A question of value in today's hi-end.

[NorthStar]

I do not think that it is fair to characterize anyone who buys a high-end product beyond our own aspirations to be ignorant. In fact, it would be difficult to find rich and ignorant people because if they are ignorant, they would not have the means or wherewithal to be rich - unless they struck the lottery, in which case they won't be rich for long.

From the point of view of a manufacturer - I don't see many high-end manufacturers who are rich from a higher than normal profit margin. I'm in it for the love of the music, and I would be far richer if I hadn't bothered....

Besides the cost of parts and fair labour, you need to add the cost of marketing, and research and development. It's all a continuum - if I paid for higher-tolerance parts, I could cut down on labour to measure and match. If I spent for more marketing, I can't spend as much on research. The higher the volume, the greater economies of scale you can achieve. Unfortunately, with economies of scale, you also have a greater difficulty to maintain a level of execution quality. With lower price, there are also more competitors, and then the sales channels have a different problem. Once you start battling with Sony and Samsung, you're toast!

Besides, just like a Hyundai provides transportation from one point to another as well as a BMW, a pair of speakers from Samsung would deliver as much sound as any high-end brand you would name. Sorry that you don't like the analogy between cars and audio, but as a consumer, I see more similarities than differences. What I would NOT like to see happen, though, is for the world to end up with 9 audio companies.

Hi Gary,

I was not referring to you. But to people that don't have the time to listen and test various components, like the kings and princes that tell their servants to simply buy the most expensive gear.
And I'm sure you are well awared that those people do indeed exist!

For some people that are well off financially, the most expensive gear is synonymus of the best!
And no matter if they listened to it or not! Ignorance doesn't mean negative here, but reality of circumstances...

After reading your post I realized that I should have been more precise as you took it quite personally.

I simply expressed my opinion of the moment regarding analogies with totally different products as of a much too wide variance that should be more concentrated in the same product from different price points, within that same product; as we are not talking about value of cars.
No more no less...

On a Forum you do have to be specific sometimes as we are not talking person to person (face to face) or on the phone. And for that I should have been more precise. Please forgive me of this small but nonetheless substantial detail.

I won't take all the points of your post one by one as I agree with you, and respect your own ideas.

Regards,
Bob

 

[NorthStar]

South America I believe also has a fair market share in Audio, Video, Computers, Electronics of all kind. And high-end audio certainly! ...Brazil big time!

 

[garylkoh]

Hi Gary,

I was not referring to you. But to people that don't have the time to listen and test various components, like the kings and princes that tell their servants to simply buy the most expensive gear.
And I'm sure you are well awared that those people do indeed exist!

For some people that are well off financially, the most expensive gear is synonymus of the best!
And no matter if they listened to it or not! Ignorance doesn't mean negative here, but reality of circumstances...

After reading your post I realized that I should have been more precise as you took it quite personally.

I simply expressed my opinion of the moment regarding analogies with totally different products as of a much too wide variance that should be more concentrated in the same product from different price points, within that same product; as we are not talking about value of cars.
No more no less...

On a Forum you do have to be specific sometimes as we are not talking person to person (face to face) or on the phone. And for that I should have been more precise. Please forgive me of this small but nonetheless substantial detail.

I won't take all the points of your post one by one as I agree with you, and respect your own ideas.

Regards,
Bob

Bob, I didn't think that you were referring to me. Even the rich kings and princes who tell their servants to just buy the most expensive are not ignorant. Their servants will have to do adequate research or it's off with their heads. Most of the richest people I know as also the most value conscious. When they want the "most expensive" there has to be some justification - the Audio Note DAC in the other thread won't be the ONE - it will be FM Acoustics or may Burmester.

Sorry I seemed to be leaping down your throat!

Cheer!

 

[NorthStar]

Ok cool Gary! ...I was thinking about the exact same thing regarding the Audio Note DAC from the other thread ($185,000)!

As for the word "ignorance", it is vast and not written on the ten commandments tablets!
As used in my prior post it meant 'for the owner himself', not having the time to learn for 'himself' about a certain product!
As if you'll ask him about it, he would be only able to tell you what the servant or audio dealer told him!
So his knowledge would be restricted by only what he has been told by others, and his true competance would be from listening based on other's advice, and ultimately from his own set of ears of course!
Ignorance is a bliss!

______________________________

Burmester, EMM Labs, Chord, ...YES!

 

[egidius]

Personally, I think there has been no time in the history of audio save the very beginning where one had to pay so much for ever shrinking performance gains. I can't recall how many times I've set up systems for clients and friends that have made me say to myself in complete honesty what I think some of you might have uttered too. "I could seriously live with this."

Now if only life was so simple. By education, I'm a Business grad with a specialization in Marketing specifically in the areas of Sociographics. In the last four decades one of, if not the biggest trend in consumer behavior is individualization. I have little doubt this was anchored on increases in base pay but is in all probability due to the availability of retail credit. Take athletic shoes. Watch a pick-up game in a park and see just how many players are wearing the same shoes and compare that to the 50's when practically everyone was wearing Chuck Taylors, the 70s with Adidas All-Stars, the 80s with Air-Jordans or your pick of Celtics Green or Lakers Yellow Converse' so on and so forth. It exploded in the 90s and not just in sneakers either. Coincidentally the same time audio equipment's threshold jumped dramatically. The result is a proliferation of products aimed at very narrow target markets. While we are seeing unprecedented scale in overall corporate operations we are not seeing the same economies of scale on a product by product basis. E-commerce in the 21st century bolstered this trend further allowing manufacturers not just of finished products but of parts as well to further target even smaller niches spread out over an almost global area. This "access" also lowered the barrier to entry in many industries, audio included to the point where intellectual property is at its most premium.

No surprise then that even as players multiply, competition is not driving prices down in the way traditional economic models would predict. I know I am over simplifying things and have left a lot of factors out but this is a post not a dissertation Anyhow, the products are out there because the opportunity is out there. Choices are a wonderful thing but apparently it isn't free. The good news is that now more than ever we have so many good products to choose from in terms of base performance. The price paid is that the cutting edge has gotten wildly expensive. Where one chooses to play all things being equal is another story altogether. Gawd. I hope I didn't bore you guys to death.

thanks for these clear ideas, if only we could take heed?!! Egidius

 

[Old Listener]

How are companies like PSB, Paradigm, Rotel and NAD doing?

And right now, the audio market is hugely U-shaped; there are products selling at the budget end and at the super-high-end end, but the in between bit just isn't happening in the way it used to.
...
But at the moment, it seems people like the idea of there being products in the $4,000-$10,000 price range, but don't actually want to know about them. Or buy them.

Alan, I appreciate your bringing a sense of what's actually happening in the audio world to this forum and others.

Brands like PSB and Paradigm are still around and getting good reviews for products at various price levels. Are their products selling in enough quantity to keep them in business and healthy? What about other companies like Rotel and NAD that audiophile snobs might label mid-fi? What does the distribution chain look like for such companies now?

Bill

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Alan, I appreciate your bringing a sense of what's actually happening in the audio world to this forum and others.

Brands like PSB and Paradigm are still around and getting good reviews for products at various price levels. Are their products selling in enough quantity to keep them in business and healthy? What about other companies like Rotel and NAD that audiophile snobs might label mid-fi? What does the distribution chain look like for such companies now?

Bill

Paradigm, NAD and Rotel are realy quite common here in Canada and easily sourced. For some strange reason, despite the fact they are also Canadian, PSB is much more difficult to find. Go figure!

John

PS..I don't mean to imply that Rotel is also Canadian.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Originally Posted by Alan Sircom

And right now, the audio market is hugely U-shaped; there are products selling at the budget end and at the super-high-end end, but the in between bit just isn't happening in the way it used to.
...
But at the moment, it seems people like the idea of there being products in the $4,000-$10,000 price range, but don't actually want to know about them. Or buy them.

Alan, I appreciate your bringing a sense of what's actually happening in the audio world to this forum and others.

Brands like PSB and Paradigm are still around and getting good reviews for products at various price levels. Are their products selling in enough quantity to keep them in business and healthy? What about other companies like Rotel and NAD that audiophile snobs might label mid-fi? What does the distribution chain look like for such companies now?

Bill

Sorry but that U-shaped curve is nothing new and has been around for as long as I've been in high-end audio. Take Magnepan for example. Fifteen or twenty years ago, Wendell Diller told me they didn't come out say with a souped up MGIII or another speaker in the $6000-8000 range because transducers in in that price category don't sell well. That's why back then they had the MGIII and MG20s with quite a hole in between. And Magnepan is pretty savvy; you don't stay in business for as long as they have and become the elders of the industry without having some marketing know how!

And another manufacturer whose name escape me once said that someone who's going to pay 7-8K for a product doesn't think twice about going to 10K or so.

 

[microstrip]

I have been reading this thread with great interest, and also trying to figure out what other thing is underlying concerns about audio prices. I don't think too many care if they can not afford top end and perhaps rediculous priced stuff.....however.....are a great many of us wondering if we will be able to afford "reasonable state of the art" if manufacturers keep jacking up their prices. Is the quality we have come to expect at resaonable price points simply not going to be offered any more? Do some feel they will be priced out of the new audio gear market...perhaps.

I can begin to feel this vibe myself.

Tom

Tom,
Do you think that manufacturers are deliberating lowering the quality of their mid price products, keeping the state of the art for the higher prices range? Just to be sure we are addressing the same class of products, what should we consider "reasonable price points"?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

IMO one should be able to have a complete, satisfying system for $15K.

For "complete and satisfying" in a normal domestic living space (say 20 x 30), I'd say $15k is pretty high. To paraphrase a quote used here recently, "that's a pretty good $15K system if you haven't heard a really good $5K system." What $5k system? Many systems in the $5 - $10k range skirt the edge of SOTA but there will be some compromises - you'll lose that bit of bottom end that a very small portion of most of our music libraries utilizes, and you won't have really pretty speakers. But it can be done....

Netbook w/500gig drive ($500)>Benchmark DAC1/Hdr ($1900)>Event Opals ($3000 - just an example, there are many substitutes here, though to get the Opal's range most will push the price up or push you into subs).

...OK, I'm $500 over budget. Is this system What's best? Probably not; it's not very effective below 35Hz, but it could make you wonder if that's where your 50 grand went and re-evaluate how important that is to you.

Tim

 

[Randall Smith]

Tim, I am not too familiar with active designs. What are the new and most up to date options in the 5k to 10k range?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

There isn't much that is both active and consumer-styled, unfortunately, but Germany's Adam, Sweden's Dynaudio, and England's AVi all make domestic actives. I use AVi's ADM 9.1s (now 9T's). With a sub they would come in just under $5k for the bottom of your range. SOTA? Not quite, but hard to beat in a passive system at four times the price. At the top, Adam's Tensor Deltas, with their ribbon tweeter and mid will give you incredible extension, air and transparency on top and they'll go all the way down to 32K without a sub. They're about $8k. Add a $2k DAC/Pre and there's the top of your range. If you have a dedicated listening room that can tolerate the industrial look of monitors, lots of options open up in that range, less, and much more.

Tim

 

[Old Listener]

Randall,

Vincent has examples of active speakers on his site:

http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/ActiveSpeakers.htm

A couple of examples of pro-audio monitors I did not see there

Dynaudio BM5a Mk II and BM6a Mk II

Focal CM65 and Solo/Twin lines.

Either brand would look just fine in my home office or even in my main listening room. I would not rule out pro-audio monitors until you explore a bit.

Here is an online store wherew you can browse brands

http://www.sweetwater.com/c405--Active_Monitors

bill

 

[NorthStar]

Tom,
Do you think that manufacturers are deliberating lowering the quality of their mid price products, keeping the state of the art for the higher prices range? Just to be sure we are addressing the same class of products, what should we consider "reasonable price points"?

What a reasonable average person makes in a reasonable year's average! ....Divided by twelve! ...Or twenty-four! ...Or fifty-two!

Seriously though, High-End Value comes in ALL prices! Money is totally irrelative! It's all in your MIND!

 

[microstrip]

(...)

A couple of examples of pro-audio monitors I did not see there

Dynaudio BM5a Mk II and BM6a Mk II

(...)

Either brand would look just fine in my home office or even in my main listening room. I would not rule out pro-audio monitors until you explore a bit. (...)

It is a preference matter, but Dynaudio has different opinion on this subject (similar to F.Toole and many others) :

"Once Dynaudio firmly established itself as a world-leader in high-end loudspeakers, first contacts were made with the professional studio industry. (...)
This new Dynaudio range was essential to fully meet the needs of the professional market, as the specific requirements for recording studios differ substantially from those of home audio systems. Both applications cannot be perfectly served with identical products, despite the fact that both maintain the same basic yet demanding requirement of achieving absolutely perfect sound reproduction. In the studio, all the attention is on the artist. "

 

[mep]

It is a preference matter, but Dynaudio has different opinion on this subject (similar to F.Toole and many others) :

"Once Dynaudio firmly established itself as a world-leader in high-end loudspeakers, first contacts were made with the professional studio industry. (...)
This new Dynaudio range was essential to fully meet the needs of the professional market, as the specific requirements for recording studios differ substantially from those of home audio systems. Both applications cannot be perfectly served with identical products, despite the fact that both maintain the same basic yet demanding requirement of achieving absolutely perfect sound reproduction. In the studio, all the attention is on the artist. "

Tim must be getting his hip boots on so he can wade in on this one.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim must be getting his hip boots on so he can wade in on this one.

No boots necessary, just read this part:

Both applications cannot be perfectly served with identical products, despite the fact that both maintain the same basic yet demanding requirement of achieving absolutely perfect sound reproduction.

Then ask yourself which one is true. It can't be both. Either the goal is the best possible reproduction of the recording within the design/budget parameters, or it is not. It's really that simple. Now, there are some monitors out there with a pretty forward upper midrange that are, tragically in my opinion, attempting to reveal more "detail" by deliberately altering the reproduction of the recording. What reveals the above statement as the utter marketing-department BS that it is, is the fact that Dynaudio is definitely not one of the companies that does that. If anything, Dynaudios are on the warm, "euphonic" side. Very easy to listen to, not at all pushy. I often recommend them as a first listen to pro monitors for audiophiles who are used to things a bit more...ahem...uhh...words fail...for those who think a wood stick slamming down on a crash cymbal should not be too intrusive.

Of course, as micro said, it all comes down to preference in the end. If you prefer to alter the recording to taste by your choice of components, speakers are definitely the place to do it. They are the weak link. They cannot be transparent. Given their inherent compromise, they seem the logical place to pick your poison. DACs and amps with a "sound?" Madness in my view. YMMV.

Tim

 

[c1ferrari]

There isn't much that is both active and consumer-styled, unfortunately, but Germany's Adam, Sweden's Dynaudio, and England's AVi all make domestic actives. I use AVi's ADM 9.1s (now 9T's). With a sub they would come in just under $5k for the bottom of your range. SOTA? Not quite, but hard to beat in a passive system at four times the price. At the top, Adam's Tensor Deltas, with their ribbon tweeter and mid will give you incredible extension, air and transparency on top and they'll go all the way down to 32K without a sub. They're about $8k. Add a $2k DAC/Pre and there's the top of your range. If you have a dedicated listening room that can tolerate the industrial look of monitors, lots of options open up in that range, less, and much more.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Have you had an opportunity to spend any quality time with active ATC's? I was very impressed with the active ATC Pro that was playing back analog tape.

Thanks!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hi Tim,

Have you had an opportunity to spend any quality time with active ATC's? I was very impressed with the active ATC Pro that was playing back analog tape.

Thanks!

I have not. I've read a lot about them, would love to hear them.

Tim

 

[Old Listener]

It is a preference matter, but Dynaudio has different opinion on this subject (similar to F.Toole and many others) :

"Once Dynaudio firmly established itself as a world-leader in high-end loudspeakers, first contacts were made with the professional studio industry. (...)
This new Dynaudio range was essential to fully meet the needs of the professional market, as the specific requirements for recording studios differ substantially from those of home audio systems. Both applications cannot be perfectly served with identical products, despite the fact that both maintain the same basic yet demanding requirement of achieving absolutely perfect sound reproduction. In the studio, all the attention is on the artist. "

Sounds like something written by the marketing people. Some obvious differences: powered pro monitors vs. passive high-end speakers, utility appearance vs. "looks like fine furniture", cost effective distribution vs. high markup distribution through low volume dealers.

A powered near field pro-audio style monitor makes as much sense for me in a home office application as it would in a studio. High-end audio is just waking up to the needs of such applications.


Sound on Sound compared pro monitors and consumer oriented speakers a few years ago and did not find found no systematic difference between categories.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jun02/articles/monitors.asp

"So, in terms of frequency response measurement, there's no obvious split between 'pro' and 'hi-fi' among these four speakers. In fact, if anything, they fall into two rather different groups, with the B&W and Dynaudio offering a balance appropriate for nearfield use in small rooms (coincidentally, the Dynaudio and B&W have low-frequency response shapes so similar they could almost be a pair), while the Wharfedale and KRK offer something more suited to listening at a greater distance in larger rooms. The B&W is also the best in terms of resonant behaviour".

Bill