]

Your thoughts that anything that measures well is uncolored is something I don't agree with. Also, another false dichotomy that designers can't listen and measure at the same time. Again, ridiculous and offensive to the huge majority of audio designers that listen to make sure their designs sound good.

In my case, cables... (not that you believe cables can sound different), listening is the only way to make a transparent cable. And yes, I've measured them but it doesn't tell you much... Almost everyone who tries my cables has a similar response to Andre, but I guess that's pure chance or mass delusion....

www.avrev.com/home-theater-accessor...cables-and-surgex-zenwave-edition-review.html

Both measuring and listening are valuable and important in audio design, imo.

If two pieces of gear sound different at a minimum one of them, and possibly both of them are colored. To claim otherwise is offensive to many more people than just designers.

If your cable is transparent then anything that sounds different is colored and of lower fidelity. You also will not be able to improve upon them. So the only advances left would be to make them equally good for less money. As you offer more than one level of cabling is the most expensive one the only transparent cable?

 

[Blizzard]

Your thoughts that anything that measures well is uncolored is something I don't agree with. Also, another false dichotomy that designers can't listen and measure at the same time. Again, ridiculous and offensive to the huge majority of audio designers that listen to make sure their designs sound good.

In my case, cables... (not that you believe cables can sound different), listening is the only way to make a transparent cable. And yes, I've measured them but it doesn't tell you much... Almost everyone who tries my cables has a similar response to Andre, but I guess that's pure chance or mass delusion....

www.avrev.com/home-theater-accessor...cables-and-surgex-zenwave-edition-review.html

Both measuring and listening are valuable and important in audio design, imo.

Hi Dave,

How would you compare your straight copper cable to the same cables only using the silver/gold blend? I'm thinking about buying a spool of the 26 gauge hookup wire. Also need to build some short shielded, balanced interconnect cable as well.

 

[DaveC]

If two pieces of gear sound different at a minimum one of them, and possibly both of them are colored. To claim otherwise is offensive to many more people than just designers.

If your cable is transparent then anything that sounds different is colored and of lower fidelity. You also will not be able to improve upon them. So the only advances left would be to make them equally good for less money. As you offer more than one level of cabling is the most expensive one the only transparent cable?

Both are colored... transparent is a relative term anyways, not an absolute. I would never claim my D4 IC cables are perfect, just more transparent than most.

And yes, with ZenWave Audio, the more you spend the less the cable does. Cables get progressively warmer as you go down the line, a necessity to be able to offer less expensive alternatives.

 

[DaveC]

Hi Dave,

How would you compare your straight copper cable to the same cables only using the silver/gold blend? I'm thinking about buying a spool of the 26 gauge hookup wire. Also need to build some short shielded, balanced interconnect cable as well.

Copper is warmer and smoother sounding, some people do prefer this but the UPOCC silver and silver/gold alloy wire is far more resolving and adds no warmth. The gold alloy isn't warm like copper, but it is more realistic sounding vs pure silver due to differences in timbre, dynamics and the "solidity" of images in the soundstage.

^This is not measurable, but easily audible!

I'll give you a better price than PCX, lol...

 

[esldude]

Both are colored... transparent is a relative term anyways, not an absolute.

And yes, with ZenWave Audio, the more you spend the less the cable does. Cables get progressively warmer as you go down the line, a necessity to be able to offer less expensive alternatives.

So do you not believe a fully transparent cable is possible? While you meant it in relative terms I think it would be clear I did not. Do you not believe in the possibility of fully transparent, uncolored, high fidelity gear without the relativism?

 

[Folsom]

It's nearly impossible to comment, when after a public event you're not telling us who was there speaking.

But there's something overlooked here. You mentioned "theory" and that's because if this guy didn't read about what others have found to be true for what makes something sound good, he'd be utterly clueless. You literally can't learn what makes a good amplifier by going to school for it. Sure, there's a fair bit you can learn, but the notation found from those who have had to come up with something good enough to sell is the other side of the equation to being an electronics engineers for audiophile grade stuff.

For example anyone that has read anything about what audiophiles like knows what type of harmonic distortion is acceptable. Without that tiny bit of information one might have disastrous outcomes.

I knew a chef that hated vegetarian food, but he made some amazing dishes he'd never tasted, ever. But the thing was he knew a lot about what a vegetarian liked, not just how to cook something to a proper temperature.

 

[Blizzard]

Copper is warmer and smoother sounding, some people do prefer this but the UPOCC silver and silver/gold alloy wire is far more resolving and adds no warmth. The gold alloy isn't warm like copper, but it is more realistic sounding vs pure silver due to differences in timbre, dynamics and the "solidity" of images in the soundstage.

^This is not measurable, but easily audible!

I'll give you a better price than PCX, lol...

That's what I thought. I do love the copper Neotech with my ribbon tweeters right now. I'm running very detailed mids full range, with no passive components. So the tad bit of warmth is welcome with this system. But, I can easily add the warmth in the digital domain, but I can't add detail and soundstage when the limitation is hardware based. This is why I'm considering going silver/gold.

Can I make nice interconnects from that 26 gauge wire? It will be for internal hookup. I would rather buy from you anyways even though I have an OEM account with PCX. I like dealing with vendors who can answer my questions. I have no idea how they can sell such a wide variety of cool stuff, and have absolutely no knowledge of about anything they sell.

 

[DaveC]

So do you not believe a fully transparent cable is possible? While you meant it in relative terms I think it would be clear I did not. Do you not believe in the possibility of fully transparent, uncolored, high fidelity gear without the relativism?

Well, I have not been able to make a cable with zero LCR and do not believe it's possible, and then there's all the other factors that are unknown that affect the sound... so technically no, it's absolutely not possible to make a completely transparent anything. Since we can't operate a system without cables, amps and speakers, it's all relative to other cables, amps and speakers.

 

[DaveC]

That's what I thought. I do love the copper Neotech with my ribbon tweeters right now. I'm running very detailed mids full range, with no passive components. So the tad bit of warmth is welcome with this system. But, I can easily add the warmth in the digital domain, but I can't add detail and soundstage when the limitation is hardware based. This is why I'm considering going silver/gold.

Can I make nice interconnects from that 26 gauge wire? It will be for internal hookup. I would rather buy from you anyways even though I have an OEM account with PCX. I like dealing with vendors who can answer my questions. I have no idea how they can sell such a wide variety of cool stuff, and have absolutely no knowledge of about anything they sell.

Sure, you can use the 26g wire for internal wiring or cables, I'll give you some tips on geometry, etc via PM/email when you're ready...

 

[esldude]

Well, I have not been able to make a cable with zero LCR and do not believe it's possible, and then there's all the other factors that are unknown that affect the sound... so technically no, it's absolutely not possible to make a completely transparent anything. Since we can't operate a system without cables, amps and speakers, it's all relative to other cables, amps and speakers.

So this starts with the complaint about insults to those designing gear by ear when some one said it was colored. Now you are saying nothing can be uncolored. Curious pattern of thought.

 

[DaveC]

So this starts with the complaint about insults to those designing gear by ear when some one said it was colored. Now you are saying nothing can be uncolored. Curious pattern of thought.

That was a false dichotomy, claiming designers who listen don't produce transparent gear. This is not only false, but imo it's possible for designers who listen to produce gear that's more transparent vs those who do not. For example, coupling capacitors... a Solen MKP might get the job done and measure the same as a Jupiter copper foil cap, but if you listen you'd realize the Jupiter cap is far more transparent. Some things you can't measure, or we don't understand how to interpret the measurements. Obviously those who disagree with that statement may disagree with what I'm saying, but audio design is both art and science in many ways, and it takes both to make the best gear. Those who do not listen are bound to make poor choices as a result and will never make the best gear.