All that is wrong with "HiFi"

It would help if you had better technical understanding before you posted such nonsense. CD quality digital is *not* compressed, only MP3 digital or AAC digital are (the latter being the YouTube format on which for some reason some audiophiles like to post system videos). Study the Shannon-Nyquist theorem for bandwidth limited signals. All the information is preserved up to the upper bandwidth limit, there is no compression. In the case of CD, bandwidth is up to 20 kHz, the upper limit of human hearing.

Of course, all this is different from dynamic and other compression that is applied to the recording. But the digital medium itself has no compression.
Brick wall, and other, filters to remove all that digital distortion for CD quality, some say high speed bit-rate causes a distortion is too. Then there are several stages that must be undertaken to master analogue tape to a DSD master, again to convert back to an analogue master (adding reverb, bass and treble extension, and clicks and pops so it sounds “analogue” ) before pressing to vinyl (would have been better just to skip all that stuff and just master to vinyl from the original analogue tape). So much for that “one-step” canard.
 
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plenty of recordings are done 'straight' into an AD these days, and stay in DXD for all messing around, but lets not digress into recordings, since that is a hurdle ANY format has to take...and for sure there are plenty of levels in recording quality but lets assume there are plenty great recordings.

Recordings do not make HIFI wrong, yet a great recording can make HIFI great, is all else is right too, if not nobody will know it's a great recording.
In fact the better my setup becomes the more good and great recordings I discover, it's likely too easy to blame a non involving sound on a 'poor recording/mastering'
 
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It would help if you had better technical understanding before you posted such nonsense. CD quality digital is *not* compressed, only MP3 digital or AAC digital are (the latter being the YouTube format on which for some reason some audiophiles like to post system videos). Study the Shannon-Nyquist theorem for bandwidth limited signals. All the information is preserved up to the upper bandwidth limit, there is no compression. In the case of CD, bandwidth is up to 20 kHz, the upper limit of human hearing.

Of course, all this is different from dynamic and other compression that is applied to the recording. But the digital medium itself has no compression.
Did you say CD not compressed!
Are you saying (for example) Telarc CD identical to their master uncompressed digital recording? Telarc confirm this?

If you correct, can you explain what exact difference between: CD audio vs DVD video Vs DVD audio, Vs Blu Ray video Vs Blu ray Audio, VS 4K blu ray video..... ?
 
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I am reminded of digital photography (as an analogy to what is being done with digital recordings).

I was an amateur photographer. I used to enjoy working in my darkroom, improving my skills in hopes of one day making a portfolio of “fine prints”. And I made a few, just not enough or consistently. When I switched to digital photography my skills were no longer pertinent. No more dodging and burning, perspective control no longer done with camera movements, but instead being done on Photoshop. From then on it is not the fine art photographer who excels but the fellow good with computers.

Although there are some beautiful digital prints out there the majority of people who process digital photos (digital recordings) are not artists, just regular people with varying skill levels processing holiday snaps (digital recordings) and the rest. While some make nice prints (some high def recordings) most of the prints I have seen are overdone, too much “sharpness”, too much “saturation” and the rest resulting in photos (digital recordings) that are detailed (deep bass, extended highs, expansive sound stage) but totally unreal.

Digital photos (recordings), to me, are less natural and cause me to be uncomfortable
Fine art chemical printing and fine art digital printing both require a great deal of knowledge and experience to do well. It has nothing to do with media and everything to do with the person using the media.
 
implementation usually is more important than a technique itself, many implementations simply follow what already has been done and seems to work. Exciting things can happen when lateral thinking is applied.
 
Did you say CD not compressed!
Are you saying (for example) Telarc CD identical to their master uncompressed digital recording? Telarc confirm this?

If you correct, can you explain what exact difference between: CD audio vs DVD video Vs DVD audio, Vs Blu Ray video Vs Blu ray Audio, VS 4K blu ray video..... ?
That is a rather strange way to argue, did Telarc confirm they compressed the master digital recording? did they confirm they did compress the initial digital recording, or not?

There is an abundance of literature on recording and mastering techniques, try read up on it first. Compression is a technique that CAn be used but it does not HAVE to be used and its use is not exclusive to digital (not at all).
 
Fine art chemical printing and fine art digital printing both require a great deal of knowledge and experience to do well. It has nothing to do with media and everything to do with the person using the media.
I humbly disagree. To me, there is a massive difference in the appearance of fine art black and white photographs printed out on silver content paper (and platinum/palladium process/paper) compared with the stark hyper-sharp-acutance digitally processed fine art black and whites (that I have seen).
 
For me, one has more quality, the other more convenience. They are different. I can not deny the ease with which I can pick up my phone and take some nice, even somewhat artistic, snap shots of my audio gear. I rather enjoy going through the thread about system photos.

The photographs in silver frames on my mantle at home, are old black and white film photos that my father took and processed in his dark room. They have a certain quality about them that I cannot replicate with my digital cameras.
Peter, I love old things. I prefer things made of wood, steel and stone over anything made of plastic. I love well made black and white dark room developed photographs. The abstraction of black and white can lead to a deeper artistic experience.

But I see your comments which attempt to conflate digitally produced photography (and music) with the dismissive "convenience" is simply, with all due respect, bias fueled ignorance. If you saw what goes into making a great digital fine art print, "convenience" would be the last word to come to mind!

The photos your father made in his dark room are of course of great personal value. However, that you don't know how to make good prints from your digital camera is not an argument in the face the evidence of all the exceptional digital b&w prints made today.

Photography, with digital tools, is something I have a great deal of e experience with, and I know first hand it has not been ruined by the digital age. For people who make prints at the highest level of craft and art there is no diminution compared to tradition photography. Different tools, simply.
 
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That is a rather strange way to argue, did Telarc confirm they compressed the master digital recording? did they confirm they did compress the initial digital recording, or not?

There is an abundance of literature on recording and mastering techniques, try read up on it first. Compression is a technique that CAn be used but it does not HAVE to be used and its use is not exclusive to digital (not at all).
Most recordings are done at 24/96, are you saying the CD versions are not compressed?
 
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I humbly disagree. To me, there is a massive difference in the appearance of fine art black and white photographs printed out on silver content paper (and platinum/palladium process/paper) compared with the stark hyper-sharp-acutance digitally processed fine art black and whites (that I have seen).
Well, it’s hard to argue what you haven’t seen! But when you are describing digital print making with terms, such as stark hyper sharp, it indicates to me, you have not seen very much at all!

What you are describing is bad photography and very, very bad printing. That has nothing to do with the media or process and everything to do with the photographer!!
 
Most recordings are done at 24/96, are you say the CD versions are not compressed?
I'm not saying ANYTHING ;-)

just putting out some food for thought...DXD as master format is not 24/96 at all...but DXD can be formatted into 24/96, what front end DA is used differs too....choices...but neither of those choices makes digital more flawed than Analog IMHO, Analog has its fair share of 'challenges' as well.
 
Peter, I love old things. I prefer things made of wood, steel and stone over anything made of plastic. I love well made black and white dark room developed photographs. The abstraction of black and white can lead to a deeper artistic experience.

But I see your comments which attempt to conflate digitally produced photography (and music) with the dismissive "convenience" is simply, with all due respect, bias fueled ignorance. If you saw what goes into making a great digital fine art print, "convenience" would be the last word to come to mind!

The photos your father made in his dark room are of course of great personal value. However, that you don't know how to make good prints from your digital camera is not an argument in the face the evidence of all the exceptional digital b&w prints made today.

Photography, with digital tools, is something I have a great deal of e experience with, and I know first hand it has not been ruined by the digital age. For people who make prints at the highest level of craft and art there is no diminution compared to tradition photography. Different tools, simply.

Wil, I was describing my experience with photography, as a hobbyist. I grew up helping my father in the darkroom, watching him lug around his Roloflex or Hassleblad (sp?) and then processing and printing. He moved onto Nikon with color film, and eventually Nikon digital and Sony. I did some good SLR digital sports photography as my kids were growing up sailing and play field sports. I now take images quickly and conveniently while sailing or in my listening room or on vacation with a telephone in my pocket.

I am talking about the convenience as a hobbyist of capturing images, less of post processing, and not at all about printing. Just taking the picture and enjoying the result. That is the analogy with audio listening. I clean and put on an LP, or I load a CD, or I tap a piece of glass. There is no denying the convenience as a user. As an aside, I happen to enjoy my father's old black and white 8 X10 or larger framed images a bit more than the color digital files on my phone or computer, or even the 5 X 7 color prints.

The analogy between audio and photography is at that level only, and admittedly, not strong. I hope that clarifies my earlier comments. I agree that digital has not ruined music, nor photos. Yes, they are different tools, simply.

PS, I happen to prefer wooden sailboats and sports cars from the 1960, but I happily drive a Toyota pick up truck and sail a modern fiberglass sailboat with wood trim. The new truck and sailboat are better performing and have more technology. Perhaps analogies with cars and photos does not further an understanding about audio.

To get back to the OP, I do not think that digital is the issue with Hifi today. I could even argue that I am happy listening to my system and records, so I do not see any problems. I bought what I use two years ago. The hobby is fine as far as I am concerned. There is choice, and we choose how to pursue the hobby. That is a good thing.
 
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Sinking ship!
WHY DOWNLOADS ARE BETTER THAN STREAMINGS
The Audiophile's Dilemma: Streaming Convenience or Sound Quality?
To me, streaming is simply a modern variation of FM radio. In my experience, it doesn’t sound as good as playing a local file—a conclusion shared by other respected audio critics. While streaming is convenient and accessible, it falls short as a true audiophile experience.
Here’s how I arrived at this observation.
My son, Lucca, is starting a speaker company, and I’ve listened to countless versions of his speakers, testing various brands and sizes of internal speaker cables from the crossover to the drivers. Despite identical setups, we consistently hear significant differences between wire configurations, even when measurements suggest they should sound the same. To clarify, we’re not conducting formal double-blind testing here; one person plays the files while the other listens, drawing on our experiences as listeners. With over 50 years as a pianist, composer, orchestrator, and producer of nearly a thousand albums, I trust my musical memory, which I believe extends to tonality as well. In music, we accept pitch memory as valid—so why not tonal memory? I believe that all serious audiophiles who have done critical listening to hi-fi systems over time have developed tonal memories, which is why we might prefer one amp over another.
While testing the speakers, we began comparing streaming audio to local audio files using the same listening methods we applied to the cables. In every case, local files consistently sounded richer and more nuanced, much like live music. On one occasion, we noticed an even greater degradation in streaming quality when another computer in the house was uploading simultaneously. And this listening was done with state-of-the-art audiophile D/A converters that re-clock the data. In spite of this, the stream and local files still sounded different.
This raises a key question: What defines "better," and why do local files sound better to my ears? For a benchmark, I rely on the sound of live music. Streaming files often have an "etched" quality, a kind of artificial resolution, like turning up the contrast on a TV. By contrast, local files offer subtle, rich tones without exaggerated sharpness. Think of it this way: apparent resolution is like fluorescent colors, while real resolution is akin to examining the fine weave of a sweater in real life, where every detail is visible, but nothing unnaturally jumps out. This brings up an aesthetic question as well—do people prefer the "etched" sound of streaming (like canned peas) or the natural, fuller sound of a local file (fresh peas)?
The real mystery to me is that when we capture both files in a Digital Audio Workstation, they null out. So what causes the difference in sound? Even though it’s a digital signal, could it be some triboelectric effect over long wires? Could all the complex connections across the web be picking up electrical noise along the way, degrading the sound during playback?
After downloading and confirming that the files were identical, the streamed version still sounded different in real-time playback. Perhaps there's an "X factor" not yet captured in current scientific testing. But with my extensive experience in live and recorded music, I trust my ears over any graph. The new question for me is are there limitations in current digital audio measurement techniques that fail to capture all perceptible differences in sound quality?
In the end, for casual background music, streaming is fine. But when I want to truly listen and assess the quality of a system, I’ll always opt for a local file.
David Chesky​
 
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Did you say CD not compressed!
Are you saying (for example) Telarc CD identical to their master uncompressed digital recording? Telarc confirm this?

If you correct, can you explain what exact difference between: CD audio vs DVD video Vs DVD audio, Vs Blu Ray video Vs Blu ray Audio, VS 4K blu ray video..... ?

Different bit rates and sampling rates. CD quality is sufficient for audio, see Shannon-Nyquist theorem. Please watch the following video for a better understanding of digital audio:

 
No, I thought converting 24/96 to 16/44.1 is lossy compression, the only debate being whether its audible.
Yeah, I believe your might be. Not a big deal.

Converting 96 to 44 is a lossy process indeed. The original 96kHz information cannot be rebuilt from the 44kHz. That is all that lossy means.
The way to do it is by downsampling. You either discard samples, interpolate anew, not many more options.

For an audio signal, compression means you reduce dynamic range, so the difference between the lowest and highest amplitudes gets smaller. Effectively, the lowest sounds get louder and the highest sounds get lower. This doesn't mean the file size gets smaller, as you still have the same number of samples at the same bit depth. So, after you run sound through a compressor, you get the same file size at the other end.

Compression is a term typically used for files in general. As in compressing a file so it is smaller and fits on a pen drive. Typically this is a lossless process, as in, you can rebuild the original information bit perfect after, by uncompressing the file using suitable software. It's just math and computer science, not a lot of unknowns here. It has nothing to do with audio compression, as audio compression is not a file operation, but a sound effect with the same name.

TLDR: converting 24/96 to 16/44.1 is lossy down sampling. Audio compression is a lossy sound effect used in mastering. A file can be compressed lossless (see flac). These are all different things.
 
Yeah, I believe your might be. Not a big deal.

Converting 96 to 44 is a lossy process indeed. The original 96kHz information cannot be rebuilt from the 44kHz. That is all that lossy means.
The way to do it is by downsampling. You either discard samples, interpolate anew, not many more options.

For an audio signal, compression means you reduce dynamic range, so the difference between the lowest and highest amplitudes gets smaller. Effectively, the lowest sounds get louder and the highest sounds get lower. This doesn't mean the file size gets smaller, as you still have the same number of samples at the same bit depth. So, after you run sound through a compressor, you get the same file size at the other end.

Compression is a term typically used for files in general. As in compressing a file so it is smaller and fits on a pen drive. Typically this is a lossless process, as in, you can rebuild the original information bit perfect after, by uncompressing the file using suitable software. It's just math and computer science, not a lot of unknowns here. It has nothing to do with audio compression, as audio compression is not a file operation, but a sound effect with the same name.

TLDR: converting 24/96 to 16/44.1 is lossy down sampling. Audio compression is a lossy sound effect used in mastering. A file can be compressed lossless (see flac). These are all different things.
The discussion was about whether CD could always be classed as lossless, not sure why you're suggesting I was talking about dynamic compression?
 
was it not about what is wrong with HIFI?
 
The discussion was about whether CD could always be classed as lossless, not sure why you're suggesting I was talking about dynamic compression?

All digital recordings up to now contain noticeably less resolution than the original performance, and they also sound distinctly different as well.

Redbook CD is a highly lossy format which discards a rather large amount of "least significant bits".

I have argued for years that PCM digital formats are highly flawed. High levels of destructive noise, distort, non-linearities and overall lack of fine resolution have plagued it from the get-go.

High order DSD holds much greater promise, sounding much closer to the original performance. But it too suffers from the same issues, just to a much lesser extent.
 

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