A small upgrade in speakers... The CLXArt a true masterpiece!

sefischer1

Active Member
Aug 10, 2018
94
36
25
Southern California
#41
The CLX will go lower than 70hz but it is dependent on distance from front wall and floor bounce and ability of amplifier to provide voltage into those high bass panel impedance

Although I too have used subwoofers it does destroy some of the effects of having a dipole

On my CLX you can adjust the bass panels, do yours have that and if so is it set correctly if your bass only goes to 70 hz
Mine have no adjustments other than on the Descent i sub-woofer. How are yours adjustable? The CLX will go lower, but those lower frequencies are definitely rolling off.
 

awsmone

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2014
1,401
249
285
Canberra Australia
#42
Mine have no adjustments other than on the Descent i sub-woofer. How are yours adjustable? The CLX will go lower, but those lower frequencies are definitely rolling off.
on mine there is a switch next to the cross over

i will try and take some photos

part of the issue is there is a peak at 70hz which is often close to a room mode and i have measured enormous troughs and dips between 30 an 100 hz your sub may be filling in those dips....
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
754
68
373
Melbourne
#43
CLX's going down only to around 70hz...say what?!

Something terribly wrong there mate, this needs to be checked.

Some notable Dynamic driver designs I've owned in the past: Paradigm Studio 80, B&W Matrix 801, Infinity Renaissance 90 & IRS Beta, and last Wilson's (very short while).

Panel type speakers previously owned: Quad ESL63, ESL2905, Maggie's MGIIIa, MG3.3/r, MG3.5/r, MG3.6 & MG20 series, Apogee Diva, Martin Logan SL3, & CLS, Ethos... and now CLX Art.

Any and all of the above speakers "on specs" go down way lower in the bass compared to the CLX's. Especially with the Infinity's, and MG20, the bass was much lower BUT I can tell you all one thing and one thing only- the level and quality of bass I'm achieving from my CLX's driven with CJ amplification is by far the best I've ever owned to date!

Forget the specs, they're only numbers & guidelines, actual listening and positioning is what matters most, not some printed sheet stating what the speakers should sound like.

When I say "best" I will describe it as follows:
1. The most articulate
2. The most transparent
3. The highest definition and level of resolution in bass.
4. The speed and accuracy of acceleration and decay.
5. Most of all the musicality.

These 5 traits of the bass are profound in the CLX's and NONE of those speakers I've previously owned can match these points full on compared to the CLX's. How would I know simply because I've owned them, and not listened at some hi-fi show or at a demo, or on you tube for crying out loud! These speaker systems were in our living room both in Colombo and in Melbourne, spanning a time frame from 1986 to date.

The only two systems I/we did enjoy the most were the MG20's and Apogee Diva's. The rest were highly coloured speakers, and ones that altered the sound drastically due to cabinet resonances. And due to this common resonance that most are used to, they proudly proclaim that CLX's or certain other types of panels don't have bass...

In the real world where you would find someone playing a particular instrument, the sound leaves that instrument unhindered, uncolored and most of all untouched! It is created by blowing air into it, and reaches the inner workings of the instrument and then leaves the instrument in its purest form. This is exactly what the CLX's do!
I really don't know how or why any natural instrument when played can alter the sound, unless it was amplified, signal stored and played back through some massive speaker system, then this sound has been altered I'm affraid.

Apart from the dynamic driver types I've mentioned, all the panel types certainly did not have the bass capabilities of the CLX's in terms of those 5 points. Only the MG20 had lower bass but definitely not the speed of the CLX's nor did the Apogee's.

That lighting fast bass of the CLX's are like no other, and with CJ amplification the full spectrum is delivered in its purest form possible. I certainly cannot think of adding any sub woofer system whatsoever just to recreate that cabinet resonance affect, hell no! That's just ruining the bass, and it is not musical, rather a thump! Might as well sit in a night club and enjoy the constant boom- boom - doof- doof. This is definitely not what I'm after.

Anyway, just to close, if any of you currently own CLX's or other panel types and are using subs with them, then so be it, I truly hope you're enjoying your "music" in the most natural form possible. For those who don't own CLX's, please don't label them as "lack of bass or weak bass" because they were never designed to reproduce thumping bass. That's not their goal, rather it's the musicality factor that was the main focus.

Just on a final note, if the MG3.5/r specs state bass reaches down to 35hz and on the Quad ESL 2905 specs, bass is rated at 32hz usable to 28hz, sadly none of these two panel types can reproduce the bass of the CLX's. I would think the specs on the CLX's are incorrect in that case... Who knows and who cares! By actual listening anyone can certainly tell the bass is far superior compared to those two panel speakers and I've also owned and lived with them! Same amplification by CJ no major difference, if at all more SOTA being the premier 8 monoblocks and the ART preamp. Should have had far more bass with that combination...

I would gladly invite anyone to audition the CLX Art system and judge for yourself what if anything is lacking in bass.

Cheers and have a good one, RJ
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
754
68
373
Melbourne
#44
Hee haw! The big dog in da howzzzz!

Finally, finally, finally - from my initial post in 2018 around Sept when I acquired these dream stats, hearing them the first time, driven with Dan D's Momentums in Spore stopped the train! Then later on about two years after, listened again very closely at Mr. K's place, with his full Leben & Pass Labs line up, in a well arranged room perfectly laid out, I was fully convinced that these are the reference stats that I will end up with, no doubt!

After about a year..., so a total of three years of hard labour... I got these full range stats driven with my fully upgraded CJ amplification line up.

However, the biggest downside to all that awesomeness was the bloody room! No matter what upgrades I did on the pre-power, plus AC mains upgrades, mods on the Class A voltage rails, plus class A voltage regulators, made incremental changes but still the full potential was yet to be unleashed!

From our humble shoebox... Now to a place well built and equipped with the latest upgrades in AC mains regulators, plus dedicated 10 amp lines for the monoblocks, ladies & gentlemen, Audiophiles, music enthusiasts and regular shoppers, here it is!

Simply superb!!!!!
Every minute detail, level of control in transients and power and finesse delivered in true CJ tube power amplification at its finest! The depth, speed, realism, and sheer transparency is just breathtaking! I have no further words to describe this particular sound, just pure music I guess.

From this experience all I can possibly say and advice fellow Audiophiles is the ROOM!

Oh my goodness golly gracious, what a superb level of pristine quality, especially in the soundstage. Along with ample bass, and when I say bass, I mean whiplash bass, not just lumpy thuds or kabooms... This is something truly to be experienced personally, afterwhich you will understand what I mean by system-to-room interaction.

It is of paramount importance to provide ample space for those larger systems, otherwise you're just kidding yourself, there's no denying it. No matter what you tweak or try, if you haven't got the room and extra space for large speakers, please don't buy large speakers!
High grade reference monitors will provide a far more accurate representation of recorded music in smaller rooms. I also believe that those software gadgets, such as digital room correction and EQ software..., will certainly help to a certain extent but unless you've got the right room, there's no point in really trying to correct anything!

Well here it is Maties, cheers to all, absolutely loving it, nothing I've ever owned has come this close.
Now it's definitely time to pour out the scotch and light that cigar... Cheers, RJ
 

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Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
8,209
2,635
730
Beverly Hills, CA
#45
That is fantastic, RJ! Your room and set/up look absolutely beautiful!

I am very happy for you! A big congratulations!!!

How well does that sound absorber on the carpet behave? Is it more of a bass trap or a high frequency absorber?
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
754
68
373
Melbourne
#46
G'day Ron and to fellow Audiophile members;
Something I wanted to share and admit to being guilty of over the years... Which could have saved me thousands of dollars!

After arriving here in 2004 and having to start from scratch, starting with Maggies, Quads, SF's Wilson's and onto ML's... Inbetween those systems there was far excessive expenditure on gadgets and gizmos that I thought would work based on sincere dealer recommendations... The fact of the matter is not a single person addressed the "room" factor. Rather all sorts of snakeoil was poured in nearly every direction.

As the decade went by, I think the turning point was with the Quads. They have a very special kind of dispersion pattern that only Quads can do, and other full range stats, only when placed optimally, will recreate a remarkable soundstage. Whereas Quads can deliver this soundstage depth regardless...

After several disasters with them, numerous panel failures and transformers failing to the point of a full overhaul and selling them off to a well deserved person, I really missed that soundstage depth.

Over the next 3 years I got the CLX's but they couldn't perform well in that particular room, simply because of the limited space. I was not prepared to purchase CLX's until our new house was completed but I had to close much sooner thanks to a special trade-in deal with a trusted customer. And so the journey began... Tweaking here and there, upgrading nearly every component internally on each pre-power and phonostages, wiring, cabling, interconnects etc., even the AC mains.

At the end of the day, now after discovering the system's full potential, which is truly amazing, I realised a few awful items that most Audiophiles commit to including myself.

1. Wall to wall carpeting - definitely not a good idea. It kills the natural mids & highs and will blur or fuzz out the bass. Lacking definition and speed.
2. Heavy sofas or other sound absorbent materials, where people have overdone it with heavy drapery, carpets, furnishings and excessive acoustic panelling. Again not required.
3. The key is to have an overall balance of items neatly spread out. Moderate acoustic panels that are critically placed to absorb unwanted frequencies will help greatly! But remember not to overdo it!
4. I've seen far too many top tier systems placed all wrong with far too much padding, the room is basically dead! There's no life or soul and as a result the speakers will feel this, as if like a sensor and will react to it.
5. Get to know your speakers well, listen to others systems with similar gear as much as possible and learn from their placements / position options. Understand the room concept and try to see if your room can do justice in providing the absolute best towards the system. If it doesn't, then it's time to change the speakers and adjust the budget accordingly not go out and spend fortunes more on excessive gear, it doesn't help!

Back in Colombo with the mighty Apogee Diva's I had more than plenty of space. Plus the lounge would open up onto a very large garden through French windows... This allowed for the speakers fully open up and breathe naturally without excessive amounts of absorbent materials. Unfortunately I did not have this kind of space when I came over here. However, after nearly 15 years, I certainly do now! And it is just marvellous!

Don't be too tempted to buy the biggest and greatest gear, knowing that your room is not up to par. Having a conscious that not to worry about it too much and in the given room it will somehow work... Is basically kidding yourself.
Something much smaller will be far more sensible and will be superior in sound. Once the space has been obtained, then by all means evaluate what you've got and see if there's a justification in going for larger systems.

The most significant aspect with full range panels is that they are boxless no enclosure. Hence, the room becomes the enclosure.
With dynamic driver types, the back wall is actually the rear cabinet, hence the drivers are so close to it. Whereas with panels, the rear wall is the rear wall! And the drivers are either 5-6ft away suspended in air.

This type of distance and wave pattern will interact with the room heavily regardless of what sort of room correction software you plan to use. Once these parameters are addressed in a larger space to cater to the speaker's requirements, that end result will surpass every past tweak you have ever tried... and it certainly did for me!

This is something to consider for those who have lofty systems in limited spaces... The system deserves much more than you expect, and when given the extra space and well laid out items, the overall presentation is like no other!
A complete different form to what you were once used to, I would say.

Anyway, thought I'd share this bit of info, it could have saved me heaps of hard earned dollars, which I could have put to very good use on other priorities. All the best to all, and enjoy your music.
Cheers, RJ
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
754
68
373
Melbourne
#47
That is fantastic, RJ! Your room and set/up look absolutely beautiful!

I am very happy for you! A big congratulations!!!

How well does that sound absorber on the carpet behave? Is it more of a bass trap or a high frequency absorber?
G'day Ron,

Are you referring to the QX4 unit that's placed on the floor/carpet dead centre of the system?
Well that's the QRT Quantum Resonant Technology based systems from Nordost.
That silver box has to be placed in the middle in or to work its magic of better still isolated in the middle of the system rack. It has very powerful QRT units inside, a total of 4 QRT units and it works vertically, controlling any stray magnetic fields, RMI, RFI, and just cleans up the direct AC mains coming out of the main AC outlets. I have then plugged the QX4 directly into the QBase 8 power board. These two items work together and create a special synergy between the full system that's really something to experience when you get it right. Again I've visited many places where they installed the QX4 all wrong.

There is no special acoustic panelling anywhere, simply because I don't require it. Several "light" carpets have been used in strategic places. One main carpet for under the main rack. Two smaller carpets under each monoblocks. Two separate carpets under each of the CLX's, which have been fully spiked in. And one heavy carpet well away from the system, positioned in the centre of the listening area. That's about it!

Plenty of space behind my listening area, about 10ft or so, and plenty of space on the sides, more on the right side about another 10-15 ft away. So a very well defined space allowing the CLX's to open up freely unhindered and just do their thing!

The other night I was listening to an LP of Patricia Barber, Companion. There are certain bass lines and very LFs that I had not heard before ever! Now, thanks to this extra space and careful placement, every minute detail on the recording is captured.

The soundstage depth is truly remarkable, the CLX's just disappear in thin air, leaving behind a full 3D performance. You can virtually reach out and shake their hands!
This type of engaging sound I hadn't experienced in a long time... It took me nearly 15 years to get this far, and I'm extremely pleased. Might as well just sit back and enjoy the music!

Cheers mate, RJ
 
Likes: Alrainbow

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
754
68
373
Melbourne
#48
Just started pulling out these CDs by Max Jazz String series, which I discovered through Genesis Advanced Technologies on their website, quite a few years ago.

I wonder whatever happened to the Max Jazz label. The main recording engineer at the time was David Baker and Katsu Naito. On this particular album by Russell Malone, the recording and mastering engineer is Katso N. It's a superb recording and reproduced beautifully. I pulled out all the Russell Malone albums and being listening since 9pm... now it's nearly 3:30am.

Cheers to Max Jazz!
RJ
 

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Alrainbow

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Dec 12, 2013
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NYC , USA
#49
Im glad you’re enjoying your CLX RJ , good stuff ..!
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
754
68
373
Melbourne
#50
Yes, actually I would say more than enjoying the CLX's, I'm enjoying the music! That's all what's it about.

I'm not quite too sure what it is but after around the 2nd hour leading into the 3rd hour of listening, things really opened up all of a sudden. Maybe only now the Nordost Frey2 speaker cables are starting to settle in properly and the power cords taking shape/ form, I don't know. Maybe my ears were cleared of wax build up after a workout and a yawn... or the voltage in the grid went up a notch. whatever it was, it was a remarkable level of detail to such a point where I had to turn down levels by at least 3 notches of 0.7dB on the preamp.

I also noticed more variations in quality recordings. On certain labels on Max Jazz, the whole presentation was fantastic, extended silky highs, very palpable midrange and the bass lines are very noticeable, easy to follow and you feel every line, the way the musicians intended it to be or should I say the way it was meant to be recorded.

However, on certain recordings apart from the highs, mids and upper bass being outstanding, the LF seemed a bit muddled at times. So, I'm wondering if I should slowly start to upgrade the Sacd player. I'm well aware of the fact that the McIntosh SACD player is not upto par with the rest of the gear, especially CJ amplification. However, this is the problem; way back in 2010 when I was finalising on a sacd player I must have tried at least 10-12 different brands and types. From DACs to separates, to hybrids using tubes in the output stage, such as Cary Audio and Cayin, also tried out ARC CD players. Amongst a host of others, it was this particular Mac sacd player that really stood out, in a particular price range. Of course the ARC digital playback systems were far superior but at three times the price, and only two ARC Ref series CD players were an actual improvement by my personal bench mark. It has to be at least 40% and over, otherwise it's a waste of dollars. Ok, I will accept maybe 35% but nothing less. I know this is a very high margin of performance to meet but I feel that small improvements in sound, which are incremental are only incremental, therefore I can't justify the extra spend.

So, now I'm thinking about makes from YBA, MSB, PS Audio, T+A and so on. I would any day, if I get the chance, zero in on the T×A digital playback systems, they are absolutely amazing and very extraordinary performance from top to bottom. Their design is flawless and the discrete parts they use are truly top notch. Every DAC chip has its dedicated line output, separate power supplies and discrete circuits, even dual power cords. Built on very high standards, the HV series is the one that I've grown accustomed to over the last year or so, when I heard it on several occasions at my good mates place, who also has CLX's driven with a Pass Labs amplifier.

I'm still looking out for that special CD player that remains less coloured and more faithful towards the original recording. Of course it's going to be a hard find on a low budget but I've yet to come across something that can easily surpass the Mac at under 10grand. Used the Weiss Dac for a while with a separate transport, although things improved by a small margin, it certainly wasn't in the range of 40%, more towards 10-15% if at all.

Anyway, from the last time another enthusiastic audiophile visited to listen to the gear, told me straight up, not to change a thing! It's mighty fine just as is... so maybe I'll take his advice.

Any thoughts or suggestions, much appreciated.
Until then, enjoy the music!
RJ
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2013
1,854
518
370
NYC , USA
#51
Get a lampi DAC with your CDP budget (anyone ) and use the mac as transport ..


Big improvement there ...!
 

Rhapsody

VIP/Donor
Jan 16, 2013
1,373
1,507
665
NYC
#52
Yes, actually I would say more than enjoying the CLX's, I'm enjoying the music! That's all what's it about.

I'm not quite too sure what it is but after around the 2nd hour leading into the 3rd hour of listening, things really opened up all of a sudden. Maybe only now the Nordost Frey2 speaker cables are starting to settle in properly and the power cords taking shape/ form, I don't know. Maybe my ears were cleared of wax build up after a workout and a yawn... or the voltage in the grid went up a notch. whatever it was, it was a remarkable level of detail to such a point where I had to turn down levels by at least 3 notches of 0.7dB on the preamp.

I also noticed more variations in quality recordings. On certain labels on Max Jazz, the whole presentation was fantastic, extended silky highs, very palpable midrange and the bass lines are very noticeable, easy to follow and you feel every line, the way the musicians intended it to be or should I say the way it was meant to be recorded.

However, on certain recordings apart from the highs, mids and upper bass being outstanding, the LF seemed a bit muddled at times. So, I'm wondering if I should slowly start to upgrade the Sacd player. I'm well aware of the fact that the McIntosh SACD player is not upto par with the rest of the gear, especially CJ amplification. However, this is the problem; way back in 2010 when I was finalising on a sacd player I must have tried at least 10-12 different brands and types. From DACs to separates, to hybrids using tubes in the output stage, such as Cary Audio and Cayin, also tried out ARC CD players. Amongst a host of others, it was this particular Mac sacd player that really stood out, in a particular price range. Of course the ARC digital playback systems were far superior but at three times the price, and only two ARC Ref series CD players were an actual improvement by my personal bench mark. It has to be at least 40% and over, otherwise it's a waste of dollars. Ok, I will accept maybe 35% but nothing less. I know this is a very high margin of performance to meet but I feel that small improvements in sound, which are incremental are only incremental, therefore I can't justify the extra spend.

So, now I'm thinking about makes from YBA, MSB, PS Audio, T+A and so on. I would any day, if I get the chance, zero in on the T×A digital playback systems, they are absolutely amazing and very extraordinary performance from top to bottom. Their design is flawless and the discrete parts they use are truly top notch. Every DAC chip has its dedicated line output, separate power supplies and discrete circuits, even dual power cords. Built on very high standards, the HV series is the one that I've grown accustomed to over the last year or so, when I heard it on several occasions at my good mates place, who also has CLX's driven with a Pass Labs amplifier.

I'm still looking out for that special CD player that remains less coloured and more faithful towards the original recording. Of course it's going to be a hard find on a low budget but I've yet to come across something that can easily surpass the Mac at under 10grand. Used the Weiss Dac for a while with a separate transport, although things improved by a small margin, it certainly wasn't in the range of 40%, more towards 10-15% if at all.

Anyway, from the last time another enthusiastic audiophile visited to listen to the gear, told me straight up, not to change a thing! It's mighty fine just as is... so maybe I'll take his advice.

Any thoughts or suggestions, much appreciated.
Until then, enjoy the music!
RJ
Any pics of the Alsyvox/D'Agastinos that you referred to over in the other thread? Would love to see it:)

Beautiful CLX system!!!
 
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Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
754
68
373
Melbourne
#53
Ok, now since Fri & Sat leading upto 12hrs of listening to digital on the big Mac, I can tell that the Frey2 are really opening up now. This Sun, whiles I'm listening now, having switched over to vinyl after about 3hrs on sacd, I see that it's the recordings not so much the Mac at all. Therefore, I'm going to step back a bit and take things really slow. Once our curfew is off and we've eased from stage 3&4 lockdown, probably leading upto 2021 by the looks of things... I'll start out to trial at least 5 CD players that I've short listed. Then expand this list towards another 2-3 units to add on and see how they perform up against what's already in the system. I'm not going on the reviews in Tas or SP, simply because those reviewers have only reviewed a single product in a particular system. Not anything related to my system nor a similar room to begin with so I can only follow their comments as guidelines or as an idea of what I may expect, that's about it.

If I do believe that the new item can deliver that 40% and above in performance, only then I will close on the deal, otherwise it's off. I'll just sit back and enjoy what I've got.

Based on the above post, regarding the Alsyvox, CLX's, ML Statements and the Infinity's, these systems were auditioned overseas in Spore. Every year around early Feb I try to visit if I get a chance because that's the same month as the good wife's b'day... so it's a special trip planned for her, plus a little audition for me ha! The owner is now well past his prime hearing abilities, nearing 82 but still has the love passion for the highend and most of all the music. I've stated this before in my other posts that pics are not allowed whatsoever. Lucky to even get a demo/audition unless you happen to know the family. So I'll leave it at that.
Earlier in March last year he also took delivery of the new MG 30.7's but after the Alsyvox arrived a year later the 30.7's were passed onto a close dealer, so they are now the official Magnepan representative/ distributor for the 30.7's.

Speaking of the 30.7's, over here in Melbourne, my good mate the G-man still has his! At one point he was thinking of selling them off since they were not delivering their full potential, mainly due to the mighty triple stacked horns he has behind the maggies, which tend to take up a lot of space. These things are huge! Like two godzilla's standing in the room. The first time I heard the 30.7's were driven by the Relentless monoblocks, and it was superb! However, now with the Alsyvox obviously it's a slightly different flavour. Having said that, the other system which comprises of the CLX's driven by CJ's ART300's with the Momentum preamp, still remains my all time favourite.
I'm about half way there...

Anyway, back to John Scofield now on LP.
Cheers maties, enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
754
68
373
Melbourne
#54
G'day LL21, Lloyd this message/ reply is coming your way, and to those who are curious about the Alsyvox.
Speaking of Alsyvox, we now have a very highend dealer who specialises in some very fancy priced gear, including the top of the line Cessaro horns that go for around 1.9mil large ones! That's correct, not 1.9grand but a cool 1.9mil. This includes the bass horns and the full system, not too sure though if this system has arrived in Melbourne, there are only pics on their website. When lockdown is over, I will plan a visit to check out the Alsyvox and see what kind of amplification they are using. I know it's nothing to do with any brand like Dan D's designs or CJ's for that matter, the brands and products they carry are totally different. Anyway, the store is called Audio Nirvana, we'll see how it goes...

Now getting back to Lloyd's question, on comparison between the IRSV's, Statements Evo-II's, Alsyvox and CLX's, generally I don't like to compare, rather enjoy and learn to appreciate what each of these systems can offer in terms of absolute music reproduction.

Just a quick note on Alsyvox coming from my good mate, according to him, these were designed with very powerful magnets, enabling those owners who still treasured their low powered SET amplifiers that couldn't drive large panels until now. These are probably the most powerful and most expensive magnets on earth! Neodymium and the other materials used are truly top notch. Nothing compromised whatsoever, which leads to their stratosphere price, especially here in Aus. The entry level Tintorento (however you spell it) starts at 125grand! The 6 panel top of the line Michael Angelo goes for around 600grand, so the Botichelli (however you spell it) goes for around 295-300+grand somewhere thereabouts depending on custom finish. Anyway, these prices are far less compared in Spore but shipping and handling will be a challenge, plus warranty and service won't be transferable, so I wouldn't even think of it.

I have posted my initial thoughts about all three of these systems before, so I won't dwell on it too much rather I'll summarise at best:
The Infinity's and the Statements are very large systems, everything is large. Big sound, huge soundstage, big scale big everything... more suited towards very large rooms, having ample space for some serious dynamics and blistering powerful bass that hits the stage effect in an instant. As if the rock concert live band is playing right in front of you. The last time I experienced this sort of simialr thunderous presentation was from the AG Trio Omega system.

The IRSV's have been developed over a period of time with a few legendary people and experts having developed and finalised its design. It still can hold itself mighty high up against the mighty ones, no doubt! However, there are other systems that can equal that type of performance and huge presentation, such as the Genesis speakers, the Pendragon system, Wilson's and even the maggies 30.7's. Speaking of Wilson's, I guess this is where Hedge was referring to as having two subs to provide the added depth and presence, which the IRSV's, Statements and now the Neoliths offer very easily, no sweat! No added subs required on these systems. Yes, the IRSV's can go pretty low, then agsin so can the Statements as well as the Neoliths un-aided by subs. Plus the 30.7's are well capable as well. Infact, I actually do prefer the ribbon bass and its speed, superb! That's where amplifiers such as the Momentums or Relentless come into great effect, it's just marvellous!

Now the IRSV's and Statements are no more, so we have other systems on offer, as I mentioned the big Genesis Dragons, the Pendragon etc, and of course the Neoliths. I guess you can refer to the Neoliths as ML's latest offering as a statement product, it's a massive panel and has sheer mass and size, plus up close to one is mighty special, pics don't capture the real feel...

Getting back to comparisons, in terms of sheer weight, added tone density and scale, these bigger systems offer exactly that. However, in terms of fine inner detail, resolution, transparency, speed and most of all a fabulous realistic soundstage, where the speakers simply disappear in an instant, I just prefer panels. For that matter, in the good old days, looking at such systems and hearing them for the first time, I used to lust over them... always thinking how to save and make more just to own these mighty ones for once. But now, I don't do that, rather whenever I do get a chance to audition one of these greats, I simply enjoy what they offer and appreciate the design in every way possible, the time and effort those designers put together with their design teams in order to achieve some of these highly specialised systems, it's just a marvel to experience them.

After having to restart from scratch since arriving here in 2004, and putting together what I've got now, which was a lot of sweat, tears and finances... I just enjoy every chance I get to listen. So I don't think I'll ever want to compare anything again, rather learn from such great systems, compare notes on proper setup, room, wiring layout, positioning and the basics... then evaluate those parameters and criteria and check if I've also addressed these things. Only then can I make a sound judgement on what I'm hearing, and if it's worth spending towards another system...

I've not heard the Alsyvox top of the line multi-panel MA system as yet, I don't know of anyone in that region who's taken ownership as yet but for now it's only the Botichelli series. Speaking of which, what I've heard lately is that my good mate has now installed the Botichelli X system, which is the separate crossover units. This is meant to take the overall performance even further into another dimension, and with the ART300's I can certainly imagine so!

This will be on my next agenda most probably in Feb next year if travel opens up... but I have my doubts it would be that soon. No viable vaccine in sight as yet...

Cheers Lloyd, hope that helps.
Best ,RJ
 
Likes: Ron Resnick

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
754
68
373
Melbourne
#55
Just listening to this beautiful recording by Kurt Elling on LP Blue Note, superb! I could just reach out and shake his hand, probably even offer him a Guiness! Marvellous performance.
The last time I saw him he was all bald and wore glasses... how time flies at Chicago's Greenmill.

Anyway, cheers to Kurt E and Blue Note!
At it's finest! Big woof!!
RJ
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
11,676
565
658
#57
G'day LL21, Lloyd this message/ reply is coming your way, and to those who are curious about the Alsyvox.
Speaking of Alsyvox, we now have a very highend dealer who specialises in some very fancy priced gear, including the top of the line Cessaro horns that go for around 1.9mil large ones! That's correct, not 1.9grand but a cool 1.9mil. This includes the bass horns and the full system, not too sure though if this system has arrived in Melbourne, there are only pics on their website. When lockdown is over, I will plan a visit to check out the Alsyvox and see what kind of amplification they are using. I know it's nothing to do with any brand like Dan D's designs or CJ's for that matter, the brands and products they carry are totally different. Anyway, the store is called Audio Nirvana, we'll see how it goes...

Now getting back to Lloyd's question, on comparison between the IRSV's, Statements Evo-II's, Alsyvox and CLX's, generally I don't like to compare, rather enjoy and learn to appreciate what each of these systems can offer in terms of absolute music reproduction.

Just a quick note on Alsyvox coming from my good mate, according to him, these were designed with very powerful magnets, enabling those owners who still treasured their low powered SET amplifiers that couldn't drive large panels until now. These are probably the most powerful and most expensive magnets on earth! Neodymium and the other materials used are truly top notch. Nothing compromised whatsoever, which leads to their stratosphere price, especially here in Aus. The entry level Tintorento (however you spell it) starts at 125grand! The 6 panel top of the line Michael Angelo goes for around 600grand, so the Botichelli (however you spell it) goes for around 295-300+grand somewhere thereabouts depending on custom finish. Anyway, these prices are far less compared in Spore but shipping and handling will be a challenge, plus warranty and service won't be transferable, so I wouldn't even think of it.

I have posted my initial thoughts about all three of these systems before, so I won't dwell on it too much rather I'll summarise at best:
The Infinity's and the Statements are very large systems, everything is large. Big sound, huge soundstage, big scale big everything... more suited towards very large rooms, having ample space for some serious dynamics and blistering powerful bass that hits the stage effect in an instant. As if the rock concert live band is playing right in front of you. The last time I experienced this sort of simialr thunderous presentation was from the AG Trio Omega system.

The IRSV's have been developed over a period of time with a few legendary people and experts having developed and finalised its design. It still can hold itself mighty high up against the mighty ones, no doubt! However, there are other systems that can equal that type of performance and huge presentation, such as the Genesis speakers, the Pendragon system, Wilson's and even the maggies 30.7's. Speaking of Wilson's, I guess this is where Hedge was referring to as having two subs to provide the added depth and presence, which the IRSV's, Statements and now the Neoliths offer very easily, no sweat! No added subs required on these systems. Yes, the IRSV's can go pretty low, then agsin so can the Statements as well as the Neoliths un-aided by subs. Plus the 30.7's are well capable as well. Infact, I actually do prefer the ribbon bass and its speed, superb! That's where amplifiers such as the Momentums or Relentless come into great effect, it's just marvellous!

Now the IRSV's and Statements are no more, so we have other systems on offer, as I mentioned the big Genesis Dragons, the Pendragon etc, and of course the Neoliths. I guess you can refer to the Neoliths as ML's latest offering as a statement product, it's a massive panel and has sheer mass and size, plus up close to one is mighty special, pics don't capture the real feel...

Getting back to comparisons, in terms of sheer weight, added tone density and scale, these bigger systems offer exactly that. However, in terms of fine inner detail, resolution, transparency, speed and most of all a fabulous realistic soundstage, where the speakers simply disappear in an instant, I just prefer panels. For that matter, in the good old days, looking at such systems and hearing them for the first time, I used to lust over them... always thinking how to save and make more just to own these mighty ones for once. But now, I don't do that, rather whenever I do get a chance to audition one of these greats, I simply enjoy what they offer and appreciate the design in every way possible, the time and effort those designers put together with their design teams in order to achieve some of these highly specialised systems, it's just a marvel to experience them.

After having to restart from scratch since arriving here in 2004, and putting together what I've got now, which was a lot of sweat, tears and finances... I just enjoy every chance I get to listen. So I don't think I'll ever want to compare anything again, rather learn from such great systems, compare notes on proper setup, room, wiring layout, positioning and the basics... then evaluate those parameters and criteria and check if I've also addressed these things. Only then can I make a sound judgement on what I'm hearing, and if it's worth spending towards another system...

I've not heard the Alsyvox top of the line multi-panel MA system as yet, I don't know of anyone in that region who's taken ownership as yet but for now it's only the Botichelli series. Speaking of which, what I've heard lately is that my good mate has now installed the Botichelli X system, which is the separate crossover units. This is meant to take the overall performance even further into another dimension, and with the ART300's I can certainly imagine so!

This will be on my next agenda most probably in Feb next year if travel opens up... but I have my doubts it would be that soon. No viable vaccine in sight as yet...

Cheers Lloyd, hope that helps.
Best ,RJ
Thank you! Very interesting. Will be evaluating major subs at some point soon and will definitely keep your comments in mind.
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
754
68
373
Melbourne
#58
Hey Lloyd,
I was just thinking, since you're currently using Wilson's as well and you're looking at subs, why not just get the matching Thor's?

On what others had installed with their CLX's, many are using the matching subs by ML itself, called the BF series Balanced Force subs. I tried these out along with the REL. Even opened up the top covers on the enclosure of the CLX's and made adjustments on the bass switches, which tends to or is supposed to match / blend well with the BF series subs... but I didn't like any of it!
It took me awhile to get those covers off, and it's very tricky, you've got to be 110% sober! I'm generally not on my off days... hec!

Anyway, I can see though where owners would prefer this, in terms of added weight, LF power with a more forceful bass... however it wasn't for me. I just simply prefer the CLX's triple stators agility and speed on the bass. No sub can quite match it.

I've heard what the Thor's can do, and when partnered with a Wilson system it's got the heft, no doubt! Let us know your thoughts on these subs, you've probably already auditioned the Thor's I'm guessing...

Have a good one, cheers mate
RJ
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
11,676
565
658
#59
Hey Lloyd,
I was just thinking, since you're currently using Wilson's as well and you're looking at subs, why not just get the matching Thor's?

On what others had installed with their CLX's, many are using the matching subs by ML itself, called the BF series Balanced Force subs. I tried these out along with the REL. Even opened up the top covers on the enclosure of the CLX's and made adjustments on the bass switches, which tends to or is supposed to match / blend well with the BF series subs... but I didn't like any of it!
It took me awhile to get those covers off, and it's very tricky, you've got to be 110% sober! I'm generally not on my off days... hec!

Anyway, I can see though where owners would prefer this, in terms of added weight, LF power with a more forceful bass... however it wasn't for me. I just simply prefer the CLX's triple stators agility and speed on the bass. No sub can quite match it.

I've heard what the Thor's can do, and when partnered with a Wilson system it's got the heft, no doubt! Let us know your thoughts on these subs, you've probably already auditioned the Thor's I'm guessing...

Have a good one, cheers mate
RJ
Thank you. That is certainly one option and its hard to argue that they are not a great option. At the same time, having spoken with a few people who understand speaker design, super-deep bass and what it requires...there are clearly other options as well (REL 6-pack), plus Seaton Subs who stack 18" cones which is pretty awesome, dual Funk Audio 18.2s which have 2 back to back firing 18" cones in a single cube about the same size as the Velodyne.
The concept being play them low, keep distortion low, crossover very, very carefully and let their effortless but massive displacement help re-create the venue space even at low volumes overall.

I recognize the quality of the Thors and the fact that they are designed by Wilson which matters. The question is once you go below 35hz, what matters more:
- the closeness of design of having "all Wilson" making a 'perfect match'
- or the ability of the subwoofer designs to generate more absolute scale both in actual air movement and also sense of realism...while also providing very flexible adjustments to enable the sub to 'match' the Wilsons very, very closely.

I could certainly see validity for both options. I think for me, the second option might be the better one, but only time will tell.
 
Last edited:

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
754
68
373
Melbourne
#60
Greetings from lockdown Melbourne, we're still in curfew here, although my workplace has been flat out.

Got one day off before a heavy 6-day week starting tomorrow, so before my usual night session I did some serious deep vacuuming on the panels. Collected a good size furball, about the size of a golf ball. Perhaps slightly smaller... damn cats!

Gotta luv them, anyway looks like a fair amount of fluff from their silver and ginger coats have accumulated onto the stats panels. Unlike Quads and other ESL's where they use dust covers, the ML's don't! Totally cover free, hence total see through effect resulting in greater transparency and furballs...

Well, I guess the panels need to be vacuumed more often.
The thing is during power on, the stats are active attracting anything and everything floating in thin air... however the good thing is when a signal is not applied and the stats are in idle, they shut off. This prevents dust and fluff from sticking on, so sort of acts as a protective element.

Apart from the ginger fella, the silver one likes to rub his fabulous tail across the sides of the panels whenever he strolls past them... why he does this I have no idea.
When not in use they're always covered though, and all the extra fluff collects onto the covers. Now, when that's vacuumed that's about the size of a golf ball.

For those who have pets and a few running around with fabulous tails, was wondering how you manage the fluff issues...
Would be good to know. Cheers and enjoy those fine tunes,
RJ
 

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