Apogee Full range

[Zero000]

Well having owned a straight refurb and also coming up with the frame bracing method we used to build a more rigid pair, it is obvious it pays dividends. It keeps the membranes in a more fixed position relative to the air it is trying to move. In other words, it is more accurate and boy you can hear it.

Accurate may well NOT be your bag. Plenty of good sounding inaccurate speakers out there... and at huge prices. Solid engineering isn't necessarily what people want.

People think Maggies sound great then realise they are as flimsy as hell. Which they are. They they go and buy some decent frame enhancing stands and tell everyone the difference it makes. Because it does make a marked one.

I came up with the Interstella spec out of curiousity and the fact I am an engineer at work and at heart. The only thing in them that is Graz made is the ribbons - for anyone curious.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes but Maggie's to me sound flimsy, that is the difference. I think magnets and ribbons is higher in both Analysis as well as the GT Audio hybrid Logan look alike that is a ribbon magnetostat from NJ, and that is reflected in sound vs. Maggies. I will just put track audio or such feet below and firm it up, I won't want to pay more for a better frame except marginally more.

 

[Zero000]

Jon in Birmingham does not know what he is in for with this discerning crew!

Credit for excellence I'd hope.

 

[Zero000]

Yes but Maggie's to me sound flimsy, that is the difference. I think magnets and ribbons is higher in both Analysis as well as the GT Audio hybrid Logan look alike that is a ribbon magnetostat from NJ, and that is reflected in sound vs. Maggies. I will just put track audio or such feet below and firm it up, I won't want to pay more for a better frame except marginally more.

The sheer mass of the frame/magnets in a standard Apogee and to an extent the Analysis keeps the ribbons more fixed than a Maggie.

I use Track audio spikes.

 

[microstrip]

Hi I have discussed this with Albert. A year back at least he said his Focals weren't sounding as good as the Dalis - but he was determined to make them sound better. He believes in working, modding a speaker over 5 - 6 years to develop it. Anyway the Megaline used price is 10 - 15k USD. It needs an extra amp. Thing is with Dali Megalines I can replicate Marty's system but with ribbons instead of soft domes.

These are the keywords. Even if we believe in a speaker either we work around it to make it sound great or we gave up and go on next one. But "making them sound better" takes a lot of effort and time.

I exchanged mails with Albert when I ordered my A1's - at that time he had just moved from the SoundLab's to the Dali's, mainly due to reliability problems. He told me exactly the same. I followed his effort tuning the system around the Dali's in his system section at Audiogon during years. And yes, at that time I also I seriously considered a pair of Dali's that appeared for sale at a nice price in the UK.

BTW, does Henk van der Hoeven have a site with details about his Apogee refurbishment? I could find his email and a few references, but little else.

 

[Zero000]

BTW, does Henk van der Hoeven have a site with details about his Apogee refurbishment? I could find his email and a few references, but little else.

No. He is just on the list of Graz approved refurbishers as far as I know, like Jon Oakey.

 

[bonzo75]

I will be visiting him to listen to Grands Jan end or Feb

 

[spiritofmusic]

Making a bit of an advance decision that may impinge on my choice of spkrs.
Will most likely convert my proposed triangular x-section loft space 45' deep x 9' high x 16' wide (useable, 30' total) to be new dedicated audio space.
This is going to allow me to accommodate my current or new Zus, AG Duos Mezzos/Trios w.Basshorns, Cessaro Liszts, Jon Oakey-built Graz Apogee Duetta Signatures, Advance 7 Graz Duettas, AA Omegas/Amphytrons. This is my likely final shortlist for my one-off uber spkr purchase.
Going to visit Justin/User211 before Xmas to audition his Oakey-built Graz Duettas "Interstellars", just after an AA Omegas visit, then to Jon to hear newly-arrived Graz Apogee Advance 7 Duettas. That should give me the top and bottom of whether planars are for me.

 

[bonzo75]

If that's the case, the shortlist should be Zus, Trios with bass horns, Advance 7, Amphi, Liszt. There is no point having an Omega in that room instead of an Amphi given cost difference is not much. You will have to choose between Advance 7 and Amphi - latter louder for the room, and less expensive than former. Graz himself said the Advance 7 does not play loud like the previous apogees but you will have to check if quality superior to Amphi. You don't play loud anyway. Then choose between Advance 7/Amphi, Liszt, and Trios. The AG factory guy himself will tell you not to have a duo when you can have a trio. He will also willingly postpone a sale to give you time up with the budget. When somebody writes duos/trios, I thank the God for gifting me with golden ears.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bonzo, I guess those counterbalance my cauliflower ears !
I don't believe Peter demoes Amphytrons, where can I hear them? Anywhere in the UK?
Are you sure I should rule out Jon Oakey-built Graz Duettas like Justin's Interstellars? I find it hard to believe there won't be significant diminishing returns going to Advance 7s (from what I can glean, the magnets won't be massively more powerful, and most of the change may be frame stability which I know you're skeptical is critical on sq). They're bound to be more in AA Omegas price range. Advance 7s will be in the same ball park as Trios/B'horns. Liszts likely to be just out of affordability. Zus remain the familiar choice, and if news I hear on design choices of their upcoming $30k flagships is anything to go by, they'll hit another home run.

 

[bonzo75]

I am not skeptical that frame stability is critical. I think it is important but as long as the end sound is better than other stuff that you have heard, what's the point in saying the frame should have been better? Yes, if you think the sound wasn't good enough, then by all means. I have heard Justin's first Apogee, which I didn't like, and then his Interstellars, which were really good and the jump was huuuge, with frame being a critical step-up. But then I loved the full range even more, and the frame wasn't as good as the Interstellars, but possibly the ribbon was better. All I am cautioning against is playing 'designer'. I think Advance 7's will be much better but will they be loud enough for such a big room. Of course you don't need to use the whole room.

 

[spiritofmusic]

The 45' depth may be split in half, one side for audio, the other for guest sleeping. Ron has already warned me that this enormous depth could be massively challenging for bass esp. 22.5' x 16' x 9' much more conventional.
Can you compare and contrast the Full Ranges and Duettas Interstallars?
For me, the choice btwn these two comes down to the fact that the Interstellar Duettas and Advance 7s are apparently SET friendly, and the Full Ranges aren't.

 

[bonzo75]

Justin ran it for years with his Airtight 80w monos, stubbornly telling everyone they are the best suited, and now has moved to SS Accuphase 300w or so monos which he says sound better. I can't necessarily contrast the two speakers. The Full range room was much better and bigger than Justin's, whose room is relatively small. The mids were superb. And the sound was larger because the panel is bigger. Justin's, from memory, was better balanced

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, I was always a bit skeptical that SETs were ever going to really drive planars correctly. Maybe only the tube friendly Graz Definitives would truly work, but at $100k a pr, and requiring 3 stereo/6 monoblock SET amps, we're getting into silly money territory.
I'm going to investigate Graz planars w/as much of an open mind as possible, but if I find that setups are SS-orientated, or have to be driven hard/played loud for the sound to come together, my journey for big spkr upgrade will centre on AG Trios w.B'horns/Cessaro Liszts/Zu Experiences. I know Peter runs the AAs w/Nat SETs, and am going to see if he can get an Amphytron/Transmitters demo together. Do you know of any UK set ups?

 

[bonzo75]

No but Amphis work fine with sub 100w SETs. Advance 7 should

 

[spiritofmusic]

Don't want to clog the forum w/the same q, but where to hear the Amphis? Anywhere in the UK?

 

[marty]

Ked,
I love Apogees as well. The ribbons are indeed special. You have to get to Dallas. There's an Apogee guy there who has forgotten more about Apogees than most people will ever know. Has built a hybrid speaker using sections from several models. Massive tube power. Very formidable system. I forgot his name (I don't think he is on the forum) but Steve will know. In addition to hearing a superb version of Apogees, you have Brian Flowers Alexandria system, Albert Porter's Focal system, and Michael's Vivid G3 system. Would be a very worthwhile trip.
Marty

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think it is important but as long as the end sound is better than other stuff that you have heard, what's the point in saying the frame should have been better?

I understand, and that is perfectly logical from a sound quality point of view. Maybe I should articulate the point by saying that I have an extra-sonic criterion of what is, to me, high quality construction, separate and apart from sound quality.

 

[bonzo75]

Ked,
I love Apogees as well. The ribbons are indeed special. You have to get to Dallas. There's an Apogee guy there who has forgotten more about Apogees than most people will ever know. Has built a hybrid speaker using sections from several models. Massive tube power. Very formidable system. I forgot his name (I don't think he is on the forum) but Steve will know. In addition to hearing a superb version of Apogees, you have Brian Flowers Alexandria system, Albert Porter's Focal system, and Michael's Vivid G3 system. Would be a very worthwhile trip.
Marty

Yes I plan to do Texas once. Also Duke Lejeune's system where he uses certain subs supposedly designed to go with planar speakers.

 

[bonzo75]

Marc, no. No Amphy in the UK. If you like really like the Omegas, you can travel to the US to listen to one.