Anyone heard about Meridian's new project called MQA

[JonFo]

It depends on how you define "make stuff sound better". They aren't promising that it will sound better than the original file, rather it is supposed to sound better than what has been delivered to the end customer in the past.

Actually, I think one of the benefits of MQA is that it could make the result better due to incorporating the timing elements of the ADC in the encoding. That is, you could take one of Marks 24/96 files and play it back through a Meridian 861 + DSP 7200SE and it would not sound as good as that same file encoded by MQA and then decoded by that same MQA-enabled Meridian setup.

Why? Because with MQA, the timing errors introduced by the specific ADC box used by Mark are known and modeled, this info is used by the encoder to 'convolve' in the temporal domain the timing data that the decoder can then use to achieve that high temporal resolution.

So yes, I think the process enables the opportunity for it to sound better.

 

[amirm]

While many fixate on the encoding model and the debate on just how 'lossy' it may or may not be, I believe the breakthrough innovation here is getting buried. It is the ability of an MQA stream + MQA-enabled DAC to fully recover timing at high resolution giving an impulse response behaviour that is much better than previously available. All the way down to being able to model the originating ADC box and incorporate that timing information in the stream.

So I would summarize MQA as being TWO things:

1. An elegant data folding scheme to allow high-rez audio to be transmitted at low bandwidth
2. Addressing the temporal accuracy of digital audio by including timing data modeling the source and giving the DAC the ability to deliver much improved (10x) impulse response behaviour, now accurate within the thresholds of human detection.

The last one is the big item, and I'd love to hear others views on that aspect, both technical and perceptual.

We can get pretty good impulse response by using high sample rates and gentle filters. Creating a new proprietary format to solve the same requires way, way more mojo than a little company like Meridian can provide. If this were a consortium of major CE companies, it would be one thing. But one speciality hardware maker just has no chance. 10 years ago maybe. But it just is too late. Meridian will put out something and there will be some boutique content but I just don't see this getting legs. Good or bad or different.

 

[jkeny]

If RB sampling can theoretically resolve timing down to picoseconds, how does higher sampling rates gives us better impulse response?

Is it because we are limiting the bandwidth to a higher frequency than RBCD prior to the ADC?

If MQA can capture & compensate for ADC errors then that should offer a sonic advantage to using it.

 

[amirm]

While Meridian talks about timing resolution, I am not going there . Instead, I am talking about accepted theory that long pre-echo on the reconstruction filter may be audible.

Here is a quick simulation of resampling down to 48 Khz using a sharp filter:

Pre-ringing is about 3 to 4 milliseconds.

Here is a more gentle version of the same:

Now the pre-ringing is less than 1 millisecond.

The only difference here is how fast the filter truncates higher frequencies.

At much higher sample rates than 48 Khz, we can relax the filter even more, getting us pretty sharp impulse response, while fully maintaining compatibility with current PCM systems.

 

[crion]

Specifics aside, could there be a value for MQA to provide for lossless streaming of Highres audio for the audiophiles out there?

I mean today, there is NO streaming service at all for highrez. Could there be a premium market for streaming highres audio? Or provide highres audio downloads at the space consumed by a RBCD?

I'm thinking, if this is so clever and actually provides many or all of the higres benefits, what if we could just convert 24/xxx material to MQA and no more 4Gb downloads for DSD or whatever. Just a 400MB album but getting highres results with proper content upto 40KHz.

 

[amirm]

Hi-res streaming could be there today. 24-bit, stereo at 96 Khz is only 4.9 mbit/sec without any compression so similar to HD video streaming today.

So it is not a technology problem. I consider high-end customers "collectors" of music. So likely folks want to buy/download rather than pay subscription. But that is my assumption. What do people think? Would you pay say, $20/month to subscribe to high-resolution audio streams?

 

[still-one]

Hi-res streaming could be there today. 24-bit, stereo at 96 Khz is only 4.9 mbit/sec without any compression so similar to HD video streaming today.

So it is not a technology problem. I consider high-end customers "collectors" of music. So likely folks want to buy/download rather than pay subscription. But that is my assumption. What do people think? Would you pay say, $20/month to subscribe to high-resolution audio streams?

Amir
There is quite a bit of music out there where there is not enough content on a individual release to warrant purchasing a album for a couple of tracks. Currently I like how Rhapsody in fully integrated into MDMS (Sooloos) and I play play those tracks without having to own and store the music. For the most part the SQ even at Rhapsody rates is not an issue. With Tidal higher quality and the possibility that MQA sounds as good as those who have heard indicate, SQ would no longer be a factor.

As you note I do prefer to own my music but I will continue to be selective in the releases I purchase. The number of CD's that I now purchase that just sit on the shelf has gone way down.

 

[crion]

Hi-res streaming could be there today. 24-bit, stereo at 96 Khz is only 4.9 mbit/sec without any compression so similar to HD video streaming today.

So it is not a technology problem. I consider high-end customers "collectors" of music. So likely folks want to buy/download rather than pay subscription. But that is my assumption. What do people think? Would you pay say, $20/month to subscribe to high-resolution audio streams?

I think this is the real question, 20$ a month for Highres streamed, I say yes in my system. Tidal is launching that service now!

 

[crion]

Interview with Pål of Tidal regarding the new streaming High-Res service they are starting this year based on Meridian MQA.

http://www.whathifi.com/news/ces-2015-tidal-to-launch-high-res-streaming-service-using-meridian-mqa

 

[crion]

Bob Stuart and Atlantic Records CEO interview Here

Atlantic have quite a few gems in their catalogue.

 

[stehno]

We can get pretty good impulse response by using high sample rates and gentle filters. Creating a new proprietary format to solve the same requires way, way more mojo than a little company like Meridian can provide. If this were a consortium of major CE companies, it would be one thing. But one speciality hardware maker just has no chance. 10 years ago maybe. But it just is too late. Meridian will put out something and there will be some boutique content but I just don't see this getting legs. Good or bad or different.

Very astute, amirm.

The more I read about MQA, the more I'm convinced it's become nothing more than a huge propaganda push with little or no benefit, or worse. Perhaps just to inject a bit more life into a dying industry.

Just one of many example. MQA's performance claims are outlandish, guaranteeing that we will hear what was heard in the studio. Besides such claims implying that nothing else in the chain matters, I can't help but wonder if that's before or after Bob Stuart injects his DSP into the mix that he learned from his neuroscience research.

 

[crion]

The proof is in the pudding. Have you listened to MQA? I have and several others in the industry. There is a definite improvement on certain tracks, it's easiest to judge the favourites. But think about the new 2L classical recordings for example. Now we have a way to listen to superior quality equal to 24/192 on a regular streaming service like Tidal with Redbook FLAC bandwidth requirements. Talk about revolutionizing streaming hires content (because there is none practically today).

IFA in September is the official start of MQA from MQA Ltd. Then the chain will be presented. I hope Tidal is one of the MQA puzzlebits as they announce their Hires service later this year.

 

[esldude]

The proof is in the pudding. Have you listened to MQA? I have and several others in the industry. There is a definite improvement on certain tracks, it's easiest to judge the favourites. But think about the new 2L classical recordings for example. Now we have a way to listen to superior quality equal to 24/192 on a regular streaming service like Tidal with Redbook FLAC bandwidth requirements. Talk about revolutionizing streaming hires content (because there is none practically today).

IFA in September is the official start of MQA from MQA Ltd. Then the chain will be presented. I hope Tidal is one of the MQA puzzlebits as they announce their Hires service later this year.

Yeah, it looks like Tidal is on board to use MQA. Not sure of a timetable.

MQA doesn't improve things according to Stuart. It allows a perceptibly transparent transmission of hires at low bit rate. Which is perhaps what you had in mind. That hires is an improvement over standard redbook rates.

The issue was brought up here, and confirmed by Stuart MQA doesn't improve what goes through the process, but only allow its transmission at lower bit rates.

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=4658

 

[still-one]

The proof is in the pudding. Have you listened to MQA? I have and several others in the industry. There is a definite improvement on certain tracks, it's easiest to judge the favourites. But think about the new 2L classical recordings for example. Now we have a way to listen to superior quality equal to 24/192 on a regular streaming service like Tidal with Redbook FLAC bandwidth requirements. Talk about revolutionizing streaming hires content (because there is none practically today).

IFA in September is the official start of MQA from MQA Ltd. Then the chain will be presented. I hope Tidal is one of the MQA puzzlebits as they announce their Hires service later this year.

I second a couple of your points. Having finally had the opportunity to hear MQA at a local dealer the format has the potential for offering us better sound than most of us have heard on our systems. Now if they can just get most of the record companies on board and start releasing current content and not just the SOS that is the primary fodder we see on HDTracks.

 

[crion]

Yeah, it looks like Tidal is on board to use MQA. Not sure of a timetable.

MQA doesn't improve things according to Stuart. It allows a perceptibly transparent transmission of hires at low bit rate. Which is perhaps what you had in mind. That hires is an improvement over standard redbook rates.

The issue was brought up here, and confirmed by Stuart MQA doesn't improve what goes through the process, but only allow its transmission at lower bit rates.

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=4658

Bear in mind that Mark Waldrep writes everything in accordance with his own viewpoint that 24/96 recording and playback is the best you probably ever need. Also he does not ponder much about Redbook matters which we mostly listen to, and sometimes just upsampled or just "16bit load/24bit saves" materials of it off HDTracks.

Don't forget that MQA will actually be the recording the artists signs off on when you see that MQA light come on your DAC/Player. Not what HDTracks or any other "highres" service saved it as. That is also important in todays "highres" world where people want highres and ready to pay for it, BUT the master was only 16/44KHz, what to do, what to do, yeah we save it in 24/48.. problem solved

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I went to the Meridian 'Dog and Pony' show at Newport. it was a 20 minute closed demo. the music sounded nice but not special.....but so what.

meh.

it was basically an infomercial with zero value as far as proof of purpose. if there is any value whatsoever from MQA this demo did nothing to prove it. all the music was from Meridian. until there is an independant opportunity for a third party to use the process or I have it in my room to try who knows.

OTOH what they said was impressive if they pull it off. they suggest that a wide majority of mastering and recording facilities will use it. pretty grandiose representation.

but my long term perception of Bob Stuart and Meridian is very much PCM rhetoric and no real value. I remain highly skeptical of any value to MQA. of course; if MQA does bring us music lovers better performance in some way then i'll be thankful and give them plenty of credit.

and as little credibility as Bob Stuart has on his music delivery world view, Mark Waldrup is even lower in that respect in my book.

 

[Orb]

Yeah, it looks like Tidal is on board to use MQA. Not sure of a timetable.

MQA doesn't improve things according to Stuart. It allows a perceptibly transparent transmission of hires at low bit rate. Which is perhaps what you had in mind. That hires is an improvement over standard redbook rates.

The issue was brought up here, and confirmed by Stuart MQA doesn't improve what goes through the process, but only allow its transmission at lower bit rates.

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=4658

Sorry but where in the article does it mention it does not improve the process?
I get it cannot improve a 24-bit master file, but MQA is meant to be more than just a transmission solution.
Thanks
Orb

 

[Orb]

We can get pretty good impulse response by using high sample rates and gentle filters. Creating a new proprietary format to solve the same requires way, way more mojo than a little company like Meridian can provide. If this were a consortium of major CE companies, it would be one thing. But one speciality hardware maker just has no chance. 10 years ago maybe. But it just is too late. Meridian will put out something and there will be some boutique content but I just don't see this getting legs. Good or bad or different.

You could be right about it being nearly 5-10 years too late, but they do have the experience and histeory in getting traction with their technology to be used licensed such as its use by Dolby and DVDs (appreciate it is incredibly more complex getting the fractured music business on board and critically implementing or using MQA).

Cheers
Orb

 

[amirm]

You could be right about it being nearly 5-10 years too late, but they do have the experience and histeory in getting traction with their technology to be used licensed such as its use by Dolby and DVDs (appreciate it is incredibly more complex getting the fractured music business on board and critically implementing or using MQA).

Cheers
Orb

Their success came at a time when Dolby was super powerful and was the front man for MLP/Dolby TrueHD. Today, Dolby doesn't have that power let alone Meridian. Meridian by itself has no power at all in the industry.

The industry at large has also changed. There was a time when top executives in labels bragged about importance of fidelity. They introduced SACD and DVD-A. But with the failure of that effort, and all of those people getting fired, no one dares creating a business plan to address anything high-end. The music business has serious issues at its core that the last thing it is going to do is worry about serving the high-end.

Personally, I don't like to see fragmentation of high-resolution music. We can download and play high-resolution PCM today with ease. There is no problem to be solved. For streaming, current quality is fine for the application that it has which is sampling, and casual listening (for audiophiles). Streaming is lousy business by itself. Trying to create an even more specialized one that requires a new format adoption, and targets the tiny portion of audiophiles who adopts this makes it even less viable.

There will be a push to be sure and some adoption. But I think it will be tiny and insignificant in grand scheme of things.

If this came around when we had a hard time downloading high resolution audio, then it would have had value. But today, as much as it pains me, I worry about all the effort and drain on Meridian to go after this market.

 

[Orb]

Well there is one problem to be resolved and something you even know and talked about yourself
The state of getting transparent digital music files; it is surprising just how much hirez music released has some kind of digital issue due to the recording-editing-mastering and even distribution (look at the thread Bruce has had recently on his own problems with his files).
These problems should not exist, and then we have the joys of relying upon studios transcode between DXD and DSD depending upon how recorded-edited-etc.

I agree as consumers we should not need another solution to resolve this crud, but it seems the industry cannot cope themselves (as we both say due to the fractured nature of the business and interchangeable systems-solutions).
I appreciate I go further than you with my point in brackets at the end).

Cheers
Orb