Hey Robert I agree with you. I own Purist Audio Design cables. And I wil tell you I would NOT spend the money if they did not make a positive contribution to the system. A long time ago I hooked leads from a scope up to an interconnect and the cable was not even hooked to anything. You should have seen the noise that existed on that antenna , oops I mean cable. Resistance, capacitance, inductance, skin effect, magnetic fields, dielectric absorption, phase shift, the priciples of sound signals riding cables are not that simple. A music signal is quite complex. To say cables are snake oil is like the statement I hear from many that say ones and zeros are ones and zeros ( D to A conversion). This only exposes what these people don't understand. I will say that there are MANY cable makers that just throw materials toghether and get a certain sound and claim they are the best. I have searched cables for 15 years and each time found that they did some things well and others not so well. It was many years before I let go of my hard earned money. The real acid test is removing the cables and putting standard ones on and seing if you can live with the sound. The big goal for me is to get high resolution, linear response, and musicallity. The PAD cables do this for me. Jim Aud the founder for PAD is a former NASA engineer. He uses computer modeling and then extensive listening. I highly recommend this brand even at entry level.....especially at entry level. He was the one that first used cryo treating of his cables and now it is a method that is used even in the milltary. It is ok others think I am foolish, everyone is allowed their opinion. If you look at the frequency response of a $300 amplifier and a $24,000 amp the numbers may be the same but we all know they don't sound the same. The only question is , is it worth it too you.
Are High-End Cables a Scam?
- Thread starter Robert
- Start date
In the end, who really cares?
If cables make a difference in your system, great!
If you don't believe in cables, fine since no one is twisting anyone's arm to buy expensive cables.
I didn't see any ads for audio consumer cops lately. Stop trying to always rain on someone elses parade.
If cables make a difference in your system, great!
If you don't believe in cables, fine since no one is twisting anyone's arm to buy expensive cables.
I didn't see any ads for audio consumer cops lately. Stop trying to always rain on someone elses parade.
Myles, are you saying that companies should be free to charge 25-50x the parts cost of a cable, as long as someone is happy? Should there not be some tangible relationship between cost and price?
That's not even the question, and 25 - 50X the cost of materials would be a raging bargain in the premium cable market. The question is are we saying that companies should be allowed to defraud consumers? Should there not be some tangible relationship between marketing claims and performance? Here's a simple example from the silliest end of high-end, premium digital cables: HDMI cables labeled 120Hz ready, 240Hz ready, 600Hz ready. The implication clearly being that you must buy the more expensive cable if you want to take advantage of your TV's faster refresh rate. But every cable carries every signal to every TV at 60Hz. The 120, 240, 600 all happens inside the TV and has nothing whatsoever to do with the cable. It never has. It never will. There is no reason to put that totally irrelevant information on the cable package unless you are trying to deceive buyers. They have managed to slip around our loose consumer protection laws through a very careful choice of words, but they're still lying.
Here's an interesting experiment: Google a bunch of the "premium materials" and processes described in cable marketing. See how many of them only show up only in hits tied directly back to the cable company in question; as someone said here recently, see how many are some small cable company with very limited resources miraculously discovering exceptions to the laws of physics. They're making half of this stuff up as they go along. Since the end of WWII, we have deliberately and strategically created a consumer-driven economy in America, and we do, rightfully, have consumer cops whether you've seen the ads or not. They're just not doing a very good job of serving and protecting.
Tim
You are now raising a different question, that should be considered separately. Otherwise we risk looping in this debate. The pseudo scientific arguments that a FEW, not all, cable manufacturers use in their promotion are a sad story, but should not be used to denigrate the whole community of cable manufacturers.
In order to make this debate useful you have to analyze the situation of high-end cable market.
Some people, that I respect, state that cable effects are inaudible. Surely high cost cables should be a scam for them.
Some others, say that they can not find any relation between raw cost and cable improvements. However, as there are no objective data of cable performance no one can prove it. The only force that can separate the good guys from the bad guys is the market reaction, and help from knowledgeable experts and people with proper expertise is needed. Unhappily someone who says that there are no differences and everything sounds the same will not be of great help.
Cable debates can be polite if we do not debate our fundamental dogmas and keep cool.
You do or else you would not have posted this. The debate may need to move toward what a manufacturer can get away with.
It is clear to anyone following this industry that High End Audio pricing structure is getting more similar to Jewelry than (likely) any other hobby. Cables in particular have a margin that few items outside of jewelry can touch, they routinely cost more than whole decent systems and with no end in sight (vide the $42,000 cable, that I am sure, of which some reviewer will extoll the incredible virtues) ...
Now about raining on someone parade.. How so? The thread asks a questions and people are offering their answers, so far no flames.. Statements of fact: Can people reliably hear the differences brought by cables, Can manufacturers claims be substantiated? And if they can't isn't a reasonable question to ask if it isn't a scam? Especially at those prices ...
Quite a number of people seem to care about the answer to that question.. many do know the answer...
The thread is not whether cables make a difference. Rather, it is asking what is a reasonable price. I understand people need to make a living wage, R&D are considerable costs, marketing is not cheap, many customers like to kick the tires and chat, etc. Also factor in dealer margins, and needing to provide cables to audio reviewers.
I would think the raw materials should cost somewhere around 3-5x the retail cost. In another words, $100 in parts should cost in the $300-500 ballpark, and would be unusual to cost >$1,000. For people in the business, perhaps they could shed some light on the accounting.
I would think the raw materials should cost somewhere around 3-5x the retail cost. In another words, $100 in parts should cost in the $300-500 ballpark, and would be unusual to cost >$1,000. For people in the business, perhaps they could shed some light on the accounting.
My personal beliefs about the value of cables lines up with Frantz. But that said, the pricing of cables is only too high when no one will purchase them any longer. I also believe that many consumers of exotic (i.e. expensive) audio equipment buy what they buy as much or more for "showmanship" as they do for any other reason. And if that is accurate, then for that type of consumer to be able to "boast" about his $40,000 interconnects provides him the "value" that is important to him, and hence he will pay the price.
From the cable "manufacturers" (and dealers) perspective, if they can earn $37,000 on a $40,000 pair of cables, what a deal!!
While not exactly the same, let's use a watch example. A *basic $7000 Rolex tells time as well as a $130,000 diamond encrusted President but the guy who wears the expensive version is perfectly happy with his purchase. *I think it was Frantz who referred to some audio components as audio jewelry and, as I suggested above, mega expensive cables fall into that category (for some).
If I had the money, I wouldn't own a $130,000 watch nor $40,000 wire, but if that is what floats your boat, then the cable companies will be glad assist.
Sent from my iPad
From the cable "manufacturers" (and dealers) perspective, if they can earn $37,000 on a $40,000 pair of cables, what a deal!!
While not exactly the same, let's use a watch example. A *basic $7000 Rolex tells time as well as a $130,000 diamond encrusted President but the guy who wears the expensive version is perfectly happy with his purchase. *I think it was Frantz who referred to some audio components as audio jewelry and, as I suggested above, mega expensive cables fall into that category (for some).
If I had the money, I wouldn't own a $130,000 watch nor $40,000 wire, but if that is what floats your boat, then the cable companies will be glad assist.
Sent from my iPad
Many of the extremely expensive high end cables are very overpriced for their products, no question about it. I personally try to find the cables that are considered high end for performance but sell for reasonable prices and compare favorably or to my ears outperform substantially more expensive cables by better known or esoteric makers.
Rich
Rich
I wasn't sure I wanted to respond to this thread, because as someone else said such threads tend to go nowhere, usually get acrimonious, etc. But I think I will now share some thoughts for what it's worth and end my contribution to this thread.
Like everyone else, I assign value to what I buy. Despite the fact cables do make a difference, in my mind I have never been able to assign them high value, based on what I've heard and what I am asked to pay. I have also seen and heard gross incompetence with a number of name-brand products - even just looking at their soldering - so the pictures posted herein are just more of the same to me. Cables, in my view, are nothing more than condiments in the recipe, to fine tune (and certainly not destroy) the sound; not sure I want to spend a lot of money on that.
Cables, like all of audio, is part science part art - e.g. soldering is art. Let's just say I research very deeply each cable manufacturer before I buy anything from them, to first understand their science and art, if any - I do not use listening as the sole determining factor. Then I listen, and then bargain hard, because I have not seen a lot of ground-breaking science to justify the high prices, to be honest. In addition, I have even bought products from manufacturers whose methods I have criticized at great length (directly to them, not in public forums, of course), as was the case, for example, recently with Shunyata and their "measurements" ads (if it matters, I did so because they contacted me first; and I am glad to report that I saw changes in their ads to address some of the serious issues I pointed out in the original drafts). I purchased them because there is some applicable science and definitely competence behind some of these products, and I admit I am not too sure I did the right research on some others (most notably some of my Siltech power cords).
In the end, I may disagree with some (or even a lot) of the claims some manufacturers make, I even find some of their designs questionable - even unprovable - and the corresponding prices outrageous, but there are some competent people in this cable business with competent products. A consumer is then tasked with digging up the competent, well-versed engineers and assign value to their products.
Personally, I am often frustrated during my research, especially when someone says 'here's something different but I won't tell you what this means electrically or as applicable to audio - you user, go listen!', e.g. this from Kubala-Sosna (since they were referenced in this thread)... or this articulation pole thing in the MIT ads.
Like everyone else, I assign value to what I buy. Despite the fact cables do make a difference, in my mind I have never been able to assign them high value, based on what I've heard and what I am asked to pay. I have also seen and heard gross incompetence with a number of name-brand products - even just looking at their soldering - so the pictures posted herein are just more of the same to me. Cables, in my view, are nothing more than condiments in the recipe, to fine tune (and certainly not destroy) the sound; not sure I want to spend a lot of money on that.
Cables, like all of audio, is part science part art - e.g. soldering is art. Let's just say I research very deeply each cable manufacturer before I buy anything from them, to first understand their science and art, if any - I do not use listening as the sole determining factor. Then I listen, and then bargain hard, because I have not seen a lot of ground-breaking science to justify the high prices, to be honest. In addition, I have even bought products from manufacturers whose methods I have criticized at great length (directly to them, not in public forums, of course), as was the case, for example, recently with Shunyata and their "measurements" ads (if it matters, I did so because they contacted me first; and I am glad to report that I saw changes in their ads to address some of the serious issues I pointed out in the original drafts). I purchased them because there is some applicable science and definitely competence behind some of these products, and I admit I am not too sure I did the right research on some others (most notably some of my Siltech power cords).
In the end, I may disagree with some (or even a lot) of the claims some manufacturers make, I even find some of their designs questionable - even unprovable - and the corresponding prices outrageous, but there are some competent people in this cable business with competent products. A consumer is then tasked with digging up the competent, well-versed engineers and assign value to their products.
Personally, I am often frustrated during my research, especially when someone says 'here's something different but I won't tell you what this means electrically or as applicable to audio - you user, go listen!', e.g. this from Kubala-Sosna (since they were referenced in this thread)... or this articulation pole thing in the MIT ads.
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If I was a sheik in Dubai, I would still insist on my platinum, garden hose cables encrusted with rubies. The other sheiks would consider me a wimp with anything less.
The rubies really deepen the sound stage, if your system is revealing enough to take advantage of them and your ears are good enough to hear the incredible, dramatic day and night transformation.
Tim
Robert:
Is this any different than any other high-end product? Or an haut couture product? Rather than singling out cable manufacturers for ripping off consumers, why not ask the same of electronics, speaker and front end manufacturers? I remember many years ago a 25 K amplifier being brought in from Europe whose price seemed very hard to justify once one popped the top.
Marty:
Actually I saw a lot of Nordost around the show
Magico used MIT to good effect too. But yes K-S was in many rooms--and based on my own listening at home, is a very good cable. It's right up there with Transparent, MIT and Nordost.
Then you'd like the cables Joe Cohen of Lotus audio was using. They were the size of sewer pipe
I stand on the side of 'high end cables are a scam' because, beyond a certain level of performance, all the rest is mental dress-up. As they say, "a fool and his money are soon parted".
High end cables are the modern day version of the Emperor's New Clothes.
What is needed for speaker cable is the ability to carry enough current to maintain the damping factor from the amplifier to the speakers.
Interconnects need to maintain reasonable capacitance per foot, have good shielding to keep out stray noise and preferably gold plated contacts to prevent corrosion from causing intermittents/distortion due to diode effects over many years of use.
I find that a good Monoprice type cable is super-adequate. I can hear a difference between Radio Shack cables that come with a VCR/CD player and Monoprice, but only on extreme dynamic range source material and at elevated volume levels, such as with my Ultimate Fireworks Blu-ray, where the dynamic range exceeds 85dB. Cheap cables have a higher noise floor, particularly hum. When I installed the Monoprice RCA cables, the hum level went down about 2.5dB.
A lot of what people perceive as differences can be traced to slightly different listening circumstances. When you get up from your chair and then sit down again, your head is in a slightly different position than last time. With reflections from room surfaces, comb filtering produces varied frequency response just millimeters apart in space. So getting up, changing a cable and sitting down again, you are hearing a different frequency response because the nulls and peaks have moved to different groups of frequencies, due to your ears being a few millimeters different in position than your last sitting. Comb filtering can result in peaks and nulls of 20+ dB, so this is significant.
The other factor is auditory memory. How long can you remember a complex musical passage and how it sounded? It is common knowledge that our auditory memory is very short.
Ultimately, if you can measure the signal at the input of your cable and at the output, invert one measurement and sum them together and get a perfect null (zero voltage), then the cable is 'perfect' and no audible difference is possible with any more money, unless the more expensive cable carries a poor facsimile of the signal.
The Emperor has no clothes, and many "high end" shops see wealthy audiophiles as fools to be exploited. Is it ego or foolishness? You decide.
High end cables are the modern day version of the Emperor's New Clothes.
What is needed for speaker cable is the ability to carry enough current to maintain the damping factor from the amplifier to the speakers.
Interconnects need to maintain reasonable capacitance per foot, have good shielding to keep out stray noise and preferably gold plated contacts to prevent corrosion from causing intermittents/distortion due to diode effects over many years of use.
I find that a good Monoprice type cable is super-adequate. I can hear a difference between Radio Shack cables that come with a VCR/CD player and Monoprice, but only on extreme dynamic range source material and at elevated volume levels, such as with my Ultimate Fireworks Blu-ray, where the dynamic range exceeds 85dB. Cheap cables have a higher noise floor, particularly hum. When I installed the Monoprice RCA cables, the hum level went down about 2.5dB.
A lot of what people perceive as differences can be traced to slightly different listening circumstances. When you get up from your chair and then sit down again, your head is in a slightly different position than last time. With reflections from room surfaces, comb filtering produces varied frequency response just millimeters apart in space. So getting up, changing a cable and sitting down again, you are hearing a different frequency response because the nulls and peaks have moved to different groups of frequencies, due to your ears being a few millimeters different in position than your last sitting. Comb filtering can result in peaks and nulls of 20+ dB, so this is significant.
The other factor is auditory memory. How long can you remember a complex musical passage and how it sounded? It is common knowledge that our auditory memory is very short.
Ultimately, if you can measure the signal at the input of your cable and at the output, invert one measurement and sum them together and get a perfect null (zero voltage), then the cable is 'perfect' and no audible difference is possible with any more money, unless the more expensive cable carries a poor facsimile of the signal.
The Emperor has no clothes, and many "high end" shops see wealthy audiophiles as fools to be exploited. Is it ego or foolishness? You decide.
Then you'd like the cables Joe Cohen of Lotus audio was using. They were the size of sewer pipe
In keeping with the spirit of the opening remark, maybe they were sewer pipes!
Thanks for the insult and making it personal. I find it interesting if given enough time somewone will insult you if they disagree with you on a topic.
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