A question about room demands on speakers

[spiritofmusic]

Micro, I've gone from a highly reflective, harsh, cuboid-like London converted factory loft apartment 27x22x13 w concrete beamed ceiling, timber on concrete solid flr, front wall 75% glass, few soft/breakup surfaces, one spkr w side reinforcement, the other in free space, alcoves, mezzanines, nooks and crannies galore ie poor poor POOR, w harsh non transparent sound, lack of imaging, and bass suck out at various modes incl 73Hz and 45Hz (apparently)...
...to this room in what to my ears at least is a quantum impvt, w no parallel ceiling, carpet and GIKs, full acoustic treatment of flr, eaves and walls, spkrs fully symmetrical to room boundaries
Bass is full, extended and even, agile and warm, transparency and imaging off the scale compared to previously, warmth, detail and natural reverb seem altogether lovely
Prob on the slightly overdamped side of neutral, but that's no issue IMHO
In the basis of this 200% positive result, I'm minded that Apogees should benefit from the advantages my Zus have
But I'm more skeptical that in such an expansive space esp re depth, my 70W 211s will have the balls (especially re current delivery) to truly bring those ribbons to life, esp energising the room w bass
The last thing I want is a kind of frequency response alteration in the Duettas where inappropriately driven ribbons sound great at one frequency band, and anaemic in the rest, esp <70Hz

 

[Rodney Gold]

Hiring a crane and possibly having to do structural work to deliver a set of speakers you bought unheard?
surely there is something easier...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Is that directed at me, Rodney?
No, I've heard one variant on the Duettas, Justin's Interstellas
Each Apogee by all accts is a custom build and can vary along a list of ingredients or requirements
A lot/all of what Justin has, I would quite like
From uber stable over braced Al frame, extra stable supports, automotive grade finish
My needs might add to tweaking the ribbons to gain an extra dB or two of sensitivity to better suit my triodes, and having best components in the crossover
I believe the end result should sound pretty/completely identical to the Interstellas
No need for crane or construction
Can easily get the Duettas up main stairs to mezzanine
From there we'd need to winch them vertically up thru my 4'x2' access hatch, 10' above flr level
This is the only tricky bit, w each panel weighing 150kg+ in it's packing crate, and great care needed not to damage the delicate ribbons
It would be an absolute bugger to get all this done and as final adjustment made, grip wrongly and warp a ribbon
And once in, they'll be within 10' of their final position
That's the "easy" bit LOL
The tricky bit would be the dread realisation of finding the PERFECT sound of Justin's Duettas and 211s in a 3x smaller volume morphs into a massive anticlimax in this 3x larger space, as the vastly bigger volume just makes the my Duettas sap my NATs 211s dry
At the Omegas ribbons trial on NATs Transmitters SETetrodes, there is a certain feel of the amps pushing hard in a room volume midway btwn Justin's and mine
But this may be misleading w Analysis prob using different tech and materials
But it's possibly/probably a reasonable doubt

 

[KeithR]

Micro, I've gone from a highly reflective, harsh, cuboid-like London converted factory loft apartment 27x22x13 w concrete beamed ceiling, timber on concrete solid flr, front wall 75% glass, few soft/breakup surfaces, one spkr w side reinforcement, the other in free space, alcoves, mezzanines, nooks and crannies galore ie poor poor POOR, w harsh non transparent sound, lack of imaging, and bass suck out at various modes incl 73Hz and 45Hz (apparently)...
...to this room in what to my ears at least is a quantum impvt, w no parallel ceiling, carpet and GIKs, full acoustic treatment of flr, eaves and walls, spkrs fully symmetrical to room boundaries
Bass is full, extended and even, agile and warm, transparency and imaging off the scale compared to previously, warmth, detail and natural reverb seem altogether lovely
Prob on the slightly overdamped side of neutral, but that's no issue IMHO
In the basis of this 200% positive result, I'm minded that Apogees should benefit from the advantages my Zus have
But I'm more skeptical that in such an expansive space esp re depth, my 70W 211s will have the balls (especially re current delivery) to truly bring those ribbons to life, esp energising the room w bass
The last thing I want is a kind of frequency response alteration in the Duettas where inappropriately driven ribbons sound great at one frequency band, and anaemic in the rest, esp <70Hz

Post some pictures dude. Nobody can picture your room by the way you have described it. Trust me.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Link to come...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Post some pictures dude. Nobody can picture your room by the way you have described it. Trust me.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...hread-You-bet!&p=450827&viewfull=1#post450827

 

[spiritofmusic]

Thank you Mike, v much obliged, I really am useless at all this
Think of the person you know who has the least computer skills ever
Well, I have even less

 

[the sound of Tao]

You do kind of run the risk of painting yourself into a corner with this next speaker choice Marc. I understand your hesitation in moving into uncharted waters with the possible music/room/speaker/amp relationship. You have built a room probably ideal for horns or high efficiency boxes. The kinds of panels that play big in that space unassisted are likely the largest ones and that kind of panel area is not going to scrimp by without serious current and watts to control them... especially if you want it to rock in that room.

Your music choice drives what you expect of everything that follows. If you just liked small scale chamber music and jazz or less driven acoustic and girls with guitars then none of the following determinants would be as critical. But your music choices needs drive and control and bass.

Your room is big and with all that room treatment probably sucks up the sound hungrily before it will feel energised enough to drive all the way from bottom to top for the kinds of music you expect it to play convincingly.

Your choice of Apogees works really well for your music choice but the duettas smaller panels are probably going to need to really really be driven to not sound a bit anaemic when trying to rock in that big space. If you want to stick with the NATs on smaller ribbons in a big room you really should probably consider subs as well and that might take you to your happy place. While I prefer not to try and match box subs with panels it relates to a bit of hypersensitivity to coherence on my part. I can get away without subs as I am only trying to energise a medium sized room using very large full range panels being current driven with many many watts into the panels relatively benign 5 ohm load.

Another thought (as a designer) is rather than doing a fixed option of reducing your room into 2 smaller spaces you could maybe consider putting in some operable panels to be able to close your room size down when you want to fill the room with sound or at other times leave it open. The roof profile makes that a bit more challenging but not impossible.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tao, can I thank you for such a nuanced argument
What one would like to get is not always what one should get and might not be what one actually gets
It was fascinating for me, and I still pinch myself, that I seemed to hit the jackpot on day one firing the whole system up
My NATs/Zus just seemed to meld w the space hand in glove
If the measure of a great sound is a combination of familiarity w a system signature that you love, plus a whole bunch of new positive attributes, ie the thrill of the old and the thrill of the new, then my setup here scores an '11'
Now, my new flr area is similar to my old apartment, and the volume prob a little less, and that space was sufficiently energised as is my current one
The Duettas experience is permanently burnt on my brain, and I remain totally in awe of their prowess
They beat my Zus at all parameters except a couple
One being low risk re full saturation of a big challenging space
And two being a unique involvement in Zu full range tone density/SETs smoothness and creaminess, that if the Duettas couldn't match a positive that I have and I would struggle w'out, this is it
But my main fear is as it has always been
The reasonable likelihood Apogees on SETs could sound distinctly undercooked in this space

 

[sbo6]

After seeing the pics of the room I think most are making a bigger issue of the space vs. speakers. Your seating and speaker positioning are almost ideal and you have the luxury of tweaking forward and back significantly more than most. Low freq room modes would be less of an issue with the room depth + angled ceiling. Net is - most people would kill for a room that large and the flexibility of seating and speaker / equipment placement. Planars with a large dipole radiating surface would almost certainly play well in that space as would most speakers. Treatment would as always make a big difference. And if more oomph is needed, subs can be added later.

 

[KeithR]

well, that makes a bit more sense now - thanks Mike. I don't have time to comb through 10 Apogee threads on this forum

vaulted ceilings are going to require some significant acoustic treatment - you need to focus there first imo.

 

[bonzo75]

well, that makes a bit more sense now - thanks Mike. I don't have time to comb through 10 Apogee threads on this forum

vaulted ceilings are going to require some significant acoustic treatment - you need to focus there first imo.

I already pointed him to how Joel of 6 moons treated his vaulted ceilings with Microsorber that can be available translucent or transparent, and is not expensive either. Joel had loads of slap echo before http://zero-distortion.org/microsorbers-and-pyt-audio-panels/ - all those interested can PM Joel for this

 

[Rodney Gold]

Im not sure what Apogees you are looking at .. but a local here has a set of these for sale

APOGEE ACOUSTICS SCINTILLAS 1OHM

Fully refurbished in the UK by authorized Apogee installer with new ribbons, audiophile grade crossover components & binding posts, new automotive gloss paint. Reluctant sale.neg

He is looking for around $7k the pair .. negotiable....

 

[KeithR]

I already pointed him to how Joel of 6 moons treated his vaulted ceilings with Microsorber that can be available translucent or transparent, and is not expensive either. Joel had loads of slap echo before http://zero-distortion.org/microsorbers-and-pyt-audio-panels/ - all those interested can PM Joel for this

yup- its a first order problem that must be addressed.

 

[microstrip]

I already pointed him to how Joel of 6 moons treated his vaulted ceilings with Microsorber that can be available translucent or transparent, and is not expensive either. Joel had loads of slap echo before http://zero-distortion.org/microsorbers-and-pyt-audio-panels/ - all those interested can PM Joel for this

Curious - I was reading about the microsorber film a few days ago. Can you buy just the film roll in the UK?

 

[bonzo75]

Curious - I was reading about the microsorber film a few days ago. Can you buy just the film roll in the UK?

Joel is in Paris and I think the sorber is from Germany. Suggest PMing him he reads his PMs from this site though might not reply immediately. He also has some details on this forum to my thread

 

[sbo6]

Those microsorbers look beautiful, a friend has them on his ceiling. I can't quantify the improvement since I've only heard his system with them but he claimed they made quite a difference in detail retrieval. Another option is to spot treat with diffusion.

 

[bonzo75]

Those microsorbers look beautiful, a friend has them on his ceiling. I can't quantify the improvement since I've only heard his system with them but he claimed they made quite a difference in detail retrieval. Another option is to spot treat with diffusion.

Joel had loads of slap echo and he reduced that and his RT is 0.3 now. He has a couple of DAADs in the corner, but otherwise he has those PYT audio panels for bass

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm not sure what to say guys
Either I really am tone deaf and non discriminating, but a lump sum thrown at carving out the attic w bog standard acoustic and thermal insulation in the form of Kingspan and Rockwool loaded into every sq inch of eaves, walls and floor, plus GIK set of 242s at first and second reflection pts and bass traps in cnrs, seems to have resulted in a truly neutral and responsive sound
Slap echo apparent but not excessive
Every change in spkr posn and toe in, distance to walls and listening posn, variations in sub bass settings, are all highly audible
I might get things measured, but I'm confident things already vastly superior to last room
Which leaves dilemma over Duettas...

 

[bonzo75]

That's fine then, but careful of absorption behind panel it deadens the sound, diffusion behind better