A live music feed

[Gregadd]

Since my claim that my reference is live music has resulted in my being called everything from a liar, to B.S.'er, to naive, I have given considerable thought to how to prove the point.

It seems to me that there should be a relatively easy way to have live music played through your system and compare it to the live sample. Indeed since we have several recording engineers on this site they might assist us in helping me choose a relatively inexpensive stereo microphone pair and mic preamp that I could feed through some playback device and and compare it to a live feed.

Nothing is perfect but it appears it could be done rather easily. I did joke once that
I wished I could have Cassaundra Wilson in my house and have her group play in one room and then listen to her play via live feed in another. Of course there is no real need to have a musician of that quality. Any local group or ensemble would suffice.

It would be a good project for a local audio society who could share the expense and work involved. Sounds like fun to me.

mic preamp http://www.tweakheadz.com/microphone_preamps.htm

The first step would be selecting a good pair of microphones and a mic preamp. Sort of the frond end of a recording sysytem.

 

[audioguy]

A very long time ago a speaker designer in Ft Worth did exactly what u described. He had two identically sized rooms in his place that were quite some distance apart. A small group played in one room and his speakers were in the other fed by a live mic feed. While it was no contest as to the live versus "memorex" results, it was very fascinating.

 

[Vincent Kars]

Sean Olive has some thoughts about this
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-live-versus-recorded-listening.html

 

[FrantzM]

Since my claim that my reference is live music has resulted in my being called everything from a liar, to B.S.'er, to naive, I have given considerable thought to how to prove the point.

It seems to me that there should be a relatively easy way to have live music played through your system and compare it to the live sample. Indeed since we have several recording engineers on this site they might assist us in helping me choose a relatively inexpensive stereo microphone pair and mic preamp that I could feed through some playback device and and compare it to a live feed.

Nothing is perfect but it appears it could be done rather easily. I did joke once that
I wished I could have Cassaundra Wilson in my house and have her group play in one room and then listen to her play via live feed in another. Of course there is no real need to have a musician of that quality. Any local group or ensemble would suffice.

It would be a good project for a local audio society who could share the expense and work involved. Sounds like fun to me.

mic preamp http://www.tweakheadz.com/microphone_preamps.htm

The first step would be selecting a good pair of microphones and a mic preamp. Sort of the frond end of a recording sysytem.

Greg

This, also is my philosophy... I diverge from you on many Audio aspects but not about this one. That would be an interesting project...

 

[Bruce B]

Our DAD AX24 has mic pre's in it. We also have a Millennia HV-3D and an omni stereo pair of Neumann or Earthworks mics or LDC for solo singer/instrument. I know Mike L's room is big enough for this. I'd even bring in the necessary equipment.
We have 2 rooms, but the control room equipment is far from "audiophile approved"!

 

[Gregadd]

Music could be from a small jazz trio with a female vocalist or a string quartet playing chamber music.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

That would be fun and interesting. We would only get an idea of how one system performed relative to one simple live performance into one pair of microphones, in one placement, but it would be interesting. Then we would go back to a world full of studio recordings for which the live performance can never be the reference because it never really existed in the first place, and a world full of live recordings in which the recorder is plugged directly into the board and the reference isn't much more "live" than studio recordings. A world in which the live performance reference for audio reproduction still does not exist. In the end, we'll still have the same reference: The accuracy of our electronics in reproducing the recorded signal, and the sound of our speakers in our rooms.

For the record, Gregg, I, for one, never thought you were lying or BS-ing. I simply thought you were wrong. The fact that you argued that the live performance is your reference and you are still trying to find a way to refer to it makes the point.

Tim

 

[Gregadd]

That would be fun and interesting. We would only get an idea of how one system performed relative to one simple live performance into one set of microphones, but it would be interesting. Then we would go back to a world full of studio recordings for which the live performance can never be the reference because it never really existed in the first place.

For the record, Gregg, I, for one, never thought you were lying or BS-ing. I simply thought you were wrong. The fact that you argued that the live performance is your reference and you are still trying to find a way to refer to it makes the point.

Tim

Tim these circular arguments get us no where.. A point does not become anymore true because you keep repeating it. I get it. For the record you did call the pursuit of musicality "disingenuous." In my book that is a gentleman's word for lying. A reference is something you refer to. A yard stick by which other things are measured. You need not necessarily be able to achieve the reference. Real music is the yardstick by which I measure the reproduction of music. The fact that so much recorded music comes short of that goal validates the need for a reference rather than negating it.
Others on this forum have argued that proof involves a methodology that is easily repeatable by the public. Beleive it or not live music is the only real reference. I have satisfied myself on that point. In RMAF 2009 via the you tube video and the same question again in RMAF 2010 was put to Harry Pearson, How can real music be your standard when you don't know what the source sounds like? This same camp claims the source is thier reference when they were not present when it was recorded.
The live feed is an attempt to eliminate a variable.. A live feed is at least would eliminate the, you don't know what the source sounds like variable. If someone is so inclined they could perform this test, with the help of a musician, for themselves. Some are musicians and donlt need any help at all.
I am not creating anything new here. It's already been accomplished. I am just reminding the members that a methodology exists for comparing live music to your music reproduction system. It might be fun to try. You disagree and think I'm wrong. So noted, Again.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It might be fun to try. You disagree and think I'm wrong. So noted, Again.

Actually, I don't disagree. I also think it might be fun. I don't remember the context in which I used disingenuous, but if I seemed to be calling you a liar, I apologize. I also apologize for circling my circular argument into your circular argument. One day, perhaps, I'll learn to let sleeping dogs dream.

Tim

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Our DAD AX24 has mic pre's in it. We also have a Millennia HV-3D and an omni stereo pair of Neumann or Earthworks mics or LDC for solo singer/instrument. I know Mike L's room is big enough for this. I'd even bring in the necessary equipment.
We have 2 rooms, but the control room equipment is far from "audiophile approved"!

i'm game; but why wouldn't we use one room? record a guitar solo or maybe a sax in my room, and then play it back on my system? yes; then we are adding the recording chain to the equation but we are simplifying all other issues. it would be played back in the exact same acoustic it was recorded in which, in theory, would remove the major challenge to matching rooms. i already have the RTR master recorders sitting there so we could compare analog recording to digital. you'd just need to bring the digital recording gear, mics and mic amps. as long as we kept the music simple my system could be kept untouched so the playback chain would be retained. too bad i don't have a cutting lathe so we could compare vinyl to tape as a master.

there would be room for 10-15 observers.

i've always believed that the reference needs to be the master (tape or file), and not the live event; since it's what the mic hears that is the ultimate potential of any recording. while i love live music, the mic is the limitation to hearing reproduced music. everything else can be optimized but the mic is the restriction.

added note; Bruce--isn't this basically what we did when we recorded off my Rockport for that piano recording for Winston Ma? except we used the tape out feed off my darTZeel phono as the source instead of a mic feed.

 

[microstrip]

That experiment would be fun and interesting, even fascinating, but would be of little help to evaluate our systems. We would be mainly evaluating the room acoustics and the sound taking techniques of the life room .

Some days ago I helped a friend to setup a pair of almost twenty years old Bowers&Wilkins Silver Signature monitors for near filed listening. They sounded quite good, but when we played some tracks of the Bowers&Wilkins demo recordings they were divine. A large sound stage, plenty of detail and a very natural sound on voices, even impact in the bass. When we played the "Killer Bees" of Airto Moreira (B&W Music label) it was clearly the best performance I ever listened of this recording. Unhappily other non B&W recordings did not have this extreme sound quality on these speakers. We should remember that many companies demo CDs are just well known tracks that have been processed to sound better on their systems.

Taking conclusions with a single life feed would be similar to the guy who uses only one CD to evaluate equipment when listening to buy.

I have a few CDs of music I heard life with the same performers and I use them to evaluate my system, but I know how dangerous can be this procedure - the very good memories I have of the life performances can also fool me!

 

[Gregadd]

One variable down, many to go.

 

[Steve williams]

I was at CES several years ago when Albert did this little demo and I was an invitee. It was very special.

 

[Gregadd]

Just so we are clear, to me a live feed means strait through and not recorded. my own experience is that those microphones are a lot better than we think. The losses are occuring somewhere else.

 

[naturephoto1]

Don't we all strive to have our systems sound as close as possible to a live performance? Also, the acoustics of the room or the venue itself should have a very dramatic affect on the overall sound. That would be true in an outdoor venue, indoor, and studio.

Rich

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I do think we are making this too complicated. gregadd idea is simjple. Record a small ensemble, then listen to it through a good system and verify how close an approximation it is. At least that is what I undrstood he meant. Yes, there will be variations but the same way a low-fi telephone conversation let us know whose on the other line, the same way I believe this will give us an idea of how our system performs... This is not an exact , precise scientific process or experimentation but hey, it would give us a vague idea ...

I remember a philosophy teacher insisting that all in life is not scientific experimentation requiring proofs and the likes .. He was fond of saying (or quoting someone, I don't remember) that Einstein did not invoke Thermodynamics when he was boiling his eggs ... Same here.. That will give us an idea.. Ar least those who would have heard the thing live ...

 

[Gregadd]

Record a small ensemble

Agtually I wanted it live, then compare it straigtht through without recording. We could aslo record it for our What'bestforum cd.

 

[RBFC]

We could aslo record it for our What'sbestforum cd.

I'm officially floored! Someone is actually thinking of contributing to this project!

Thanks!

Lee

 

[FrantzM]

Gregadd

Well that makes it kind of difficult, one would have to go back and forth between the system and the original event and that would be limited to only a few people at a time... Hard to devise a protocol under such conditions but hey .. one can always try.

 

[Gregadd]

The question then remains how to persuade some poor unsuspecting musicians to come and play for free.