A Room Problem

[Audire]

(Part I of III)

Hello,

Please excuse me if I placed this at the incorrect location on the forum. My apologies in advance if I did this.

I have a major Room problem(s). We’re moving into a new home in app. two months. The good news is it comes with a new (wife-approved) sound system – necessary furnishing shall we say.

The system will be two channels, but it will be used occasionally for TV as well (since we watch so little, we could care less about 3.1, 5.1, etc.). I’m dealing with two different dealers (see below), but need some impartial advice (advice that isn’t coming with a price tag attached to it, but rather is more concerned about the listener’s end result). So, I’m hoping some of you can possibly help.

The Room(s):

Our Great Room - where the audio system and TV will go - is part of on larger space including a Dining Room, Gathering [Cafe] Room, and Kitchen. This is NOT optimum for audio. And I don’t think suggesting we dedicate the entire space to an audio room “only” will work. For some reason, my wife thinks we still need a kitchen?

Great Room: It is located in one corner of the overall space. This specific space measures: 14’-6” x 18’-10”. It has patio sliders on the RIGHT side (155” x 84”). All the windows in the home are impact glass (nice to have in FL).

Dining Room: It is located immediately BEHIND the Great Room (no walls separating the spaces) and measures: 12’-5” x 11’-4”.

Gathering [Cafe] Room: It is located off to the immediate LEFT of the Great Room (no walls separating the spaces) and measures: 11’-0” x 11’-11”.

Kitchen: It is located immediately BEHIND the Gathering Room (no walls separating the spaces) and measures: 12’5” x (app) 10’-0”.

As you can easily tell this is NOT an optimal space. I’ve been using a dedicated space for a listening space for years, and now in downsizing for retirement I’m faced something quite different. Something I don’t know how to tackle.

Problem:

So how do I best deal with the Room? While we will have a Hunter Douglas sliding shade over the Patio Slider,

*** no other Room Treatments are allowed ***

So, in matter of speaking, I’ve been given a Ferrari but no gasoline. The floors throughout the home are tile, but there will be area rugs in both the Great Room and Gathering Room.

While I know that only my ears ultimately matter in choosing the right system, I hoping for your suggestions on which “possible” speakers and components may have the best opportunity to at least partially tame the space the best. I know the system itself can’t fix the issues, but choosing the wrong one could make it worse. So, …

Part II to follow ...

 

[Audire]

Part II of III

System (?):

The maximum budget is 20-23k, including equip, setup, delivery, tax, etc. I enjoy listening to mostly jazz and soft rock (occasionally some hard rock – but it’s rare) – Krall, Miles, Carpenters, Diamond, Taylor, Beatles, Dylan, etc.

Preferred Speakers: Martin Logan ESL 9s or 11s. These may be accompanied by one or two ML 1600 subs …

Components: Integrated Amp, SACD, and Streamer. No phono.

Dealer Suggestions:

Just so you know, I’m “only” dealing with my two local dealers. While I have nothing against internet dealers (great people), I desire to support local ones, as if we don’t sooner or later they’re gone. So, I’m not shopping on the internet, or out of town dealers, etc. Also, I’m handicapped, so I need someone local to set it up.

The first dealer has suggested that I purchase an Arcam AVR 850 with Digital Room Correction. I’ve heard this in two showrooms with ML and it sounds “ok.” The Digital Room Correction may help, but Arcam isn’t the only kid on the block with Room Correction abilities. And this is a two-channel system and not home theater … And Digital Room Correction in two-channel just seems wrong …

 

[Audire]

Part III of III

The second dealer has suggested the Arcam isn’t powerful enough to “properly” drive the Martine Logans. I tend to agree. He is suggesting a McIntosh 200w integrated amp, Mc SACD, and Mc Streamer. It sounds absolutely amazing - “in a properly treated room,” which I won’t have. But I’m going back for another listen on Sat.

Other choices I have:

Speakers: Instead of the Martin Logans I may “possibly” be able to get a set of Revel F228Be, or a used - but great condition - set of SF Olympia IIIs, or a used but in great shape (owner passed away shortly after taking delivery this year) B&W 803 D3s in gloss black. However, I previously owned a set of B&W 802s and was never satisfied. But that was years ago and B&W has evolved a lot since then ... All this said, I really like the Martin Logan “in a properly treated room,” which I won’t have! And more importantly the boss likes them too.

Components: Instead of McIntosh and Arcam, I can choose from Anthem, Bel Canto (within reason), Classe, NAD, Parasound, and Rotel. Depending upon the size of the components, I may be able to go with separates or just stick with integrated. However, from my limited choices, other than possibly Bell Canto, Macintosh is difficult to beat “to my ears” – if it’s the right amp for the room?

The cabinet all this must fit in (with an Apple TV and Mac-mini) is 82” W x 23” D x 33” H. My wife’s Tommy Bahama entertainment center will be cut out in part for air flow …

I hope this makes some sense. I’ll attempt to post a picture of the Room, which I know will help greatly. Thanks in advance for your time, comments, and suggestions. Thanks again.

 

[Hipper]

Without using any room treatment, and probably not ideal positioning, there seem to be only two options regarding getting bass right - using carefully placed subs (perhaps four of them) and/or DSP/EQ. However it may be that the open room may reduce the problems. Wiser council may follow!

Also without room treatment, you will, using the layout shown in your drawing, have problems of imbalance of the image. The left speaker has no reflections and the right speaker does. Now this may not be such an issue with electrostatic speakers as they are said to have a narrow beam of direct sound (actually the Martin Logan's have a curved screen to widen that beam!). So beam width is a factor you need to consider unless you are willing to have a panel by the window to prevent reflections - this could be used for listening and stored when not needed.

Electrostats are also dipoles, meaning they send out a signal both front and back. The back signal will reflect of the front wall. Some say that's good, others consider it a problem but you will again get more reflections from the right corner.

Another factor that might be worth considering is whether to go for a surround type system - 5.1 or similar - with a suitable processor/upmixer, in order to get a nice enveloping image. I don't know much about this and it may only be mostly suitable for good classical recordings, less for studio bound pop.

That's my thoughts so far.

 

[Audire]

Hipper,

Many thanks. Your reply is very helpful. The ESL9s have a smaller curved panel than do the ESL11s do. So, this will give me another question to ask the dealer about. I'm thinking of adding up to two ML 1600s subs to the ESL9s (which are passive). I''m not sure I can get away with four of them. The ESL11s have active subs, so two additional ones there may help there too. This is very helpful thinking thru it like this. .

I didn't really desire to go with a multi-channel system, but with what you brought up it may make it a necessity. Again many, many thanks.

 

[Brucemck2]

DSP properly implemented works great, and even more so in less than ideal settings. Whether it’s a few parametric filters in Roon, or Dirac in a processor, you’re likely to get substantial improvements.

 

[Audire]

Brucemck2,

Thanks for your reply. It gives me some hope that this will work out.

 

[Audire]

My dealer discussed room treatments yesterday that even my wife was agreeable too. So, a major problem is now solved. He had many samples from Guilford of Maine in his showroom. I think the Eucalyptus color fabric in specific areas will win the day.

After hearing the following systems yesterday at least I've narrowed down my choices:

McIntosh C52 Preamp
McIntosh MC302
McIntosh MEN202 - Room Correction
Blue Node 2i

Speakers:
Martin Logan Impressions (11A) or Sonus Fabre Olympus III

The speaker choice is a difficult one. While both were exceptional to my ears I'm leaning towards Martin Logan. However, I'll have to go back and listen some more.

Thanks again for all the assistance.

 

[spiritofmusic]

One suggestion I would make would involve placing side reinforcement in the guise of a bookcase or record shelves to the side of the L spkr which is currently in free space. Gotta be worth a punt.

 

[Audire]

spiritofmusic,

Many thanks and that is an excellent idea. There is a small wall to the left where something would fit. Later on I plan on purchasing a SACD player and need a place to store all my SACDs, etc. So, we’ll see if we can locate something ... Again many thanks.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, at least you can say to yr wife it isn't an acoustic treatment, while knowing deep down it is (oh, the deceit Lol).

In my old room, somewhat bigger than yours at 27x22, w listening area lounge to one half of that 27 width, the other half comprising dining/kitchen and sleeping zones, I struggled w deep bass/low end articulation MIA and hazy imaging.

A lot of this was down to the room construction (high and boxy at 27x22x13, large swathes of glass on front wall behind spkrs, total expanse of concrete ceiling and hardwood/concrete floor, and concrete columns.

And also critically my R spkr being 3' from one side wall, my L spkr in free space (12' from other side wall).

Just before I sold that apartment, I put up a bookcase 3' to side of L spkr, and whilst not every problem was solved, it went a long way to getting a more linear sound esp in the bass.

As did additional damping in terms of heavy drapes, big full rug in front of spkrs.

 

[Audire]

spiritofmusic,

That must have been a difficult situation to tackle. I've always had a dedicated listening room in the past. Put in the panels and such - issue resolved - so simple. This time though it is rather different. The major problem I have left is the patio door - impact type. It will have a Hunter Douglas Honeycomb type slider on it. So, that will help somewhat. Thanks again.

 

[steve59]

I would have expected the room to be hard sounding so would naturally consider the SF first as ML's really put out a lot of hi fq information.

 

[Audire]

steve59,

Thanks for this info. Great point! Much appreciated. In the showroom, the ML 11As did sound a little better. However, that was in a fully treated room. But, the SF Olympia IIIs did sound really good as well. And as you said, I have to consider the room - and with those patio doors (and all the furniture, etc.) it will be hard sounding. So, thanks. I'm going back to listen to both sets of speaker again later this week... Hopefully make a decision in app. 2 weeks or so ...

 

[jturbo]

I would try using convolution filters in roon and try filters by Home Audio Fidelity.

 

[Audire]

jturbo,

Many thanks. As far as digital room correction, I'll be trying a McIntosh MEN202 first as it's easily integrated with the other McIntosh gear .... However, if this fails to give us the results we desire, I'll try Home Audio Fidelity. This is the first I've heard of them so I'll go to their website and do some reading. Many thanks.

 

[Audire]

Well another opportunity has presented itself. My decision right now is between:

System 1: Pass Labs INT 250 (or a Luxman 509x) + Magico A3s + Aurender N100H

System 2: McIntosh C52 Preamp + MC302 Amp + MEN220 Room Cor + Blue Node 2i
Speakers would be: SF Olympia III or Martin Logan 11As or B&W 803 D3s. (but I'll probably drop the Blue Node and get the Aurender though ...).

Pass Labs and Magico make a good pairing. But the Pass Labs run very hot ... But I've heard Pass before with Avalon Times and it was great. I've never heard a Luxman before, though I have read that they are nice too.

I get to audition System 2 again this weekend and System 1 the weekend after that.

What are your thoughts on these possibilities?