Audio Magic Nano-Liquid Fuses---mikey likey :)

[RBFC]

I mentioned measurements of the fuses themselves. I have no doubt that Mike is hearing something and it would be good to know if the change is due to basic electrical performance parameters. It would also be good to be assured that specialty fuses will properly perform their "protective" duties. Imagine that measurements showed a distinct performance increase using the new fuse. Then, Dartzeel (and others) begin to spec those fuses for their electronics, etc. This is one pathway by which audio components have been improved: find a problem and solve it.

Beyond that, only Mike is intimately familiar with the sound of his system. Therefore, it would be logical that he would be the most likely candidate to pick up on small changes to the sound.

Lee

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike

if you are referring to me I can assure you that this is not the case. AsI said I am fascinated by the whole fuse discussion. I am not a measurement guy but I have to in all seriousness suggest this when one talks about directionality affecting the sound as this makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

Mike, I used to have "ultimate tweak" under my signature for years but I found the hard way that most of the things to which I espoused were probably not responsible for any change(s) in my system. I too like to use my ears in making a decision and have never once engaged in a DBT (as you have and learned the reality of your results). Simply put I don't know the answer. Logic and science for me suggests that these fuses should make absolutely no difference. I look at Frantz post regarding your comments in the bass wherein he suggests that the science of such will not change the bass response according to his back ground.Making sweeping and bold statements will certainly allow for members to challenge the post for which you, myself and any member would certainly do the same if they felt such a sweeping statement defied all science.

Again, I don't know the answer but as I posted here many months ago when similar thread topics on premium fuses arose, I did speak to Vladimir Lamm about switching out fuses on my preamp and amp.....his exact words to me were "forget it, not necessary, no difference".

Long and the short of it Mike is that I remain a skeptic but not so much that I won't try these in my system for my benefit. Bruce said he heard no difference in your friend's system and others make the point that speaker adjustment could certainly be the main reason that changes were heard. I am merely questioning points made in your post and asking myself "how so and how can this be explained.?"

Steve,

your rationalizations don't change my view that there too much focus on why a poster's listening impressions are not valid. it's absolutely wrong but a reflection of the balance of who is here. i accept that as how things are.....but i don't like it one bit.

i could give a whit about what Vladimir thinks about fuses. i care what my ears say. and when i share my opinion i just don't feel i need to wade thru a mine-field of crap all the time. when it gets to be too much i'll bail. that is what i can do about it and i realize that. but just like i get attacked i have the right to speak up.

and did you even read my response to Bruce regarding his experience? and then when Bruce asked for contact info to get the fuses......sheesh!

 

[Steve williams]

Mike

IMO you are over reacting. As well I feel Bruce's query as to where to buy these was identical to mine but that doesn't make us believers, merely interested and our impressions may very well be the same as yours.

As to what Vladimir said I take it as being meaningful. What would you do if Herve told you that the use of fuses in his gear doesn't make an ounce of difference.

 

[edorr]

I dont know about that. If this is whats best forum, and we change the title of the forum to whats best according to myself, then fine, what you say, while true as you sayit, would be fine.

And I doubt anybody here denies that our ear/brain interface is what we want to be happy and please us,

however,

IMO there needs to be some review and discussion about whats best and to even reach that conclusion some sort of criteria are needed. Whats best is a challenging thing. Whats the best fuse then, we got about 5 brands out there now....

The criteria is simple. What sounds best to most subjective observers is best. You then try to bring some objectivity into the discussion by trying to understand which parameters explain this outcome to improve understanding of audio reproduction. So first you listen to a PCM and dsd and decide what sounds "best". If vast majority agrees one way or the other, the consensus is subjective best. In many cases no such consensus will ever exist of course. Next you try to understand the structural differences between the two to explain the preference, which will include measurement of some sort.

Trying to define "best" objectively in audio is completely illusive. It is like a wine forum discussing the chemical composition of wines to ascertain which is best, and do some tasting to confirm the findings. Sure, if a liquid has the ph value of vinegar it is not a contender for best wine. But comparing chemistry between a two grand cru Bordeaux is a waste of time.

 

[FrantzM]

your perspective on whether the 'balance' of skepticism to respect for listening impressions on WBF is correct is not shared by me, and i suspect not shared by others as well.

i get really tired of all the angst directed at listening impressions to 'prove it' or 'measure it' or 'see your shrink' in one fashion or another. obviously; since i'm still here the community is more valuable to me than that irritation.....but only by a little. clearly one of the forum administrators is in this thread calling me out for measurments and testing. so this situation is not changing....and he's supposedly the 'subjective' one. it's a big part of the dna here.

and if we start down the road of 'some sort of criteria are needed' i'm outahere.

Mike

Before you get outta here. It is important to me to say this:

I can't see the angst. You presented an observation. Some (I amongst them) included doubted it. I also saw the doubts as polite questioning and skepticism: You claimed you heard a lot of things when you changed the fuse in your Bass Tower amps. This is a discussion forum. isn't it fair to ask you to verify your assertions?

Let me go to a different point. How did your system advance? Has it been linear? From one change to the other, constant improvement? For me in my numerous years in this hobby, ( I started around 8 I think when I was given the proverbial keys to the car: My father allowing me to turn the system on and cue my own LPs ). It has been a lot of sideway moves and some even backward, those too often expensive. One reason why many people discuss their findings with their friends is to ascertain. We all , I don't care how good your hearing is, have thought we heard improvements when all we heard was a different sound to which we quickly grew tired. Often our friends less vested in our system than us are or were the first to point this out. One reason that I ask of my friend to be blunt. I do prefer those who bluntly spew the truth to my face rather than those too polite to tell me the blatant truth. I don't want my circle of friends to become an echo chamber.. Come to think of it, nor would I want my listening room to be that

I could be wrong but this thread has been polite so far and some (me included) have asked you to verify. Your choice and right to refuse but once a claim is made their is an implicit if not duty but invitation to sustain it... to back it up. IME the WBF as a community such have been striving to stay polite and respectful but pointed, inquisitive and educative (we have been much less successful there, another topic). I don't think the WBF should become a chorus of "Yes", "This is great" , "thank you for your observation"-type of forum. The knowledge and breadth of audio horizons of our constituents are too vast to allow such.

I welcome yours and others continuing observations and contributions. I will also continue to debate them. If doing that I cross the line of propriety, politeness, conventions or protocol, please accept my apologies in advance. Point me to those instances, posts or the threads and I will try to correct. In the meantime you claims will be challenged as you have challenged others with unusual claims and it is IMO all good!!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike

IMO you are over reacting. As well I feel Bruce's query as to where to buy these was identical to mine but that doesn't make us believers, merely interested and our impressions may very well be the same as yours.

ok, allow me to help you out here. please read this post. it explains that Bruce got testing for a grounding device confused with the fuses. and he just bought some of the fuses.

As to what Vladimir said I take it as being meaningful. What would you do if Herve told you that the use of fuses in his gear doesn't make an ounce of difference.

i've never asked Herve about fuses. obviously; my amps and preamp don't need them. i would expect that the stereo NHB-108 would likely get a boost with these fuses but unless i tried it who knows.

in general; manufacturers don't want customers to be messing around with non standard bits and pieces with their carefully designed products. when i told Jonathan about my 'fuse' experience he was concerned (rightfully) about this fuse causing a problem of some sort.

and no way manufactures have heard everything. how can they know about how good these fuses are?

finally; every circuit is different. so fuses may or may not effect every curcuit the same.

 

[Steve williams]

Frantz, your comment reminds me of my mantra in this hobby when I change something in my system. I ask myself, "did I hear something better or did I just hear something different? If better, how so?"

I agree that this could be a form of coloration as do you

 

[Orb]

Mike

IMO you are over reacting. As well I feel Bruce's query as to where to buy these was identical to mine but that doesn't make us believers, merely interested and our impressions may very well be the same as yours.

As to what Vladimir said I take it as being meaningful. What would you do if Herve told you that the use of fuses in his gear doesn't make an ounce of difference.

Steve,
I can understand why he is reacting due to some of what has been posted in this thread and validity raised on ones experience even when they express it is anecdotal.
In that case why bother sharing any anecdotal experiences, and those that do share mention doing DBT never realise that they probably messed up its implementation and their results are as meaningless as anecdotal post.
This is coming from someone who strongly follows and agrees bias and other cognitive challenges do occur.
The case is, if someone is not happy and if the anecdotal experience can be replicated (in this case it can with other "high end" fuses), then they should do their own listen and contribute their own experience to the thread rather than it being a hypothetical discussion against someone who did take time albeit anecdotally.

I am not entirely convinced myself but value and enjoy reading anecdotal experiences such as from Mike, but I am willing to give it a go and report back at some point my own experiences rather than argue the validity of ones experience - I agree it is right to raise or highlight some relevant points but it does not take 7+ pages like we have seen.

I could be pretty anal about validity and in nearly audition thread asked how they overcame speaker-location perception bias.
No-one ever does take this into account and yet was indicated in one of the results it does exist by Harman research on speaker research and listeners bias.
I hope this is not coming across strong, just if one starts to question/validity of anecdotal experience this also covers nearly every auditioning-experience on here whether speakers or electronics and could make most redundant.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike

Before you get outta here. It is important to me to say this:

I can't see the angst. You presented an observation. Some (I amongst them) included doubted it. I also saw the doubts as polite questioning and skepticism: You claimed you heard a lot of things when you changed the fuse in your Bass Tower amps. This is a discussion forum. isn't it fair to ask you to verify your assertions?

Let me go to a different point. How did your system advance? Has it been linear? From one change to the other, constant improvement? For me in my numerous years in this hobby, around 8 I think when I was given the proverbial keys to the car: My father allowing me to turn the system on and cue my own LPs ). It has been a lot of sideway moves and some even backward those too often expensive. One reason why many people discuss their findings with their friends is to ascertain. We all , I don't care how good your hearing is, have thought we heard improvements when all we heard was a different sound to which we quickly grew tired. Often our friends less vested in our system than us are or were the first to point this out. One reason that I ask of my friend to be blunt. I do prefer those who bluntly spew the truth to my face rather than those too polite to tell me the blatant truth. I don't want my circle of friends to become an echo chamber.. Come to think nor would I want my listening room to be that

I could be wrong but this thread has been polite so far and some (me included) have asked you to verify. Your choice and right to refuse but once a claim is made their is an implicit if not duty but invitation to sustain it... to back it up. IME the WBF as a community such have been striving to stay polite and respectful but pointed, inquisitive and educative (we have been much less successful there, another topic). I don't think the WBF should become a chorus of "Yes", "This is great" , "thank you for your observation"-type of forum. The knowledge and breadth of audio horizons of our constituents are too vast to allow such.

I welcome yours and others continuing observations and contributions. I will also continue to debate them. If doing that I cross the line of propriety, politeness, conventions or protocol, please accept my apologies in advance. Point me to those instances, posts or the threads and I will try to correct. In the meantime you claims will be challenged as you have challenged others with unusual claims and it is IMO all good!!

Frantz,

i never mentioned anything about anyone not being respectful or polite.....not sure where you got that impression. only that a fair amount of responses focused on how to prove or validate the impressions.....which irritates me.....and that is my problem to solve.

understand my posts here are a reaction to this post by tomelex. i did not just decide to throw a tizzy.

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz, your comment reminds me of my mantra in this hobby when I change something in my system. I ask myself, "did I hear something better or did I just hear something different? If better, how so?"

I agree that this could be a form of coloration as do you

Uh... Steve I have changed fuse in my systems back then and the results were not perceptible. In a speaker. In the crossover circuit I could say a soft but unconvinced "maybe". In the bass tower of a seriously designed amplifier tuned to the (to repeat myself) specific drivers and working in the low bass under 100 Hz. Allow me please to be doubtful.

 

[Steve williams]

and no way manufactures have heard everything. how can they know about how good these fuses are?

Well I might agree in part about this but not in whole. Do you not think that a manufacturer will do R&D in all areas of production. I do trust Vlad's comments to me as I am sure you would as well if Herve said the same to you.

My bet is that because we started with a $60 premium fuse and now have a $100 nano liquid fuse, how far behind could the next generation $200 fuse be which creates an even better sound?

Caveat emptor

 

[Orb]

Well I might agree in part about this but not in whole. Do you not think that a manufacturer will do R&D in all areas of production. I do trust Vlad's comments to me as I am sure you would as well if Herve said the same to you.

My bet is that because we started with a $60 premium fuse and now have a $100 nano liquid fuse, how far behind could the next generation $200 fuse be which creates an even better sound?

Caveat emptor

Mike, did you come from stock fuses or a premium fuse?
This is an interesting point, because if they do make any differences is there a large one between premium and these nano liquid.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Well I might agree in part about this but not in whole. Do you not think that a manufacturer will do R&D in all areas of production. I do trust Vlad's comments to me as I am sure you would as well if Herve said the same to you.

My bet is that because we started with a $60 premium fuse and now have a $100 nano liquid fuse, how far behind could the next generation $200 fuse be which creates an even better sound?

Caveat emptor

if the $200 fuse is audibly better enough to justify it's price relative to the increase in performance in one's system then what's the problem?

that's the way things work. the market passes judgement on the price justification.

when you first got your Lamm ML2.1's if someone suggested to you that in a few years you would buy $130k Lamm amps that would be enough better to justify the difference what would you have said?

and when you did hear the performance difference did you measure it? did you care at all what anyone else thought about how it sounded? did you allow yourself to believe your ears?

 

[Steve williams]

Mike we are still on the same page. If what you say is correct I would have thought you would have been all over the Tech Das Force TT. If truly you believe that there will be a linear steady improvement in fuse development then I guess we are all in and what's the problem as you say

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, did you come from stock fuses or a premium fuse?
This is an interesting point, because if they do make any differences is there a large one between premium and these nano liquid.
Cheers
Orb

this type of question is complicated to answer.

short answer is i had the stock fuses and had not tried any other premium fuses in that spot.

my pain threshold is not high enough to slog thru various levels of stuff like fuses or duplex outlets or similar gear to prove to myself that the lower version is 'just as good'. i will rely on someone who has done that work to tell me which product is best. they know i will want the best and are anxious for me to hear the maximum value in my system to be able to feel good about my purchase.

in this case the fuse was first recommended by Darin, the local Audio Club President and a credible guy, to my friend Andrew for his Evolution Acoustics MM3 speakers, which use the same bass drivers and amplifiers as my speakers use. Andrew loved them and when i visited i heard what they were doing, so i puchased them.

if someone i did not know in any way recommended these fuses, and i had not heard what they were doing in similar gear, my perspective would have started out differently. hard to say what i might have done. depends on the credibility of who told me about them.

 

[mep]

So far we know of two people who have bought the subject fuses and they are both quite happy with the results even though the placebo police are out in full force looking to make an arrest. Has anyone on this forum bought the subject fuses and not been happy with them?

The thing I find interesting is that Bruce went to a friend's house and moved his speakers around and his listening position and obviously changed the sound in this guy's room from the listening chair. Mike goes over the guy's house and notices the sound of his system has improved. When Mike asks the guy what he did to his system, he doesn't really mention the work that Bruce did but instead tells Mike about the new fuses he bought. This sort of tells me the guy thought the fuses had more impact on the change in his system than the work that Bruce did. Mike is impressed enough with the changes he heard that he buys the same brand fuses and thinks he hears a significant and meaningful improvement and shares that story with the rest of us here.

It would be interesting to hear other's perceptions that have tried these same brand fuses.

 

[Orb]

Thanks Mike,
so some could try those specific fuses or another premium fuse, although this changes the context from the specific model you experienced to a more general one.
Thanks
Orb

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike we are still on the same page.

good.

If what you say is correct I would have thought you would have been all over the Tech Das Force TT.

i've yet to hear any feedback that would cause me to desire the Tech DAS tt beyond what i now have. the only feedback is from people who either sell it or are associated in business with those who do.

the quiet about it from CES was deafening. i'm sure it's likely among the top level of tt's. at some point there could be feedback that might cause me to view it beyond that. my mind is open....but i'm not lusting after one....and am completely satisfied where i'm at.

sincerely i do hope it's a step forward in performance and it's always great when the reference gets moved. am i skeptical? maybe just a little.

If truly you believe that there will be a linear steady improvement in fuse development then I guess we are all in and what's the problem as you say

i really have no opinion about where fuse improvement will go. three week ago fuses were not part of my thinking. and soon i'll forget i even have these ones i just got.

i'll always be open to small things that are easy to try and not too expensive. if they bring me closer to the music then i'm all in.

if better fuses do come along and can justify the cost then i'll probably get them. i'm certianly more open now than i had been.

 

[Fast/Forward]

Do the sceptics of the fuse performance (sound quality) being altered by it's internal construction of components in this thread also believe that electronic tubes (another device that has electrical current passing through a vacuum) internal construction can not affect the signal? Tube rollers everywhere will want to know that they are wasting mega bucks on NOS Western Electric 300Bs.

 

[treitz3]

^^^ Nice. ^^^

Good afternoon, gentlemen. I will say this, I am going to order one of these fuses and try it out on my system. I'm a firm believer that everything effects everything and while I haven't tried any premium fuses yet, I figure I might as well start with something that is as controversial as the fuses used in this thread. Why? Well, all of the responses have honestly got my curiosity up. With that said, I wonder if I should even bother posting the results of my observations because I have no intentions of ever doing any A/B testing, measurements or scientific write ups. If I were to offer my observations, they would be presented to all of you just as Mike has presented his observations.

Many folks have posted their observations of different recordings, observations of amplifiers and plenty of observations of speakers and I don't see the kinds of responses Mike has gotten in this thread with regards to a fuse. It is appreciative to have folks wanting to have some numbers, measurements and whatnot when such observations are made but it should not fall solely on Mike's shoulders to "prove" anything to us. If those who want measurements need them to verify what the fuses can do, then they should feel free to go out and purchase them themselves and perform their own measurements.

There is another thread on the WBF that have many observations of A/C outlets and I even posted my observations of what an upgrade to an A/C outlet did to my system. Not one person chimed back in and laid it on my shoulder [or anyone else's for that matter] that I was "responsible" for providing numbers and measurements to help the validity of my observations. This thread and topic should be no different.

Tom