Air Force 1 Premium - New Flagship

Lagonda

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Ok, based on these posts I thought you were an avid between the lines reader




Only when he wants to ! ;)
 
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PeterA

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Francisco, shall we ask PeterA what he thinks about terms like "blackness"? Lol

Marc, I would first want to know how you define the term “blackness” and then whether or not you think you hear that attribute when listening to live music. From there, after establishing a mutual understanding, we might have an interesting discussion. And if you want to laugh out loud during that discussion, that is fine with me.

I have heard the air force one turntable twice In the same system. The second time we did a comparison between it and another turntable. I think the design brief included “digital like silence” as a goal. I did hear an absence of ambient information around the musicians. This may be a result of dampening, I am not really sure. Some people like that effect. Once identified and recognized it is very easy to hear.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Peter, that was a bit of humour that I thought you'd appreciate, after umpteen pages on your system thread upholding "natural", decrying our usual audiophile terms, and striving for a new lexicon.

Seriously, if you're wanting to entertain using "blackness" in our lexicon, maybe you're not showing the courage of your own convictions.
 

Lagonda

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Peter, that was a bit of humour that I thought you'd appreciate, after umpteen pages on your system thread upholding "natural", decrying our usual audiophile terms, and striving for a new lexicon.

Seriously, if you're wanting to entertain using "blackness" in our lexicon, maybe you're not showing the courage of your own convictions.
Is “blackness “ even a accepted word in the American vocabulary these day ? It’s so hard to keep up from abroad ! :rolleyes:
 

spiritofmusic

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I don't think the Woke are brave enough to endure the psychological terror of threads on WBF, so we shouldn't worry.
 
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PeterA

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Peter, that was a bit of humour that I thought you'd appreciate, after umpteen pages on your system thread upholding "natural", decrying our usual audiophile terms, and striving for a new lexicon.

Seriously, if you're wanting to entertain using "blackness" in our lexicon, maybe you're not showing the courage of your own convictions.

Marc if you re-read my post you’ll notice that I did not use that term in my description of the sound of the air force one turntable. I wrote that I heard an absence of ambient information. Sometimes I miss the humor when you are laughing out loud.

You asked the question of Francisco and since he owns the turntable, he might be able to share with us his impression of this quality. From your many posts about alterations to your turntable, it seems as though you are after something similar.

This is a thread about the Tech DAS turntable and presumably how people think it sounds. It is not about audiophile language.
 

spiritofmusic

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Peter, yes I have the highest regard for my own SOH...often I'm the only one laughing...Lol others, please.
I actually agree 100% w you regarding the limiting nature of so much lexicon, and the attributes many chase in their sound.
For me, the last week has been the biggest revelation in 23 years in this hobby, bar none.
Concepts like "blackness", "pinpoint imaging" etc as as far from my mind as you can imagine.
 

microstrip

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Ok, based on these posts I thought you were an avid between the lines reader





My comment was clear and explicit - I was addressing formal quality reviews, not forums or the audio gossip. Surely some other sources are treated differently. ;)

Anyway thanks bringing to the surface some of my old posts, it is always nice to think someone cares about what we write!
 
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Lagonda

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Peter, yes I have the highest regard for my own SOH...often I'm the only one laughing...Lol others, please.
I actually agree 100% w you regarding the limiting nature of so much lexicon, and the attributes many chase in their sound.
For me, the last week has been the biggest revelation in 23 years in this hobby, bar none.
Concepts like "blackness", "pinpoint imaging" etc as as far from my mind as you can imagine.
You do make us laugh a lot Marc, regretfully not always with you ;)
 

microstrip

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(...) I have heard the air force one turntable twice In the same system. The second time we did a comparison between it and another turntable. I think the design brief included “digital like silence” as a goal. I did hear an absence of ambient information around the musicians. This may be a result of dampening, I am not really sure. Some people like that effect. Once identified and recognized it is very easy to hear. (...)

Peter,

The only turntable I owned that rivaled the master tape silence of the AF1P was the SME30. Do you also feel that the SME30 causes an "absence of ambient information around the musicians"?
Some day I would like to have your opinion on the sound of master tapes played in a top R2R machine.
 

spiritofmusic

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You do make us laugh a lot Marc, regretfully not always with you ;)
If you're not with me, you're against me. What's it gonna be, Milan?
 

PeterA

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Peter,

The only turntable I owned that rivaled the master tape silence of the AF1P was the SME30. Do you also feel that the SME30 causes an "absence of ambient information around the musicians"?
Some day I would like to have your opinion on the sound of master tapes played in a top R2R machine.

Francisco, that is very hard to say. I’ve only heard one turntable I prefer to my own but that was in a different setting so I cannot be sure of the cause.

I have not directly compared my turntable to other turntables in my system or elsewhere. I do think the SMEV 12 is more damped than the 3012 R and one consequence is a reduction of ambient information. But there are other very nice sonic qualities that it brings to the sound. They sound different and I understand why people have a preference for one over the other. I imagine the same as with SME turntables And I understand why you think there are similarities between the SME turntable and AF1 and tapes.

I’ve heard tapes on three different R2R machines. I don’t know if they are considered top or not and I don’t really even remember the brand names. I preferred the vinyl in the same system every time.

I have yet to hear reel to reel tape sound as convincing or believable or natural as top vinyl but I remain open minded.

From your response I gather you do not associate the stillness or quietness or calmness of your turntable with an absence of ambient information
 

Lagonda

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If you're not with me, you're against me. What's it gonna be, Milan?
I am definitely with you Marc, right there giggling at most of the things you say and do ! ;)
 

spiritofmusic

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I congratulate you on the right choice.
 

TLi

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Thanks. I use an extra surge tank and long pipe, as agreed with TechDAS, that improved the performance of the AF1P. I can easily accept that a static air tank is the optimum air source. How long are your pipes?
While not a person with engineering background, the aerodynamic of airflow in Air Force turntable is beyond my knowledge. What I understand is, the function of reservoir tank and piping is to cancel the air impulse produced by the pumps. Maximum canceling occurs with a correct natural frequency of the tank/pipe system which corresponds to the pump frequency. It is not just a big volume of air in a tank and certainly not bigger tank gives better sound.

Consider the tank/pipe system as a wind musical instrument, it produces a sound if blown at a correct frequency. I find increasing the volume of the tank and pipe will give a softer and more mellow sound. Bass is less tight. Reduce the volume gives an opposite result, the sound is faster and tighter. It is an very interesting phenomenon. The best sound that suits the user taste can be tuned by varying this volume.

After trying different volumes, I ended up with the original factory settings and agree with Nishikawa san that it is the best compromise. It is not far off. User can certainly change the volume to alter the sound to better suit his preference. Changing the pipes and air bottles are completely reversible and will not damage the turntable. I suggest every Air Force user to at least try with his turntable. It is like setting your tonearm and cartridge, you can have your own say.
 
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JackD201

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AF turntables are not meant to cater to the people who highly value introduced harmonic colorations. Sure these colorations become integrated in the brain as things such as warmth or for Peter "ambient information" around instruments. For most this is what they have come to love about vinyl playback. It isn't that the AF tables have none of their own. As said choice of upper platter (Steel, Duralumin, Ti) change the sound. It is just that they are reduced over the spectrum more than most if not all others on the market. There is a tradeoff here. Since table borne vibrations eat up a larger portion of the potential cartridge output, you get a form of compression and a loss in dynamic range. Strip the noise down and more of the dynamic potential is returned to the user for deployment. This however also strips away what one might go as far as associate with LP sound. In my case, years with the AF1 and its siblings has redefined what LP sound should be in terms of what is possible with ambient cues, spatial projection and dynamic contrast, admittedly in systems with full real use, effortless, frequency range beyond 20kHz-20Hz. To re-inject some harmonic coloration to taste, a change in the combinations of arms, carts and upper platters, gets me close enough without going too far back into compression or dynamic repression.

It always trips me out when people bitch about stereo systems not having the dynamics of live but continuously knock products that give you dynamics at the source. No increase in speaker sensitivity or brute current, wherever you live in audiophile land, can restore the dynamic range attributes lost at the cart coils. Less than .5mv of potential for the majority of audiophile vinyl listeners. Think about it.

If the perceived dynamics is too much, that is on the end user and the person doing his setup for him, assuming the user has not bothered to learn how to drive his own car. Damping can more easily be done through gain staging and in my opinion is the place where it should be done. My analogy would be the use of a fuel plate restrictor to drop the power rather than changing the entire engine to a less powerful one.
 

TLi

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AF turntables are not meant to cater to the people who highly value introduced harmonic colorations. Sure these colorations become integrated in the brain as things such as warmth or for Peter "ambient information" around instruments. For most this is what they have come to love about vinyl playback. It isn't that the AF tables have none of their own. As said choice of upper platter (Steel, Duralumin, Ti) change the sound. It is just that they are reduced over the spectrum more than most if not all others on the market. There is a tradeoff here. Since table borne vibrations eat up a larger portion of the potential cartridge output, you get a form of compression and a loss in dynamic range. Strip the noise down and more of the dynamic potential is returned to the user for deployment. This however also strips away what one might go as far as associate with LP sound. In my case, years with the AF1 and its siblings has redefined what LP sound should be in terms of what is possible with ambient cues, spatial projection and dynamic contrast, admittedly in systems with full real use, effortless, frequency range beyond 20kHz-20Hz. To re-inject some harmonic coloration to taste, a change in the combinations of arms, carts and upper platters, gets me close enough without going too far back into compression or dynamic repression.

It always trips me out when people bitch about stereo systems not having the dynamics of live but continuously knock products that give you dynamics at the source. No increase in speaker sensitivity or brute current, wherever you live in audiophile land, can restore the dynamic range attributes lost at the cart coils. Less than .5mv of potential for the majority of audiophile vinyl listeners. Think about it.

If the perceived dynamics is too much, that is on the end user and the person doing his setup for him, assuming the user has not bothered to learn how to drive his own car. Damping can more easily be done through gain staging and in my opinion is the place where it should be done. My analogy would be the use of a fuel plate restrictor to drop the power rather than changing the entire engine to a less powerful one.
I can understand your position on AF1. A turntable system should be a transducer, it should not have any sonic character. By definition, transducer is a device that transforms one form of energy to another. In turntable, it changes mechanical vibration in vinyl groove into electrical signal.

In realty, turntable is an musical instrument, whether you like it or not. The stylus and cantilever sing and the rest of the system resonates with them. You can actually hear some music coming from the record surface if you put your ear close enough without turning on the amplifier. The resonators consist of cartridge shell, tonearm, platter surface and the plinth. They can be tuned. There is no neutral turntable. Even the designer, Nishikawa san, said in his presentation that different air pipes have different sound. Air Force turntables are careful tuned system. That tuning can be changed to give different sound.
 

marty

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I have yet to hear reel to reel tape sound as convincing or believable or natural as top vinyl but I remain open minded.
Peter, you have to watch out for all those tape people. They're all crazy!
But they're crazy for a reason! When you hear tape done right, it's really like nothing else. There's a reason master tapes have been a reference for decades. Not the least of which is that LPs are made from master tapes (except for direct to disc LPs of course). I'm not a tape head because at this point in my life, I'm not enthusiastic about paying $400 and up for a good tape and then collect only a limited number that I would likely play with limited frequency. But when it's done right, it really has the potential to deliver music reproduction unlike anything else. I've been fortunate to first hear that magic years ago at Mike Kay's Lyric Hi-Fi with a master tape of Itzhak Perlman on some Infinity IRS speakers that left me drooling. This was followed by similarly wonderful tape sessions at Mike's, Steve's and Myles Astor's homes. When the stars line up for great tape playback, you know it immediately and comparisons to the best vinyl, as tempting as they are to make, are rendered moot.
 
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