A Pilgrimage to Ground ZERO

[DaveyF]

Three times the price of Premium. One must be wealthy and really into turntable.

A question occurs to me...

Do these guys realize that at a certain price, that they have priced themselves entirely out of the market.
Or maybe there is no such price....If that is indeed the case, i am very impressed that these guys know that! ( one or two buyers...and they know exactly who these
people are, and how to get to them!!!)

 

[Tango]

A question occurs to me...

Do these guys realize that at a certain price, that they have priced themselves entirely out of the market.
Or maybe there is no such price....If that is indeed the case, i am very impressed that these guys know that! ( one or two buyers...and they know exactly who these
people are, and how to get to them!!!)

The dealer in Thailand can pinpoint exactly who might want to buy, but no expressed interest from anyone yet. I am sure other countries can do the same.

 

[gian60]

Italian distributor told me in Italy no one bought AF1
He sold some AF3 and 2 AF2

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The dealer in Thailand can pinpoint exactly who might want to buy, but no expressed interest from anyone yet. I am sure other countries can do the same.

until there is feedback from a show or users, at that cost of entry people will stand on the sidelines and wait. and once Christian gets his American Sounds AS-2000 up and running sitting there next to an AF1 that might be the first salvo. and then they will all be gone and there will be a scramble for the last one. it's how these things go.

i heard the AS at David's sitting next to the excellent AF1. 'nuff said.

i know that the AF0 with this motor and platter are a somewhat different flavor than the AS but it's the most relevant compare.

 

[JackD201]

A question occurs to me...

Do these guys realize that at a certain price, that they have priced themselves entirely out of the market.
Or maybe there is no such price....If that is indeed the case, i am very impressed that these guys know that! ( one or two buyers...and they know exactly who these
people are, and how to get to them!!!)

I think there will be a market and actually the market won't be the ultra rich, it will be a be a 'tweener. To borrow from Shaq "he's rich but the guy who signed his paycheck was wealthy LOL". I think the ultra rich will continue struggling with decisions about which private jet or yacht to buy or symphony to bring under their wings. Thee AF0 guys will be the audio guys that will surely have more to spend than us but will likely not be jet set rich. At least not private jet set rich. The guys usually running large concerns but not conglomerates of large concerns. The latter are not known to take several hours a week of sitting at home or are even home much. That's my hunch anyhow.

As for myself personally, even if I can afford it, I feel my record collection wouldn't warrant such a player. It's one of my quirky psychological barriers. The guy whose initials I mentioned does not have either my limited software collection nor the same psych barrier. I know of three other guys none who even go on forums that fit this profile. What these four have in common is not the usual search for beauty most of us have but go for max information retrieval from their very extensive and rare collections of originals. I think products like the AF0 or even AF1s with Duralumin and now Titanium uppers for that matter that matter are what they go for. These tables do not pretty up LP playback in the traditional way of pleasing colorations but rather dynamic shadings from the softest to detonation. I know for a fact and from Nishikawa-sans own words that this is his ultimate GOAL - the colorless sound. Everything else can be chosen to get one's personal flavor as with all other AFs, choice of arms and carts, electronics, speakers, accessories, and acoustics. Just not with the AFO table itself. I see it no different from shooting for the same goes with loudspeakers. The holy grail is to have speakers that both scale up and down with ease. Just imagine speakers like these paired with sources that allow them to push their potential in this regard, further still.

In my case I've already witnessed at least the tungsten upper and the motor, that with "only" the dual vacuum One's platter and how little reflections and resonances are fed back to the cartridge. Damped well enough for one to tap on a playing record. Is it a universally desirable trait? I would say no. Every good table has its charms that will resonate (pun intended) with specific buyers be it the roundedness of sprung tables like my Townshend Rock, the beautiful decays of my TW just to mention what I have. People actually think the AF's main feature is the VHD. It isn't, it's just a part of the Air package. Yes it will give you outer to inner track record surfaces that are akin to a perfect road for our cartridges suspensions to glide on but the vacuum chamber is the real story. The AF0 won't just have a tungsten upper platter, it will have tungsten layers on the massive platter assembly that while probably not as high in size would be crazy in terms of density and inertness greater even than cast iron, THE current material, not steel for inherent self damping and which continues to be the benchmark chased by composite manufacturers for precision metal and stone cutting beds. Actually certain sinter construction surpasses Cast Iron already in this regard (Think Ortofon A90s) the only drawback is cost.

The greatest costs will be from the sintering build process. We're not talking simply vapor deposition like we see on tweeters, bearings or watches like MADs or poorer Bamfords but very large precision pieces that require equally large conclaves to build these pieces layer by layer under immense heat and pressure. Add to that that the sintering process, in this case liquid sintering allows for precise and consistent structure in both material and lattice.

In a way it is the polar opposite of Davids ultimate expression of simplicity. I imagine the AS as the ultimate muscle car (one that actually will corner damn well) The AF1/Duralumin an 8cyl street Ferrari, AF1P/Ti a 6 banger bi-turbo F1 car. The AF0? Probably a mag lev bullet train with minimal windnoise. Seriously, I could very well love any of these and build systems around them. These aren't those ultra mini 1ltr toasters so popular with new Uber drivers.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Jack,

I've read your post twice and not been able to absorb all of it. quite the manifesto of tt exotica.

clearly you circulate in a realm beyond....

later i'll come at it again.

thanks.

 

[JackD201]

I'm just another geek Mike

 

[Steve Williams]

Jack,

I've read your post twice and not been able to absorb all of it. quite the manifesto of tt exotica.

clearly you circulate in a realm beyond....

later i'll come at it again.

thanks.

Mike

Having visited Jack last year and being introduced to some of the uber exotic systems in Manila and then being at the Hong Kong audio show with Jack and meeting even more of his friends I truly believe exactly what Jack stated

 

[Steve Williams]

The dealer in Thailand can pinpoint exactly who might want to buy, but no expressed interest from anyone yet. I am sure other countries can do the same.

They said the same thing about Dave Wilson's WAMM but as I understand it, every person who flew to Utah to audition the speaker ended up buying the speaker so yes there will be plenty of people who will buy the Zero and as Jack points out they are either lurkers on audio forums such as WBF or they just have no interest in the forums at all

 

[Tango]

They said the same thing about Dave Wilson's WAMM but as I understand it, every person who flew to Utah to audition the speaker ended up buying the speaker so yes there will be plenty of people who will buy the Zero and as Jack points out they are either lurkers on audio forums such as WBF or they just have no interest in the forums at all

In my opinion, it will be more of a buy for the purpose of "collecting" as part of the tt collection than for the ultimate source, because we all know the ultimate source could even be something else otherthan a tt. Sure the buyer are likely to be a hardcore wealthy audiophile rather than a billionare who travel on private jet. I thought most people who flew to listen to WAMM were reviewers and industry associates.

Tang

 

[Steve Williams]

In my opinion, it will be more of a buy for the purpose of "collecting" as part of the tt collection than for the ultimate source, because we all know the ultimate source could even be something else otherthan a tt. Sure the buyer are likely to be a hardcore wealthy audiophile rather than a billionare who travel on private jet. I thought most people who flew to listen to WAMM were reviewers and industry associates.

Tang

The only way to hear the WAMM is in Dave Wilson's living room

I am hoping to be there in January

 

[JackD201]

In my opinion, it will be more of a buy for the purpose of "collecting" as part of the tt collection than for the ultimate source, because we all know the ultimate source could even be something else otherthan a tt. Sure the buyer are likely to be a hardcore wealthy audiophile rather than a billionare who travel on private jet. I thought most people who flew to listen to WAMM were reviewers and industry associates.

Tang

Well if the musical medium is records then it is a TT by default. The ultimate for me in the here and now remains tape. Maybe someday, hopefully sooner rather than later.

I see the point about collectors however. I don't have the luxury of rack space so I went back to just one table. The one I used the most. That surely doesn't preclude others from having the gift of choice someone like you has.

 

[ddk]

They said the same thing about Dave Wilson's WAMM but as I understand it, every person who flew to Utah to audition the speaker ended up buying the speaker

The only way to hear the WAMM is in Dave Wilson's living room I am hoping to be there in January

So we’ll be auditioning the Wamm in your room next ?

david

 

[Steve Williams]

I'm just one of the lucky ones who got an invite t hear it but AFAIK anyone who is interested in buying the speaker has to hear it in DW's house

 

[ddk]

Hi Jack,
Earlier tonight Mike L. asked me about your car analogy here, this is where looks are deceiving. The AS is the furthest thing you can find from a muscle car, I wouldn’t have any interest in that kind of sound and it goes against everything I strive for in a system. Dynamics are a given in a tt like the AS but its uncanny ability to play soft fragile notes with delicacy while preserving their full natural authority is what I’ve never heard from any other turntable. All that mass is for ease and finesse or the colorless sound as you called it and not for muscling through...

david

I think there will be a market and actually the market won't be the ultra rich, it will be a be a 'tweener. To borrow from Shaq "he's rich but the guy who signed his paycheck was wealthy LOL". I think the ultra rich will continue struggling with decisions about which private jet or yacht to buy or symphony to bring under their wings. Thee AF0 guys will be the audio guys that will surely have more to spend than us but will likely not be jet set rich. At least not private jet set rich. The guys usually running large concerns but not conglomerates of large concerns. The latter are not known to take several hours a week of sitting at home or are even home much. That's my hunch anyhow.

As for myself personally, even if I can afford it, I feel my record collection wouldn't warrant such a player. It's one of my quirky psychological barriers. The guy whose initials I mentioned does not have either my limited software collection nor the same psych barrier. I know of three other guys none who even go on forums that fit this profile. What these four have in common is not the usual search for beauty most of us have but go for max information retrieval from their very extensive and rare collections of originals. I think products like the AF0 or even AF1s with Duralumin and now Titanium uppers for that matter that matter are what they go for. These tables do not pretty up LP playback in the traditional way of pleasing colorations but rather dynamic shadings from the softest to detonation. I know for a fact and from Nishikawa-sans own words that this is his ultimate GOAL - the colorless sound. Everything else can be chosen to get one's personal flavor as with all other AFs, choice of arms and carts, electronics, speakers, accessories, and acoustics. Just not with the AFO table itself. I see it no different from shooting for the same goes with loudspeakers. The holy grail is to have speakers that both scale up and down with ease. Just imagine speakers like these paired with sources that allow them to push their potential in this regard, further still.

In my case I've already witnessed at least the tungsten upper and the motor, that with "only" the dual vacuum One's platter and how little reflections and resonances are fed back to the cartridge. Damped well enough for one to tap on a playing record. Is it a universally desirable trait? I would say no. Every good table has its charms that will resonate (pun intended) with specific buyers be it the roundedness of sprung tables like my Townshend Rock, the beautiful decays of my TW just to mention what I have. People actually think the AF's main feature is the VHD. It isn't, it's just a part of the Air package. Yes it will give you outer to inner track record surfaces that are akin to a perfect road for our cartridges suspensions to glide on but the vacuum chamber is the real story. The AF0 won't just have a tungsten upper platter, it will have tungsten layers on the massive platter assembly that while probably not as high in size would be crazy in terms of density and inertness greater even than cast iron, THE current material, not steel for inherent self damping and which continues to be the benchmark chased by composite manufacturers for precision metal and stone cutting beds. Actually certain sinter construction surpasses Cast Iron already in this regard (Think Ortofon A90s) the only drawback is cost.

The greatest costs will be from the sintering build process. We're not talking simply vapor deposition like we see on tweeters, bearings or watches like MADs or poorer Bamfords but very large precision pieces that require equally large conclaves to build these pieces layer by layer under immense heat and pressure. Add to that that the sintering process, in this case liquid sintering allows for precise and consistent structure in both material and lattice.

In a way it is the polar opposite of Davids ultimate expression of simplicity. I imagine the AS as the ultimate muscle car (one that actually will corner damn well) The AF1/Duralumin an 8cyl street Ferrari, AF1P/Ti a 6 banger bi-turbo F1 car. The AF0? Probably a mag lev bullet train with minimal windnoise. Seriously, I could very well love any of these and build systems around them. These aren't those ultra mini 1ltr toasters so popular with new Uber drivers.

 

[JackD201]

When I see all that mass, both platter and record weight, huge amounts of inertia is what comes immediately to mind. The kind of mass you would see only on a steel big block. Of course that is not to say that the results are not smooth or that it isn't nimble sonically. I know you like the sound of steel and the sound of copper wire as this sounds most natural to you so speed stability isn't your only reason for using steel. I still think that the mass is a big part of your formula for performance in both speed and damping. I hope I did not come across as making any aspersions as to the sound. If so I sincerely meant none.

I was examining the main platter of the AFs and one could see how the mass was distributed to the periphery with the vacuum chamber occupying the middle of radii of the platter. A different way of getting high inertia with less mass and a different way of damping as well thus my 6 banger turbo analogy for that.

In any case, the important thing in my mind is that we enjoy what we have. I think you and I are result oriented by nature where is "is" is more important than the "how".

Ultimately, for me the silence of the AFs have satisfied me. That is even more apparent now that I am baby sitting 107dB sensitive horns and driving them with ML2.1s. My old table's platter rumble and surface noise was so high with 45 rpm records I hardly played them. That was never the case with any of the AFs I've had here. With these horns which are arguably over powered as is, the silence is even more satisfying.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi, which horns are these, pic?

Also what amps have you tried on them.

 

[Tango]

107db is the same level as mine.

Difficult to keep the hum very low at high volume.

 

[ddk]

When I see all that mass, both platter and record weight, huge amounts of inertia is what comes immediately to mind. The kind of mass you would see only on a steel big block. Of course that is not to say that the results are not smooth or that it isn't nimble sonically. I know you like the sound of steel and the sound of copper wire as this sounds most natural to you so speed stability isn't your only reason for using steel. I still think that the mass is a big part of your formula for performance in both speed and damping. I hope I did not come across as making any aspersions as to the sound. If so I sincerely meant none.

As is for AF tts, old Micro Seikis, EMT 927 relative to other idlers, Thorens & Goldmund Refs and of course the AF-0 mass is integral to their design and from talking to Nishikawa san his zero will top the scales. The

I was examining the main platter of the AFs and one could see how the mass was distributed to the periphery with the vacuum chamber occupying the middle of radii of the platter. A different way of getting high inertia with less mass and a different way of damping as well thus my 6 banger turbo analogy for that.

In any case, the important thing in my mind is that we enjoy what we have. I think you and I are result oriented by nature where is "is" is more important than the "how".

Very true, “is” is what matters but over years of manufacturing I’ve come to realize there are more and less natural ways to arrive at goals and that the paths matter. Loading the periphery is one of those natural ways, they’re all using this same physical principle even for the flywheel. Nishikawa san isn’t exactly new to this, one thing I guarantee that you’ll see in the Zero is major simplification over the AF1 design including aesthetic form. He’s even back to steel for his masterpiece and top premium model, natural paths! Please don’t misconstrue my statements for arrogance, I’m merely stating facts; Nishikawa san is the real master!!!

Ultimately, for me the silence of the AFs have satisfied me. That is even more apparent now that I am baby sitting 107dB sensitive horns and driving them with ML2.1s. My old table's platter rumble and surface noise was so high with 45 rpm records I hardly played them. That was never the case with any of the AFs I've had here. With these horns which are arguably over powered as is, the silence is even more satisfying.

So you’re rediscovering the natural way and path of least resistance, SETs and Horns .

david

 

[microstrip]

(...) I imagine the AS as the ultimate muscle car (one that actually will corner damn well) The AF1/Duralumin an 8cyl street Ferrari, AF1P/Ti a 6 banger bi-turbo F1 car. The AF0? Probably a mag lev bullet train with minimal windnoise. Seriously, I could very well love any of these and build systems around them. These aren't those ultra mini 1ltr toasters so popular with new Uber drivers.

Well, although my first preference would go for the mag lev bullet train with all its servo and feedback systems , my more reasonable choice was the 8cyl street Ferrari - the Air Force One premimum. An AF1 with the Duraluminum platter and the ultimate tungsten stabilizer landed in my room a few days ago. The rack is the Air Force One Mounting Rack - curiously it is manufactured about 500 miles away from me in Spain by Artesania, it travels to Japan and then comes back!