Are the expert forums successful?

[andy_]

Thanks for the welcome and responses. Is it fair to say that the more senior/founding members are a bit keener on the expert forums than the more junior/general members?

Are long threads viable repositories of knowledge? They have little structure making them difficult to browse and search and they usually contain large amounts of noise which hinders the activities.

What does an expert get out of the process? As has been mentioned, marketing for their products and services is an important and probably dominant reason in many instances. Many would judge this a reasonable price to pay to access expertise and I would generally agree. However, if you are a non-expert I would suggest you are not in good position to distinguish neutrality from effective marketing.

By successful I meant both the experts and the members getting sufficient out of a two way dialogue for it to continue rather than peter out or one side absent themselves. Is there a pattern to the expert forums that have been successful and those that have been less so?

- Is it even possible to be an expert (or is it all a matter of opinion)?
- If so, in what areas of the audio hobby is it possible to be an expert?
- How does one become an expert?

Technical/scientific experts become so by mastering the technical/scientific knowledge in their area. This involves understanding how parts of knowledge build on other parts in order to spot the gaps that need filling. Since all scientific knowledge has to predict the outcome of experiments perhaps the key to recognizing a technical expert is that they can tell you what will happen and give simple understandable reasons why.

Expertise that is not based on scientific reasoning is a lot less straightforward to recognise or even accept for some. This is particularly so if the subject area gives the appearance of being scientific/technical. A good non-audiophile example here would be homeopathy.

What makes expertise interesting in the home audio area is the strong shift away from a scientific or technical basis after the end of the stereo boom. For example, what does it involve to be an expert in audiophile cables?

- How frequently is the expert correct?
- How frequently is the expert wrong?

It depends on your belief system and the subject area of the expert. To continue the audiophile cable example, to some such an expert would be considered a rogue or nutter and to be wrong or irrelevant all the time but to others the expertise would be accepted and often followed.

- What are the blind spots of the expert?

This is obviously going to vary from expert to expert. A common one for the experts from the scientific/technical side is to consider audiophile beliefs that are wrong in a scientific sense to be bad. And on the other side, the most obvious blind spot for those that genuinely hold invalid scientific beliefs (rather than just claim to hold them in order to shift expensive luxury hardware) is that the established scientific knowledge might be right.

 

[Steve williams]

Well Andy

of our Expert forums that are active now kindly show me where in your opinion any of our experts have marketed their services to sell to our membership

If you can tell me either what it takes to be an expert in cables or better yet who is an expert on cables, we might consider it however the glaring absence of an Expert Forum on cables should speak volumes as to why there isn't

We have tried, as we grow, to provide something for everyone here. The resounding number of affirmatives to your question should also suggest we are doing something correct.

As to other concerns about your question I can say in clear conscience that there is no member of our Expert panel who is marketing and selling their services here.

Technical/scientific experts become so by mastering the technical/scientific knowledge in their area. This involves understanding how parts of knowledge build on other parts in order to spot the gaps that need filling. Since all scientific knowledge has to predict the outcome of experiments perhaps the key to recognizing a technical expert is that they can tell you what will happen and give simple understandable reasons why.

I agree and that is why each and every member of our Panel has been selected

- How frequently is the expert correct?
- How frequently is the expert wrong?

You tell me ??

 

[RBFC]

andy,

The expert forums are a resource for BOTH junior and senior members. We have had many members register here in order to ask a single question or simply read these forums. The information is for all, regardless of length of membership here. I don't know of any expert on our forum who has demonstrably "marketed" their products, either. As an aside, I know that some of our experts have offered discounts to forum members on their products when contacted via Private Messaging here. NO member is coerced into using the products of any of our experts, and if you are interested, GEEZ, you might get a discount! Recently, in Art Noxon's forum, he offered to analyze the response of members' rooms for free. It was actually a member here who ASKED,"What do I need to improve the sound of the room?" There was no attempt to sell us anything. This is a testament to the integrity of the chosen expert members.

If you read many of the expert forums, there are references to scientific white papers on various audio topics and we have a dedicated technical library section that is noise-free. It is the nature of discussion that the focus of topics occasionally drifts a bit. After all, we are a community of individuals, a group of extended friends, who share an interest in this hobby.

So, I'm a bit confused about your motives in making this discussion your only input here.... Are you interested in audio? You are free to read and participate in any of the forums here you wish. You are not required to participate in those forums, or buy anything from the experts within. The current topic seems more challenging than needed, considering there is no obligation on your part.

Lee

 

[amirm]

However, if you are a non-expert I would suggest you are not in good position to distinguish neutrality from effective marketing.

You have an easy tool here as opposed to other forums: the expert is clearly identified. You can choose to ignore some or all of what he has to say.

Note also that we have many experts who comment on other forums. So outright misinformation does't last long whether an expert says it or an ordinary member.

Is there a pattern to the expert forums that have been successful and those that have been less so?

An expert forum is a bit like a blog. If you keep it updated and fresh, it works. If the expert doesn't contribute or not often, then it is less so.

- Is it even possible to be an expert (or is it all a matter of opinion)?

Of course.

- If so, in what areas of the audio hobby is it possible to be an expert?

Too many to list.

- How does one become an expert?

Person gets nominated and we all check out their reputation.

Technical/scientific experts become so by mastering the technical/scientific knowledge in their area. This involves understanding how parts of knowledge build on other parts in order to spot the gaps that need filling. Since all scientific knowledge has to predict the outcome of experiments perhaps the key to recognizing a technical expert is that they can tell you what will happen and give simple understandable reasons why.

You are over-thinking this . This not the CDC or some formal research organization. We are running a forum. The experts here simply need to have deep area of expertise in an area of interest to our members. Most times we value experience gained from working in the industry -- something our members generally do not get to learn about if they work outside of that field.

The above is important as most companies have a policy *against* their employees participating in forums. When you ask them why, they talk about the terrible way they are treated on such forums with non-respectful environment. So without some sort of forum like we have created, it is very difficult to get industry experts to participate.

For example, what does it involve to be an expert in audiophile cables?

A senior employee of Belden working on audio cable design.

To continue the audiophile cable example, to some such an expert would be considered a rogue or nutter and to be wrong or irrelevant all the time but to others the expertise would be accepted and often followed.

When a judge gets accepted to supreme court, you and I don't get asked to approve it . By the same token, a group of us decide who should be an expert or not. You may or may not choose to accept that outcome, but rest assured that we don't allow "nutters" to get the seat. If we make a mistake, we will correct it. But there is a process to it. It is not self-appointment.

And on the other side, the most obvious blind spot for those that genuinely hold invalid scientific beliefs (rather than just claim to hold them in order to shift expensive luxury hardware) is that the established scientific knowledge might be right.

In general, we do not bring people as experts because of their beliefs. We bring them because they have a solid experience in a field of interest to us. Invariably, they also bring opinions about audio with them. The expectation in their respected expert area though is bring knowledge, not a pile of opinion they cannot back.

 

[andy_]

> I don't know of any expert on our forum who has demonstrably "marketed" their products

I think there may be some confusion about what marketing means. If a reader sees a post from a person associated with a company they have never heard of before this is a form of marketing for that company. The reader has now heard of the company. If the reader responds positively to what is in the post then that has created a positive association for the company. This is good marketing. On the other hand, if the reader responds negatively it may be a poor form of marketing despite the old adage that there is no such thing as bad publicity.

There also seems to be an assumption that marketing is a bad thing for the forum. If an expert gives useful advice and helps raise the profile of their company in the eyes of potential customers then it would seem to be a win for the expert and a win for the forum.

> So, I'm a bit confused about your motives in making this discussion your only input here.... Are
> you interested in audio?

There are almost uncountable numbers of audio/audiophile sites on the web and the expert forums seem to be one of the main ways this site tries to distinguish itself from others. It would seem odd for someone new to the site not to take an interest in them particularly if they recognise the uncomfortable relationship audiophiles often have with technical experts because of many unshared beliefs about cables, valves, sound perception, etc... It is noticeable that room acoustics is one of the smoothest running topics and is also one where a technical expert's view and a typical audiophile's view (if there is such a thing) differ least. Audiophile products like pebbles in jars, resonating bowls, wiggly hat stands, etc... have not really taken hold in the manner of, say, exotic audiophile cables.

I have a modest interest in audio and audiophiles, technical acoustics is a significant part of the day job and I will probably make the odd post now and again on topics that interest me.

 

[Steve williams]

Andy

IMO after reading your 3 posts here at WBF, I question your motives here as a member and would suggest to you that perhaps WBF is not the site to satisfy your audiophile needs and that you perhaps would be better served by moving on and finding those sites. If however you decide that you you would like to post in areas of the forum other than here please feel free to do so. Short of that if you have any further questions or suggestions re our forum I would welcome these by way of PM