All that is wrong with "HiFi"

[SoundMann]

I personally don't significantly disagree with you. But there is no objective right or wrong here.

I personally do not cotton to the sound you are describing. But for audiophiles for whom detail and extension at the frequency extremes are their personal sonic cues which most directly remind them of the sound of live music it is a perfectly legitimate subjective sonic preference.

My point was that this is something that is so pervasive in the industry as a whole that it has become most difficult to find equipment that sounds right at anything near an affordable price.

But to be fair, the budget level has rarely offered sufficiently refined products. But this is something that I want to change.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Under $1K a component these days. Fortunately, the majority of the components in my systems were purchased when I had the money to do so.

Yes this is limiting and you would probably find more bang for the buck in the secondary market. What are you looking to replace in your system? There are some very nice sounding all in ones in the secondary market and this could be a solution.

 

[Kingrex]

It seems to me that there are too many of us that are always actively looking for obscure and expensive ways to tinker with our systems in the vain hope of squeezing a miniscule improvement in their perception of their system's sound quality.

Cables seem to be an obsession for many and vast and crazy sums are paid for these simple though important items. One guy is talking about spending a 5 figure sum on changing his supply of AC power to his system. These sums of money are likely better spent of improving main speakers, amps, etc of the system as these are more likely to make a real improvement in the sound that reaches our ears. Or spend it on concert tickets and listen to real music instruments rather than to vibrating paper cones that try to imitate music instruments!

Power is supremely important. Its worth it to spend $$ to make power optimum. But I do question how much gain comes with power cords beyond a point.

 

[Zuman]

Yes this is limiting and you would probably find more bang for the buck in the secondary market. What are you looking to replace in your system? There are some very nice sounding all in ones in the secondary market and this could be a solution.

Definitely agree!
My Clearaudio table and arm: pre-owned; my Modwright phono stage: demo; my Pachanko server: demo; my Modwright integrated amp: pre-owned; my PS Audio PowerPlant: pre-owned; my M101 LAN cable: demo; most of my interconnects: demo or pre-owned. And while it's not my daily cartridge and I'm not selling it, my 20-year old Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood moving magnet is still magnificent and they often show up on the used marketplaces for around $300 (there's one on that well-known auction site with a new stylus from a legitimate seller for $350 right now).

 

[Kingrex]

My point was that this is something that is so pervasive in the industry as a whole that it has become most difficult to find equipment that sounds right at anything near an affordable price.

But to be fair, the budget level has rarely offered sufficiently refined products. But this is something that I want to change.

Whats your level of affordable? $500? Get a set of Vanatoo. Darn good.
There are great systems at all prices.
I would agree. There is a skill/art in mixing parts to achieve a sound you want. And it takes exposure to know the direction that works for you.

 

[Audiohertz2]

This is a subject that has driven me crazy, especially since the obsessive drive for more "detail" has risen to insane proportions. But the departure from "musically correct" reproduction didn't begin there.

No. It actually began with the use of high feedback in the pursuit of vanishingly low harmonic distortion. This inturn led to the focus of designing solely by numbers as a dominating criteria instead of listening to what truly sounds good, and what doesn't. This has proven to be a mistake time and time again, but few have seemed to learn from it.

What I hear when I listen to the majority of modern hifi components and systems is a bright, hard and fatiguing presentation, often bordering on severe stridency while being harmonically distorted and/or threadbare, and noticeably lacking in musically engaging qualities. What you end up with is an over-hyped sonic microscope that is overly detailed and brutally revealing of everything that is wrong with the recording.

The problem compounding this is that nearly all of the so-called hifi components that I have heard over the last 40 years clearly displays one or more of the above traits to the level of distraction, especially since the majority of them often possess distorted and/or unrefined high frequencies. You may not be able to hear it as well as I do, but I am really sensitive to it.

To sum up this rant, I would like to say that I am looking to form a conglomerate of audio-oriented manufacturing associates with the goal of producing more musically correct components at reasonable prices.

Musically correct to whom vs Musically accurate to all ..!

BTW , why is feedback considered the enemy to good accurate sound, even Ralph has embraced massive amt of feedback , everyone wanting power and stability uses some ....!

 

[PeterA]

Musically correct to whom vs Musically accurate to all ..!

BTW , why is feedback considered the enemy to good accurate sound, even Ralph has embraced massive amt of feedback , everyone wanting power and stability uses some ....!

Perhaps wanting power is because increasingly speakers demand it, and therein lies the problem. The systems that I find most engaging, and those that remind me the most of real music, do not require much power.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Perhaps wanting power is because increasingly speakers demand it, and therein lies the problem. The systems that I find most engaging, and those that remind me the most of real music, do not require much power.

No mate the recording demands it , the higher the DR and the drive for more realism of sound will automatically demand power ..

The science on it is as old as the hills , its a fallacy About speakers requiring less is more , you still need to make the same acoustical power for realism , its a sliding scale , its not about using less power , if its bad its bad , high sensitivity speakers unless very large are unbalanced so you cant drive them with a balanced powerful amp , lower sensitivity speakers driven correctly and still sound bad to you are well , Bad ..!

When done correctly both ways will deliver , tube or SS , high sensitivity or low..!

 

[SoundMann]

Yes this is limiting and you would probably find more bang for the buck in the secondary market. What are you looking to replace in your system? There are some very nice sounding all in ones in the secondary market and this could be a solution.

I have relied heavily on the used market over the last decade. My recent purchase of a BGW amp and a Micro Seiki tonearm are good examples of the level of performance one can occasionally introduce into their system for a song. But it is getting increasingly difficult to find good gear at sane prices.

I have also discovered that the Chinese produce competitive components at a fraction of the cost of their western counterparts, including interconnects and power cords, even a decent MC cartridge.

 

[SoundMann]

The systems that I find most engaging, and those that remind me the most of real music, do not require much power.

Flea power directly-heated triode amps have a truly musical sound nothing else can compare to.

Add the right turntable with an original series Ortofon SPU, and a tubed phonostage with oil caps and a suite of late '50's Mullards.

Add the right speakers, and the sound can be truly magical.

 

[SoundMann]

BTW , why is feedback considered the enemy to good accurate sound, even Ralph has embraced massive amt of feedback , everyone wanting power and stability uses some ....!

I can write a book on the sonic issues that too much feedback can introduce. Suffice it to say that it is best to only use as much as is actually needed.

 

[Audiohertz2]

I have relied heavily on the used market over the last decade. My recent purchase of a BGW amp and a Micro Seiki tonearm are good examples of the level of performance one can occasionally introduce into their system for a song. But it is getting increasingly difficult to find good gear at sane prices.

I have also discovered that the Chinese produce competitive components at a fraction of the cost of their western counterparts, including interconnects and power cords, even a decent MC cartridge.

I thought BGW amps are Quasi outputs like the DC300’s . Plenty good sounding vintage SS amps are available, frankly most of the heavy lifting on amp designs toobs and or SS has been done decades ago...

 

[Audiohertz2]

I can write a book on the sonic issues that too much feedback can introduce. Suffice it to say that it is best to only use as much as is actually needed.

That book has been written many times before now we have atmo-ralph using 120db of it after singing on 0db for decades ..

Anyway throw out one of your issues on feedback , we can start there as its very rare for SS amps not to have some feedback ..!

 

[SoundMann]

Whats your level of affordable? $500? Get a set of Vanatoo.

If you are referring to speakers, I already have a set of Acoustats which I am happy with.

There is a skill/art in mixing parts to achieve a sound you want.

I possess these skills in abundance. But I don't possess the funds to make it possible.

And it takes exposure to know the direction that works for you.

The death of the friendly brick and mortar dealers with good but reasonable priced gear makes this unattainable in practice.

 

[SoundMann]

I thought BGW amps are Quasi outputs like the DC300’s .

They sound nothing alike. If you like the sound of push-pull Pentode tube amps, you will like the sound of the BGW 250 series.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Know the BGW series well had a few 35+yrs ago...

 

[Kingrex]

I possess these skills in abundance. But I don't possess the funds to make it possible.



The death of the friendly brick and mortar dealers with good but reasonable priced gear makes this unattainable in practice.

Bologna. I don't buy it. Your angry and want to drag others down with you. A very pleasant stereo can be assembled at most any price point. There are people on this forum that focus on affordable systems. Because you can't make it happen for yourself does not mean others can't find happiness.

 

[AudioLibertarian]

Many years ago, in the early 90s, I went to a dealer in Hudson Valley (Mount Kisco) who had a pair of the strangest looking loudspeakers I had ever seen. I had no idea what they were, but he played me an LP on them. I was gobsmacked. They didn't sound like any of the usual hyper bright moving coil multi-driver speakers I had heard. They sounded like nothing I had heard. Of course, I promptly figured out a way to buy a pair of them. The speaker in question of course was the Quad 63. In many ways it solved the problem of producing sound pressures in a room from input voltages that is inherently linear, and still remains amongst the lowest distortion truly phase linear speakers you can buy -- 60+ years after Peter Walker first started working on the concept (hence the moniker "63", which dates to his earliest notebooks).

My most recent speaker acquisition is many times the size of a Quad 63, and many times its price: the Soundlab G9-7c, which is over 9 feet tall and 4 feet wide. It has confirmed for me that the surest way to get off the hifi upgrade treadmill is to invest in musically accurate loudspeakers. The rest almost doesn't matter. Of course, as someone who had just graduated with his PhD in AI in the early 1990s, I could not afford the then Soundlab A3 that Gordon Holt raved about in an early Stereophile review. Those days, AI researchers were not paid 7 figure salaries, as they are now in the Bay Area! No one knew what to do with us! But, times have changed, and my bank balance certainly has! Hence, my ability to afford the G9-7c's.

I still have an original Quad ESL (57), which I listen to every morning. No, it's not as awe inspiring as my G9-7c's, which drops you into the powerful thundering sound of a symphony orchestra, but in its own charming way, the 57s still get the gestalt of the music right that defeats almost every other multi-driver dynamic loudspeaker that seem to try to dot all the i's and cross all the t's, but somewhere in the morass of getting all the detail right, the music making is lost.

Dealers who teach you about good products are rare and worth finding out, but it's more luck than anything else in finding them. It's usually the small shops, rather than the big glitzy ones, where you find the true gems.

Was is Sound Mill store in Mount Kisco? Martin the proprietor used to play bassoon at the NY Metropolitan. A true gentleman he was.

 

[AudioLibertarian]

If only you guys knew how hard it is to find non-fatiguing and musically correct components at the budget level!

Try Rega gear on all levels, except their top of the line Osiris amp. Or Guru Audio speakers from Sweden. Eminent Tech 8B are amazing speakers regardless of price, at just $3200 or so. Bowers Wilkins 706 S3 are fantastic do-it -alls as well, both tonally and non fatiguing.

 

[SoundMann]

Bologna. I don't buy it. Your angry and want to drag others down with you. A very pleasant stereo can be assembled at most any price point. There are people on this forum that focus on affordable systems. Because you can't make it happen for yourself does not mean others can't find happiness.

I have been partly successful in achieving my goals. But it has taken years and untold amounts of money to find suitable gear that didn't fatigued me, and connected me to the music. It is an ongoing quest.