Anyone compare MSB sound to dCS Vivaldi or Scarlatti sound? Please share impressions.
- Thread starter caesar
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Adam your right in where you are going with this from your POV, but as I said it is not just analogue or digital, it is both.
Of course the analogue stage changes in some way (which makes this a pointless debate in many ways) with nearly every product is released but the key point is their digital filter is very different between the two while both measuring pretty much neutral from the analogue output.
If filters all sounded the same then there would not be so many different types, nor concern about pre-post ringing, alias rejection, knee, etc, and technically it is easily shown how they can and do noticably differ in various implementations.
But point in my example, I am not aware of any SS analogue stage that can make a rich/lush sound while maintaining exceptionally low distortion and FR remaining flat (and the digital aspects measured excellent as well) especially when talking about a source product when both use the same chip but very different filter implementations.
There has been quite a bit of work done regarding perception and effect of various filter types/implementations, including anecdotal.
However please note that many digital products when they provide options in reality usually only have 2 that sound different as the rest have subtle different coefficients.
I am yet to see a product that implements a broad range of the different filter concepts because each manufacturer has an idea of what the ideal type is.
Anyway each type of filter concept does affect FR droop, alias rejection, pre-post ringing, knee,etc.
I am not the only one to say each modern DAC chipset has their own sound traits, whether AK, Sabre ESS,etc, especially when using the implemented default option filters.
But to stress, I am saying BOTH digital and analogue stages affect the perception/preference and comes down to design-implementation.
Cheers
Orb
Since we are referring to the DCS Vivaldi, I just found some even more troublesome recent comments on it by Jacob Heilbrunn:
Or take John Eliot Gardiner’s recording of Bach’s “Advent” Cantatas for Arkiv. There is something profoundly moving about the ability to hear each chorus gently enter without intruding on the others. The anchoring of the instruments, the lack of any sense of drift, means that it becomes simplicity itself to track complex passages of music, something that also becomes abundantly clear on Andras Schiff’s marvelous recording on ECM of the Bach Partitas.
But the greatest merit of the Reference XL is its supernatural ability to help deliver a kind of clarity on digital playback that I have never previously experienced. The slightest swish of the cymbals, a foot tapping on a piano pedal, the mildest brush of the bow on a cello—nothing is effaced by these cables. There is a limpidity and tranquility, a sense of ease to the sound, that are hard to forget once you’ve heard them. Whether on jazz, classical, rock, or rap, the Reference XL/Vivaldi possesses the ability to vanish from the signal chain, imposing no audible coloration.
No doubt further advancement in digital playback looms. The high end bears more than a passing resemblance to an arms race in which various manufacturers constantly attempt to one-up each other. But for now, the combination of the dCS Vivaldi and Transparent Reference XL digital cables exceeds anything else I have heard. I could tell you that it took a lot of listening and chin-stroking to arrive at this conclusion. Fiddlesticks
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/transparent-reference-xl-digital-link/
It seems we still have a lot to learn in high-end digital.
Or take John Eliot Gardiner’s recording of Bach’s “Advent” Cantatas for Arkiv. There is something profoundly moving about the ability to hear each chorus gently enter without intruding on the others. The anchoring of the instruments, the lack of any sense of drift, means that it becomes simplicity itself to track complex passages of music, something that also becomes abundantly clear on Andras Schiff’s marvelous recording on ECM of the Bach Partitas.
But the greatest merit of the Reference XL is its supernatural ability to help deliver a kind of clarity on digital playback that I have never previously experienced. The slightest swish of the cymbals, a foot tapping on a piano pedal, the mildest brush of the bow on a cello—nothing is effaced by these cables. There is a limpidity and tranquility, a sense of ease to the sound, that are hard to forget once you’ve heard them. Whether on jazz, classical, rock, or rap, the Reference XL/Vivaldi possesses the ability to vanish from the signal chain, imposing no audible coloration.
No doubt further advancement in digital playback looms. The high end bears more than a passing resemblance to an arms race in which various manufacturers constantly attempt to one-up each other. But for now, the combination of the dCS Vivaldi and Transparent Reference XL digital cables exceeds anything else I have heard. I could tell you that it took a lot of listening and chin-stroking to arrive at this conclusion. Fiddlesticks
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/transparent-reference-xl-digital-link/
It seems we still have a lot to learn in high-end digital.
Then the comapro if flawed and the discussion is pointless, as you this is an equation with many variables, and what you are doing is trying to speculate how one variable is behaving, without any idea the other variables are doing.
I never said they do. What I said is the changes are much more subtle than most people realise.
No problem AT ALL. Just look at a very different sonic signatures offered by various solid state preamp (or power amp) designs. This is exactly the same.
I own the Scarlatti & had the MSB Diamond stack belonging to my dealer for comparison a while back. They both sounded very nice. MSB sounded sweeter but in the end I had a subjective preference for the Scarlatti. The DCS has a Reference clock feeding its Master Clock. It made a noticeable difference.
Filters do make the unit sound different. I have clear preference for some filter compared to other.
Regards,
Joe Ling
Filters do make the unit sound different. I have clear preference for some filter compared to other.
Regards,
Joe Ling
I spent a good deal of my time at the Consumer Electronic Show in the MSB suite. Their class amps were there and sounding great as always and the speakers were quite good. Only the Zanden suite rivaled their sound using their second most expensive, Signature Dac V, as I recall. The newest is $90k! They played several cuts when I first walked in and took a seat. The first and second were ones I use always as was the fourth. I was shocked by how good their sound was despite the crappy rooms at CES. I would love to hear their Analog Dac versus my AMS music server and modified Mytek dac with no opamps.
At CES this year I spent an inordinate amount of time in the MSB room. It had the best digital sound I've heard. I have owned dCS gear and sold it and the same with other quite expensive lines. I have never heard any other than the MSB that sounds worth a damn in comparison. My Archiving Vinyl AMS music server and dac, I think, would surpass the MSB, but, of course, they were only playing cds with their transport. I am playing quad DSD from my music server.
I've not heard MSB other than at a show so I don't feel able to comment on its superiority.
Also I think every DCS show demo I've heard has been disappointing and, as a confirmed DCS user, I know I get it sounding much better at home than the company does in the unforgiving setting of a hotel room.
Certainly in use DCS benefits from attention to three areas
1. External clock: the improvement by using a higher performance (lower phase noise) external 10mHz clock is huge. I can only imagine how much further improvement might be obtained by having a master clock which didn't require cumbersome division to get 44.1 or 48kHz signals
2. Cables, in particular clock cables. DCS master lock reference input is 75 ohms whereas most reference clocks expect to see a 50 ohm load. This mismatch will produce reflections in the cable which will have an effect. If using external clock, a load converter is essential as is ensuring that 75 ohm cables actually produce a 75 ohm load
3 support and damping. I've found that use of a good stand ( in my case Harmonic Resolution) together with appropriate damping will make a big difference to DCS
I suspect all of the above will make as much difference as the difference between manufacturers digital systems and, without attention you will not realise the sonic potential of digital equipment.
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