Aesthetix Io versus Io + Callisto

[Ron Resnick]

Please reply if you have direct experience comparing the Aesthetix Io with volume controls to an Io + Callisto combination.

If one has only one phono source and does not need the multiple inputs of the Callisto, is there any sonic advantage in running the Io into the Callisto so that some of the gain comes from the Io and some of the gain comes from the Callisto, rather than relying on the Io alone to generate all of the gain?

What are the sonic pros and cons (meaning please ignore the size of six boxes, ignore heat output, ignore cost) of using the Io as a phono stage with enough gain to function as a line stage as well, versus using the Io as a phono stage and adding the Callisto to provide the additional gain as a separate line stage?

Why would there be any sonic or dynamics or transparency or other advantage accruing from splitting up the gain between two boxes, with the attendant additional connectors, switches and cables?

 

[JackD201]

Easy enough to compare if the Callisto has a bypass function

One thing I will say however is that given my shock over the improvements from the upgrade of my bone stock Calypso to Calypso Eclipse, I would do the Eclipse version. It is just better in every single area. The increase in refined resolution carries across the whole spectrum. I will be having the Eclipse upgrade done to my Atlas Sig Stereo too.

Note: No I do not have any association with Aesthetix. I bought my Calypso originally for its bypass functionality to be used in my HT. Sometime after, a client traded in his Atlas. Now these two with an Aurender W20, a TD DAC and Endeavor Speakers are what keep me company in my bedroom while all the new stuff comes in at a trickle. Funny how I can only really afford my own products for one room LOL This Saturn series pre and power combo offers really great value.

 

[jfrech]

Ron, you might reach out to Albert Porter. Years ago he owned both. And he had upgraded to Eclipse versions. I do not know if he tired the Io direct...

I am curious what you find out on your OP.

I do know he had custom made Purist Audio Designs umbilicals cords which were a nice improvement (from power supplies to pre)

 

[bonzo75]

The Kong at one time was running over a 100 valves with his Full range including the IO Eclipse.

I think audio.bill had a friend with the whole Aesthetix stack starting with the Eclipse. You might want to check with them Ron

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Gentlemen. Albert posted on Audiogon years ago that he is not sure of the technical reasons why but that he is certain the combination is more dynamic than the Io alone.

 

[audio.bill]

The Kong at one time was running over a 100 valves with his Full range including the IO Eclipse.

I think audio.bill had a friend with the whole Aesthetix stack starting with the Eclipse. You might want to check with them Ron

I actually have two friends who each have the Aesthetix Io and Callisto with multiple power supply combos, but they are the older pre-Eclipse versions (maybe I need wealthier and single friends! ) I don't see either of them ever willing to give them up as they are truly magical in their presentation with an emphasis on image size, weight, and natural decay. One of them has the Io with stepped volume controls and initially tried it directly to his power amps, but once he inserted the Callisto there was no comparison so that he ended up buying both. Of course I imagine that result may be system and amplifier dependent but the Io on its own in his setup paled in comparison to running the Callisto in tandem. Hope this helps!

 

[JackD201]

I actually have two friends who each have the Aesthetix Io and Callisto with multiple power supply combos, but they are the older pre-Eclipse versions (maybe I need wealthier and single friends! ) I don't see either of them ever willing to give them up as they are truly magical in their presentation with an emphasis on image size, weight, and natural decay. One of them has the Io with stepped volume controls and initially tried it directly to his power amps, but once he inserted the Callisto there was no comparison so that he ended up buying both. Of course I imagine that result may be system and amplifier dependent but the Io on its own in his setup paled in comparison to running the Callisto in tandem. Hope this helps!

Very interesting! You are right and I never thought about it!

Amps with 2v input sensitivity or higher are not very friendly with typical 1v phono outs. You'd need at least a 1v input sensitivity amp to get close to output potential. It's as much a voltage as it is a gain game. Thanks!

Ron, check those VTLs

 

[Ron Resnick]

1.7 volts. So the VTLs should be happier with the Callisto in the middle!


VTL MB-750:

Description: Vacuum-tube monoblock amplifier with class-AB-1, tetrode/triode-switchable, push-pull output stage.

Rated output power: 20Hz-20kHz, <3% THD, 750W (26.7dBW) tetrode, 350W (23.4 dBW) triode.

Small-signal frequency response: 20Hz-20kHz ±0.05dB. S/N ratio at 120Hz, 750W tetrode/350W triode: >95dB.

Input sensitivity for full output power: 1.7V.

Voltage gain: 31.3dB tetrode, 27.8dB triode.

Input impedance: 130k ohms single-ended, 274k ohms balanced.

Output impedance: approximately 1.5 ohms.

Power consumption: 440W at idle, 1300W at full power. Tube complement per side: twelve 6550C, two 6350, one 12AT7.

Dimensions: 19" (483mm) W by 21" (533mm) H by 10" (254mm) D. Net weight/shipping weight, per amp: 130 lbs/140 lbs (59kg/64kg).

 

[audio.bill]

I just checked with my buddy and he said that the major difference in running with the Callisto was in dynamics, which were significantly compromised when running from the Io to amp direct.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you Bill. This answer is coming up unanimous.

 

[microstrip]

1.7 volts. So the VTLs should be happier with the Callisto in the middle!
(...)

The 1.7V specification is for full power. Assuming you will never drive it over 300W it is equivalent to around 1.1V for practical use. Considering your speakers are reasonably sensitive what matters mostly is amplifier gain, not the full power sensitivity.

 

[Kcin]

I'm going to disagree that adding the Callisto is good choice. I've had the Io Signature with Volume Controls and 2 power supplies for years. The overall dynamics is part of the cartridge-Io-amp-speaker-room interface. That is , overall, what it takes your room to get "excited". Make no mistake the Io alone can swing a mean sine wave. What you loose by inserting another gain stage is just too great IMO vs. what you would possibly gain in dynamics.

I would rather solve for dynamics with other pieces of the chain and not loose the delicacy of going straight in to the Io as long as I had the proper cartridge with the proper output, impedance match to the amp, amp sensitivity, speaker sensitivity and room .

YMMV will vary and all that. At this level if you are ordering an Io Eclipse then borrow the Callisto or get Jim White to chime in. IMO less is more- but it does take some care.
Good Luck!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Kcin, your thinking was exactly the thinking I have held for the last 18 years. But there is a strong consensus that adding the Callisto increases dynamics. Jim White confirmed this.

Whether adding the Callisto takes away from other desirable attributes is a separate, and very important question.

 

[JackD201]

The 1.7V specification is for full power. Assuming you will never drive it over 300W it is equivalent to around 1.1V for practical use. Considering your speakers are reasonably sensitive what matters mostly is amplifier gain, not the full power sensitivity.

Having had a blast listening with Ron, I'd say we both love our headroom

With my M1s I rarely go past 200 watts, that is until I play modern Jazz where seeing peaks over 1kw show up when I'm feeling irresponsible LOL.

 

[gian60]

Hi Jack
With my M1 I always listen few watts because my speaker are 98/99 db
But few times I saw in M 1 display until
1213 watt of peak
Incredible l,amp and spekear did like nothing

 

[Kcin]

Kcin, your thinking was exactly the thinking I have held for the last 18 years. But there is a strong consensus that adding the Callisto increases dynamics. Jim White confirmed this.

Whether adding the Callisto takes away from other desirable attributes is a separate, and very important question.

Hi Ron,

On this one I highly recommend you listen to each combination for yourself in your own environment over time and don't get swayed by "louder" make sure you are level matched.

I have tried this and have come out on the other side. Other than Albert Porter, I did not see anyone who had actually had actually tried this combination- I have. If you are ordering an Eclipse you should be able to borrow a Callisto for a week or more. Everyone's sonic priorities are different. I try to maximize resolution where I can. Remember , the industry also likes to sell boxes so you need to evaluate for yourself.

For example, I run direct drive to my Beveridge electrostatics from the plates of the direct drive output tubes, no output matching transformer on the amp, then the Beveridge accepts the audio and +/- 2000 volt polarizing voltages directly ---no step up transformer in the speaker like most all other electrostatics and in my case a simple first order gentle sloping crossover with only one exceptionally high quality small value cap.

It's an approach I take for purity. You can avoid dynamics concerns- my system will startle you with dynamic contrasts- by careful matching of other components. While I agree some systems may benefit from an additional gain stage overall, there is always a price to pay. The price paid serves the current state of technology that is designed to appeal to most people and inefficient complex current robbing crossovers. I take care of the bottom end with modern high performance sub woofers which have improved greatly over time and I can integrate them better now than I could using this approach 20 years ago.

Another corollary would be the use of step up transformers for low level phono vs. active gain stages. There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach my sonic priorities lean toward a proper low noise active gain stage and not the well documented inefficiencies of transformers --- that's why I chose the Io in the first place!

I just mention this for your consideration. I have come to this conclusion for my version of the illusion over the last 35 years. YMMV .

Cheers.

 

[KeithR]

This isn't any different from running a dac with analog volume controls directly to an amp. And 90% of the time, a preamp improves that as well.

 

[jfrech]

This isn't any different from running a dac with analog volume controls directly to an amp. And 90% of the time, a preamp improves that as well.

In the case of the Aesthetix Io Eclipse, I think Ron is wondering is this the 10% of the time that's better without a pre...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Yes, gentlemen, thank you. TheKong has also tried the various combinations and agrees the Callisto adds dynamics.

So I think it is established that the Callisto adds dynamics, but does it cost anything in transparency, delicacy, etc.? That is the question. Thank you, Kcin for answering it based on your experience and sonic values!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Ron,

On this one I highly recommend you listen to each combination for yourself in your own environment over time and don't get swayed by "louder" make sure you are level matched.

I have tried this and have come out on the other side. Other than Albert Porter, I did not see anyone who had actually had actually tried this combination- I have. If you are ordering an Eclipse you should be able to borrow a Callisto for a week or more. Everyone's sonic priorities are different. I try to maximize resolution where I can. Remember , the industry also likes to sell boxes so you need to evaluate for yourself.

For example, I run direct drive to my Beveridge electrostatics from the plates of the direct drive output tubes, no output matching transformer on the amp, then the Beveridge accepts the audio and +/- 2000 volt polarizing voltages directly ---no step up transformer in the speaker like most all other electrostatics and in my case a simple first order gentle sloping crossover with only one exceptionally high quality small value cap.

It's an approach I take for purity. You can avoid dynamics concerns- my system will startle you with dynamic contrasts- by careful matching of other components. While I agree some systems may benefit from an additional gain stage overall, there is always a price to pay. The price paid serves the current state of technology that is designed to appeal to most people and inefficient complex current robbing crossovers. I take care of the bottom end with modern high performance sub woofers which have improved greatly over time and I can integrate them better now than I could using this approach 20 years ago.

Another corollary would be the use of step up transformers for low level phono vs. active gain stages. There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach my sonic priorities lean toward a proper low noise active gain stage and not the well documented inefficiencies of transformers --- that's why I chose the Io in the first place!

I just mention this for your consideration. I have come to this conclusion for my version of the illusion over the last 35 years. YMMV .

Cheers.

Dear Kcin,

Just out of curiosity, did you try any other line stages with the Io? (I am wondering how a Jadis line stage would compare to the Callisto.)