Audio Note UK Jinro - Any Good

[Bling23]

Hi all,

Has anyone any experience with AN UK Jinro.I would be keen to hear your thoughts, any comparisons of SET apps etc. I currently have Tonsmeister Meishu phono and was thinking of getting a Jinro. I use the phono of the Meishu and MM IQ3 from AN and also a network DAC for streaming, AN E SPE speakers.

Thanks
Sean

 

[Zero000]

On An/Es they are very good.

Amperex, Telefunken or United Electronics tubes they will be better than PQ will sell you by default IMHO.

They will be OK on the better Chinese 211 copies.

 

[GHasley]

On An/Es they are very good.

Amperex, Telefunken or United Electronics tubes they will be better than PQ will sell you by default IMHO.

They will be OK on the better Chinese 211 copies.

Those tubes are becoming challenging to find a nice matched pair. NOS/WWII era GE's and RCA's are great too and Audio Note's new production(made to order by PSVane) 4242e's are also quite good. Search out a dealer with a Jinro, you won't be sorry. Where are you located? Mike Kay of Ardio Archon in the Chicago area had a Jinro and the amp only version of the Tomei in his demo room the last time I spoke to him.

 

[Zero000]

Those tubes are becoming challenging to find a nice matched pair. NOS/WWII era GE's and RCA's are great too and Audio Note's new production(made to order by PSVane) 4242e's are also quite good. Search out a dealer with a Jinro, you won't be sorry. Where are you located? Mike Kay of Ardio Archon in the Chicago area had a Jinro and the amp only version of the Tomei in his demo room the last time I spoke to him.

Tomei is a decent amp. I know PQ a little bit and a friend of his I used to meet up with gave him a lot of his amps to try out. I have never been able to work out why that is the case, but hey. Friends are friends and there was obviously something audiophile going on there.

But the choice of 211s is paramount and my current quad of Amperex needs more spares for the next decade or two primarily because I think for me they are one of the finest last stage before speaker amplification devices ever made.

 

[mtemur]

You started with the top tube amps and slowly going down the ladder by asking if they’re any good. Their being good or not is directly linked how good you’re in this hobby, how seasoned, ready to spend for additional stuff like cables and tubes etc.

All the amps you asked about are good if you can make them sing.

 

[Richard Austen]

Well, the Jinro/Tomei/Ongaku are all great amps - and the Meishu Tonmeister and P3 Tonmeister may be the best 300B amps around - certainly the best I have heard. But they only come with stock readily available tubes. Many other smaller boutique brands that only sell a handful of amplifiers a year will often sell with top-of-the-shelf sounding NOS tubes that cost a lot to replace. So often the comparisons are not exactly equal - AN with their $300 300b from China VS amp B with their $4000 a pair WE tubes is not apples to apples.

You might think this is simple is the Jinro better than the Meishu but the Jinro is around triple the price and has no phono stage or truly active preamp on board (it can be used as a power amp and the volume control as a secondary attenuator (like the P3 Tonmeister). The Meishu as a modified M2 preamp stage on board which makes it separates in one box).

I am in a similar predicament - I love the sound of the Meishu Tonmeister but I already own the M6 and Empress Silver monoblocks (2a3) level 3. I am currently reviewing the P3 Tonmeister. The Jinro being a 211 sounds better IMO with the M6 feeding in than it does on its own. That's my issue with the Jinro - it sounds better to me with an active preamp so the Jinro is now way more expensive than a Tonmeister AND you need an M3 or M5 or M6 to really get the most out of it. So now you're pushing like 6 times the price of the Meishu.

What you may not know is that Audio Note has just released two new 300B integrated amps above the Meishu - a level 4 Konzertmeister which uses a modified M6 Phono stage (this would be equivalent to the Tomei 211) and a level 5 version Kappelmeister (M8 Phono stage) which would be the 300B equivalent of the Ongaku.

I am considering either a move from my M6/Empress to Konzertmeister or trading my Empress monoblocks for a P3 Konzertmeister. The Empress is great but it is a slight preference for what I perceive to be more warmth and body from the Tonmeister Galahad power supply than the leaner parallel 2a3 sound.

The Jinro 211 is more robust - it is a more powerful amplifier but like all of these tubes - I have found that each of the tube types offers a sound the others don't quite muster. Take the Paladin - this is their 45 - it has a kind of sound that is beguiling - it is relatively affordable in AN land - it is also level 3 but it has that somethin somethin I like more than the other amps they make. But at 2 watts - it is hampered in some ways (umm volume/headroom) but it's also worth a listen. I am trying to get one in to try.

Anyway for the ultimate in AN discussions with plenty of owners and dealers - try here https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...uk-all-things-audio-note-uk-part-two.1144366/

 

[Bling23]

Well, the Jinro/Tomei/Ongaku are all great amps - and the Meishu Tonmeister and P3 Tonmeister may be the best 300B amps around - certainly the best I have heard. But they only come with stock readily available tubes. Many other smaller boutique brands that only sell a handful of amplifiers a year will often sell with top-of-the-shelf sounding NOS tubes that cost a lot to replace. So often the comparisons are not exactly equal - AN with their $300 300b from China VS amp B with their $4000 a pair WE tubes is not apples to apples.

You might think this is simple is the Jinro better than the Meishu but the Jinro is around triple the price and has no phono stage or truly active preamp on board (it can be used as a power amp and the volume control as a secondary attenuator (like the P3 Tonmeister). The Meishu as a modified M2 preamp stage on board which makes it separates in one box).

I am in a similar predicament - I love the sound of the Meishu Tonmeister but I already own the M6 and Empress Silver monoblocks (2a3) level 3. I am currently reviewing the P3 Tonmeister. The Jinro being a 211 sounds better IMO with the M6 feeding in than it does on its own. That's my issue with the Jinro - it sounds better to me with an active preamp so the Jinro is now way more expensive than a Tonmeister AND you need an M3 or M5 or M6 to really get the most out of it. So now you're pushing like 6 times the price of the Meishu.

What you may not know is that Audio Note has just released two new 300B integrated amps above the Meishu - a level 4 Konzertmeister which uses a modified M6 Phono stage (this would be equivalent to the Tomei 211) and a level 5 version Kappelmeister (M8 Phono stage) which would be the 300B equivalent of the Ongaku.

I am considering either a move from my M6/Empress to Konzertmeister or trading my Empress monoblocks for a P3 Konzertmeister. The Empress is great but it is a slight preference for what I perceive to be more warmth and body from the Tonmeister Galahad power supply than the leaner parallel 2a3 sound.

The Jinro 211 is more robust - it is a more powerful amplifier but like all of these tubes - I have found that each of the tube types offers a sound the others don't quite muster. Take the Paladin - this is their 45 - it has a kind of sound that is beguiling - it is relatively affordable in AN land - it is also level 3 but it has that somethin somethin I like more than the other amps they make. But at 2 watts - it is hampered in some ways (umm volume/headroom) but it's also worth a listen. I am trying to get one in to try.

Anyway for the ultimate in AN discussions with plenty of owners and dealers - try here https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...uk-all-things-audio-note-uk-part-two.1144366/

Hi Richard,
Thank you for this reply and great information, great info to have. I have my MTP swapped out with WE 300b valves and to be it honest it sounds really good. I am in agreement with you for my level the Jinro with a pre of the level of M6 is multiples of cost above MTP For me that is too saucy for my pocket. My next thing is to fill my AN stands with lead shot they are empty atm and Martin says this will improve the bass response, i'm hopefully. Do you like your TT3 I have the same with IQ3 with PSU 1, Id love to try the PSU 3 or someday move to SUT and IO. The MTP is a very nice sounding amp the best i've had I should be very happy but you always look at the next level. The Konzertmeister sounds very interesting I wonder with it cost a small island though , at the end of the day all the AN gear sounds great and we should be grateful to experience it. Thanks again Sean.

 

[geetee1972]

I came very close to buying a Meishu Tonmeister, as far even as paying the money to the dealer for the whole system. I think at the time the new retail price was £10k (this was only back in 2020!), but even then, when I heard what else my budget would buy if you stepped away from the path of well known audio brands and looked at more esoteric, low volume specialist import stuff, it was an easy decision to cancel the order and go elsewhere.
I think AN (UK) make great sounding equipment but my goodness they are expensive for their performance. And this is sort of the ball game with hifi kit generally; there's very little poor sounding kit out there, it's all relative to what you pair it with, the room you put it in and the price you pay for that level of performance.
AN prices very high because it's a) a well recognised brand, like Naim, so they can charge more because it will hold its value on the second hand market and b) because it offers easy access to a style of sound and presentation that's not otherwise easy to access in the mainstream hifi market. Once you hear it, you want it.
I was lucky that i got connected to a great dealer who specialises in low powered, pure class A systems (speakers, amps and DACs), that perform two to three times better at the same price as AN (I knowt that better is subjective but beyond a certain point it's very obvious what is simply an improvement versus what is subjectively about stylistic differences in a sideways step; this was easily the former), but the downside is that my system has almost no resale value; to illustrate the Silvercore 833 monoblocs I have cost £12k new but when I explored selling them (under duress - I managed to avoid that outcome and chose to sell my car instead!) the best ready offer I had was £3k.
If you pay £14k now for a Tonmeister (really? £14k!! really?) you'll easily get two thirds of that back on resale.
Have you thought about Thomas Mayer? You can get 211, 2a3 and 300b amps from him, which won't be cheap, but they will wipe the floor with AN pound for pound.

 

[Bling23]

I came very close to buying a Meishu Tonmeister, as far even as paying the money to the dealer for the whole system. I think at the time the new retail price was £10k (this was only back in 2020!), but even then, when I heard what else my budget would buy if you stepped away from the path of well known audio brands and looked at more esoteric, low volume specialist import stuff, it was an easy decision to cancel the order and go elsewhere.
I think AN (UK) make great sounding equipment but my goodness they are expensive for their performance. And this is sort of the ball game with hifi kit generally; there's very little poor sounding kit out there, it's all relative to what you pair it with, the room you put it in and the price you pay for that level of performance.
AN prices very high because it's a) a well recognised brand, like Naim, so they can charge more because it will hold its value on the second hand market and b) because it offers easy access to a style of sound and presentation that's not otherwise easy to access in the mainstream hifi market. Once you hear it, you want it.
I was lucky that i got connected to a great dealer who specialises in low powered, pure class A systems (speakers, amps and DACs), that perform two to three times better at the same price as AN (I knowt that better is subjective but beyond a certain point it's very obvious what is simply an improvement versus what is subjectively about stylistic differences in a sideways step; this was easily the former), but the downside is that my system has almost no resale value; to illustrate the Silvercore 833 monoblocs I have cost £12k new but when I explored selling them (under duress - I managed to avoid that outcome and chose to sell my car instead!) the best ready offer I had was £3k.
If you pay £14k now for a Tonmeister (really? £14k!! really?) you'll easily get two thirds of that back on resale.
Have you thought about Thomas Mayer? You can get 211, 2a3 and 300b amps from him, which won't be cheap, but they will wipe the floor with AN pound for pound.

Hi ,
Yes you are probably correct pound for pound maybe better options but I agree the resale is an issue. When you think Kondo is a whole other world even compared to AN price wise. No I haven’t heard of Thomas Mayer but will take a look, as a matter of interest how come you wanted to sell ? Thanks for reply

 

[geetee1972]

Hi ,
Yes you are probably correct pound for pound maybe better options but I agree the resale is an issue. When you think Kondo is a whole other world even compared to AN price wise. No I haven’t heard of Thomas Mayer but will take a look, as a matter of interest how come you wanted to sell ? Thanks for reply

I lost my job last October and am a single parent with a mortgage. I had some cover financially but nothing like enough to last me more than a month or two and I knew it was likely to take up to six months to find a new job so I had to raise cash or risk losing my house and my kids being being hungry. In the end I sold my car and bought a cheap but very reliable car.

I wouldn't necessarily say there are 'better' options, because better depends on what you value and buying from a known and reputable manufacturer where you know full well you will have zero issues and if there are, they will be easily resolved, is worth the premium. Other kit might offer better sound but that's only one aspect.
Thomas Mayer is quite esoteric but well established as a maker of some exceptionally fine amps. Silvercore (which I have) do wonderful tube based amps including 300b, 211 and hybrid designs and are exceptional value for money. Perhaps have a chat with Greg Dryglla at G-Point audio - he was the dealer I worked with and was recommended to him by HeiHei on here (who is a friend of mine and has an exceptional system). Greg is trustworthy and incredibly knowledgeable. His number is 07859 421 189 - just have a conversation with him and see what he suggests. (BTW I am assuming you're UK based?)

 

[Bling23]

I lost my job last October and am a single parent with a mortgage. I had some cover financially but nothing like enough to last me more than a month or two and I knew it was likely to take up to six months to find a new job so I had to raise cash or risk losing my house and my kids being being hungry. In the end I sold my car and bought a cheap but very reliable car.

I wouldn't necessarily say there are 'better' options, because better depends on what you value and buying from a known and reputable manufacturer where you know full well you will have zero issues and if there are, they will be easily resolved, is worth the premium. Other kit might offer better sound but that's only one aspect.
Thomas Mayer is quite esoteric but well established as a maker of some exceptionally fine amps. Silvercore (which I have) do wonderful tube based amps including 300b, 211 and hybrid designs and are exceptional value for money. Perhaps have a chat with Greg Dryglla at G-Point audio - he was the dealer I worked with and was recommended to him by HeiHei on here (who is a friend of mine and has an exceptional system). Greg is trustworthy and incredibly knowledgeable. His number is 07859 421 189 - just have a conversation with him and see what he suggests. (BTW I am assuming you're UK based?)

Sorry to hear about the job going south hopefully you can get sorted soon with a better one please god. Thanks for the info and contact details I’ll give a call. I’m in the EU in Ireland so all good on the importation front. I’ll take a look at the silver core
Thanks

 

[geetee1972]

Sorry to hear about the job going south hopefully you can get sorted soon with a better one please god. Thanks for the info and contact details I’ll give a call. I’m in the EU in Ireland so all good on the importation front. I’ll take a look at the silver core
Thanks

I should have said I lost my job in October 2022 and went back to work March this year so it's all good, but I appreciate your expression of care. Good luck and have fun exploring with Greg.

 

[Richard Austen]

Hi ,
Yes you are probably correct pound for pound maybe better options but I agree the resale is an issue. When you think Kondo is a whole other world even compared to AN price wise. No I haven’t heard of Thomas Mayer but will take a look, as a matter of interest how come you wanted to sell ? Thanks for reply

Here is the problem with the pound for pound X is better - it isn't pound for pound when looking at the NET cost.

I bought my Audio Note OTO Phono SE in 2003 for $1800 and I can sell it today for $2500 - okay inflation but still. It will be hard to convince me that the OTO isn't the best deal in all of audio since every other $1800 amplifier back then would be lucky to get you $700.

It's the same for my old AN J/SPe speakers - paid $2500 for them in 2003 and sold them in 2016 for $2,917. 13 years of happy listening and I got more than I paid back for them. The other speaker I was considering was Reference 3a MM De Capo i which was selling for exactly the same price $2500. I saw a pair secondhand for an "asking price" of $900 and these were in absolute mint condition - my AN J was 7/10 in the least popular colour - black.

Higher priced items won't do as well but as I point out - the difficulty in buying AN used is that it has been around for decades with the same model number - no one else really does that. So when someone posts a 15-year-old Jinro up on the second-hand market they always post the "new list price" of a new Jinro. So let's say the new one is $30,000 - they put up their Jinro for $18k and will come down to say $15k - you say "What a deal I got it for half off" but what you didn't do was go back 15 years and find out what the original Jinro price at the time the owner bought it - the list price back then was maybe $18k and with the negotiation he paid $15k - he got his money back! This only works mind you if you keep your AN gear for at least a decade because the prices keep going up and up and up which means the used prices ALSO keep going up and up and up.

Even my lowly little AX Two - I have been offered double what I paid for it 11 years ago. It was a $650 speaker and I have been offered $1400. Why? Because the new AX Two/II is now priced at $4,000. The old one isn't as good perhaps (I have not heard the new one) but mine is is less than half the price and so it looks like a bargoon.

Part of the reason for the AN UK deal is that most of this comes down to the quality of parts - SET design is SET design and many push pull tube amps come from the same textbooks - they sound different because of the quality of parts.

Once you are forced to buy your Transformer or you have to buy you valve bases from "parts-o-rama" then the parts dictate to you what you can design. At Audio Note - they can design what they want to design and then they can also design their transformers from scratch, their caps and resistors, they design and manufacture their own valve bases, knobs, and casework down to the glue they use to seal their transformers.

This is not - hey let's see what Lundahl makes and design our amp around "whatever" they happen to sell.

Many SET and tube manufacturers show nice fancy photos of the casework (the outside) of their amplifiers and very few pictures of what is going on inside and the inside to be blunt is the only thing that matters. Not the brand name - not a cool-looking case or that it has a copper chassis - I had a Pioneer Elite AVR Reciever that had a full copper chassis and the thing looked fantastic - it sounded like - well - a receiver which is to say not very good. But the main thing is that it looked very good.

I guess my point is this - if I buy a Jinro today and in 2038 I sell it and get my money back or I buy a XYZ amp for the same price from a no-name brand that may or may not even exist in 2038 then what - I get maybe 5-10% of my money back - if I can sell it at all? Will I be able to get parts for the thing? This is a real thing - Owners here noted that Mark Levinson is a pain because there are certain parts inside that can't be replaced should they fail - they don't make or stock any parts. Parasound uses some of those same parts made by ML. If your $12,000 amp breaks it is now a paperweight.

CD players? The Philips L1210 was a fairly common mid-level transport mechanism used by Audio Note in their lower-end units and by Bryston and Sim Audio - Bryston offered a long warranty so you can be sure it's a fairly robust drive. When Philips stopped making the mechanism AN UK bought most of the remaining stock - over 5000 drive mechanisms. Bryston and Sim Audio both stopped making their CD player because they do not stock a supply of things - most companies don't operate like AN UK. They plan to sell 500 CD players they buy 500 drive mechanisms - there is no profit in stocking extras. Not a lot of them anyway. They are both now using a lesser transport mechanism - the latter company hides it under some babble so no one can see what cheap mechanism is actually inside.

So while I can respect someone's choice to select what they think sounds better - I personally would rather choose my second or third choice if there are enough intangibles to make that make sense. It's the same for cars or printers or smartphones. I reviewed the Puraudio One - one of the absolute best SS integrated amplifiers that I have heard outclassing pretty much every other SS amplifier I have heard outside some idiotically expensive ones. I contemplated buying it - at $10k it was expensive but a "deal" for what it sounds like. The problem is it is a tiny company out of New Zealand - designed by the top guys from Plimnius who wanted out to make what they wanted to make.

Not long after my review and some others the design lead passed away - the partner responsible for the marketing end was no designer - the company folded. The $10k amp - well now what? Who is going to buy it? Who is going to send you the part or the schematic to fix it if there is no one left?

My advice to someone would be to buy a class A $10k Luxman or $10k Sugden Master Class, or perhaps Accuphase (if there is a dealer network in your country). I think the PureAudio One sounds better than all of these but it's not like these guys are lousy - they make good class A amps too - and you can get them fixed - and they have solid resale value - this stuff matters.

 

[Richard Austen]

To add to more affordable options - you can always look at AN Copy cat companies like SW1x - they buy AN parts and make their own designs at lower cost - they even have a level system that mirrors Audio Note. Try to find the numerous companies that buy AN transformers (hush hush). There are a lot of AN haters out there and one guy was raving about this much better 211 amp from a company - it turns out that they use AN transformers - so it's basically an AN amplifier with a different casework and name but the key thing is it doesn't SAY Audio Note on the front so all is okay.

That company is Wyatech Labs and their 211 was fantastic - I liked it a lot - 15 years later I found out it uses AN parts and I sort of chuckled. Another is Rogers - their amplifiers are designed by Audio Note using AN parts and are much cheaper. I believe it was only their special edition which has probably sold out. And of course there is ANKits - no longer associated with AN UK - still many of products were designed by AN UK and many of the parts are AN UK (though not the transformers). Still, they're in the ballpark and dramatically less expensive - and they build the kit for you for like 10% extra.

But the problem here again is that a kit doesn't hold much resale value.

 

[geetee1972]

Here is the problem with the pound for pound X is better - it isn't pound for pound when looking at the NET cost.

I bought my Audio Note OTO Phono SE in 2003 for $1800 and I can sell it today for $2500 - okay inflation but still. It will be hard to convince me that the OTO isn't the best deal in all of audio since every other $1800 amplifier back then would be lucky to get you $700.

It's the same for my old AN J/SPe speakers - paid $2500 for them in 2003 and sold them in 2016 for $2,917. 13 years of happy listening and I got more than I paid back for them. The other speaker I was considering was Reference 3a MM De Capo i which was selling for exactly the same price $2500. I saw a pair secondhand for an "asking price" of $900 and these were in absolute mint condition - my AN J was 7/10 in the least popular colour - black.

Higher priced items won't do as well but as I point out - the difficulty in buying AN used is that it has been around for decades with the same model number - no one else really does that. So when someone posts a 15-year-old Jinro up on the second-hand market they always post the "new list price" of a new Jinro. So let's say the new one is $30,000 - they put up their Jinro for $18k and will come down to say $15k - you say "What a deal I got it for half off" but what you didn't do was go back 15 years and find out what the original Jinro price at the time the owner bought it - the list price back then was maybe $18k and with the negotiation he paid $15k - he got his money back! This only works mind you if you keep your AN gear for at least a decade because the prices keep going up and up and up which means the used prices ALSO keep going up and up and up.

Even my lowly little AX Two - I have been offered double what I paid for it 11 years ago. It was a $650 speaker and I have been offered $1400. Why? Because the new AX Two/II is now priced at $4,000. The old one isn't as good perhaps (I have not heard the new one) but mine is is less than half the price and so it looks like a bargoon.

Part of the reason for the AN UK deal is that most of this comes down to the quality of parts - SET design is SET design and many push pull tube amps come from the same textbooks - they sound different because of the quality of parts.

Once you are forced to buy your Transformer or you have to buy you valve bases from "parts-o-rama" then the parts dictate to you what you can design. At Audio Note - they can design what they want to design and then they can also design their transformers from scratch, their caps and resistors, they design and manufacture their own valve bases, knobs, and casework down to the glue they use to seal their transformers.

This is not - hey let's see what Lundahl makes and design our amp around "whatever" they happen to sell.

Many SET and tube manufacturers show nice fancy photos of the casework (the outside) of their amplifiers and very few pictures of what is going on inside and the inside to be blunt is the only thing that matters. Not the brand name - not a cool-looking case or that it has a copper chassis - I had a Pioneer Elite AVR Reciever that had a full copper chassis and the thing looked fantastic - it sounded like - well - a receiver which is to say not very good. But the main thing is that it looked very good.

I guess my point is this - if I buy a Jinro today and in 2038 I sell it and get my money back or I buy a XYZ amp for the same price from a no-name brand that may or may not even exist in 2038 then what - I get maybe 5-10% of my money back - if I can sell it at all? Will I be able to get parts for the thing? This is a real thing - Owners here noted that Mark Levinson is a pain because there are certain parts inside that can't be replaced should they fail - they don't make or stock any parts. Parasound uses some of those same parts made by ML. If your $12,000 amp breaks it is now a paperweight.

CD players? The Philips L1210 was a fairly common mid-level transport mechanism used by Audio Note in their lower-end units and by Bryston and Sim Audio - Bryston offered a long warranty so you can be sure it's a fairly robust drive. When Philips stopped making the mechanism AN UK bought most of the remaining stock - over 5000 drive mechanisms. Bryston and Sim Audio both stopped making their CD player because they do not stock a supply of things - most companies don't operate like AN UK. They plan to sell 500 CD players they buy 500 drive mechanisms - there is no profit in stocking extras. Not a lot of them anyway. They are both now using a lesser transport mechanism - the latter company hides it under some babble so no one can see what cheap mechanism is actually inside.

So while I can respect someone's choice to select what they think sounds better - I personally would rather choose my second or third choice if there are enough intangibles to make that make sense. It's the same for cars or printers or smartphones. I reviewed the Puraudio One - one of the absolute best SS integrated amplifiers that I have heard outclassing pretty much every other SS amplifier I have heard outside some idiotically expensive ones. I contemplated buying it - at $10k it was expensive but a "deal" for what it sounds like. The problem is it is a tiny company out of New Zealand - designed by the top guys from Plimnius who wanted out to make what they wanted to make.

Not long after my review and some others the design lead passed away - the partner responsible for the marketing end was no designer - the company folded. The $10k amp - well now what? Who is going to buy it? Who is going to send you the part or the schematic to fix it if there is no one left?

My advice to someone would be to buy a class A $10k Luxman or $10k Sugden Master Class, or perhaps Accuphase (if there is a dealer network in your country). I think the PureAudio One sounds better than all of these but it's not like these guys are lousy - they make good class A amps too - and you can get them fixed - and they have solid resale value - this stuff matters.

Well, you just made the exact same point I was making in my post. The initial price point is high but it's off set by future resale values. I did make that point in my post but it still doesn't mean that the initial price point isn't very high for mainstream brands relative to other options.

 

[Richard Austen]

Well, you just made the exact same point I was making in my post. The initial price point is high but it's off set by future resale values. I did make that point in my post but it still doesn't mean that the initial price point isn't very high for mainstream brands relative to other options.

That's true and of course, we can't always come up with the list price. I mean it's not that different from cars either (again). Sure the Honda and Toyota have better resale value than the GM, Ford, and Chrysler but people on a tight budget may not be able to come up with the $3k extra up front - they may get $5k more in 7 years but that is 7 years you gotta wait to "win."

Realistically, the biggest problem in all audio discussions (and the many that seem to turn nasty) is that no one really has a shared experience. We are not listening to these amplifiers in the same room with the same gear at the same volume level with the same music. Audio Shows are a prime example - I listened to a room - it was great - another reviewer on our staff didn't like it - that's odd - so I decided to go back to the room with him - I put the music I played and rightly the same volume and had him sit where I sat. He was stunned - went from a "bad room" to being in his top 3.

But this isn't about a conversion story - it also teaches me a lesson that rooms I have not liked may have been subject to the same issue he had with a room I liked.

And this is before you even get into all the bias that influences people - price bias is big - it costs more so it must be better versus - I can't afford to buy XYZ so I will convince myself that what I can afford is much better or value for money is better so that means the same thing s as it sounds better. Other biases like - the owner of the company was a dick to me on a forum so now I will rip him every chance I get (I have some experience with this myself).

I don't think you will see too many of the same sorts of arguments in other fields like Cars. A Honda Accord handles better than a Toyota Camry - the Accord sits lower and picks up more road noise - this is hypothetical but whether you drive it in New York and I drive it LA - the experience will largely be shared and both of us can objectively draw the same factual conclusion - things like seat comfort is subjective - piano black picking up more dust and looking lousy after a month probably isn't.

 

[Bling23]

Here is the problem with the pound for pound X is better - it isn't pound for pound when looking at the NET cost.

I bought my Audio Note OTO Phono SE in 2003 for $1800 and I can sell it today for $2500 - okay inflation but still. It will be hard to convince me that the OTO isn't the best deal in all of audio since every other $1800 amplifier back then would be lucky to get you $700.

It's the same for my old AN J/SPe speakers - paid $2500 for them in 2003 and sold them in 2016 for $2,917. 13 years of happy listening and I got more than I paid back for them. The other speaker I was considering was Reference 3a MM De Capo i which was selling for exactly the same price $2500. I saw a pair secondhand for an "asking price" of $900 and these were in absolute mint condition - my AN J was 7/10 in the least popular colour - black.

Higher priced items won't do as well but as I point out - the difficulty in buying AN used is that it has been around for decades with the same model number - no one else really does that. So when someone posts a 15-year-old Jinro up on the second-hand market they always post the "new list price" of a new Jinro. So let's say the new one is $30,000 - they put up their Jinro for $18k and will come down to say $15k - you say "What a deal I got it for half off" but what you didn't do was go back 15 years and find out what the original Jinro price at the time the owner bought it - the list price back then was maybe $18k and with the negotiation he paid $15k - he got his money back! This only works mind you if you keep your AN gear for at least a decade because the prices keep going up and up and up which means the used prices ALSO keep going up and up and up.

Even my lowly little AX Two - I have been offered double what I paid for it 11 years ago. It was a $650 speaker and I have been offered $1400. Why? Because the new AX Two/II is now priced at $4,000. The old one isn't as good perhaps (I have not heard the new one) but mine is is less than half the price and so it looks like a bargoon.

Part of the reason for the AN UK deal is that most of this comes down to the quality of parts - SET design is SET design and many push pull tube amps come from the same textbooks - they sound different because of the quality of parts.

Once you are forced to buy your Transformer or you have to buy you valve bases from "parts-o-rama" then the parts dictate to you what you can design. At Audio Note - they can design what they want to design and then they can also design their transformers from scratch, their caps and resistors, they design and manufacture their own valve bases, knobs, and casework down to the glue they use to seal their transformers.

This is not - hey let's see what Lundahl makes and design our amp around "whatever" they happen to sell.

Many SET and tube manufacturers show nice fancy photos of the casework (the outside) of their amplifiers and very few pictures of what is going on inside and the inside to be blunt is the only thing that matters. Not the brand name - not a cool-looking case or that it has a copper chassis - I had a Pioneer Elite AVR Reciever that had a full copper chassis and the thing looked fantastic - it sounded like - well - a receiver which is to say not very good. But the main thing is that it looked very good.

I guess my point is this - if I buy a Jinro today and in 2038 I sell it and get my money back or I buy a XYZ amp for the same price from a no-name brand that may or may not even exist in 2038 then what - I get maybe 5-10% of my money back - if I can sell it at all? Will I be able to get parts for the thing? This is a real thing - Owners here noted that Mark Levinson is a pain because there are certain parts inside that can't be replaced should they fail - they don't make or stock any parts. Parasound uses some of those same parts made by ML. If your $12,000 amp breaks it is now a paperweight.

CD players? The Philips L1210 was a fairly common mid-level transport mechanism used by Audio Note in their lower-end units and by Bryston and Sim Audio - Bryston offered a long warranty so you can be sure it's a fairly robust drive. When Philips stopped making the mechanism AN UK bought most of the remaining stock - over 5000 drive mechanisms. Bryston and Sim Audio both stopped making their CD player because they do not stock a supply of things - most companies don't operate like AN UK. They plan to sell 500 CD players they buy 500 drive mechanisms - there is no profit in stocking extras. Not a lot of them anyway. They are both now using a lesser transport mechanism - the latter company hides it under some babble so no one can see what cheap mechanism is actually inside.

So while I can respect someone's choice to select what they think sounds better - I personally would rather choose my second or third choice if there are enough intangibles to make that make sense. It's the same for cars or printers or smartphones. I reviewed the Puraudio One - one of the absolute best SS integrated amplifiers that I have heard outclassing pretty much every other SS amplifier I have heard outside some idiotically expensive ones. I contemplated buying it - at $10k it was expensive but a "deal" for what it sounds like. The problem is it is a tiny company out of New Zealand - designed by the top guys from Plimnius who wanted out to make what they wanted to make.

Not long after my review and some others the design lead passed away - the partner responsible for the marketing end was no designer - the company folded. The $10k amp - well now what? Who is going to buy it? Who is going to send you the part or the schematic to fix it if there is no one left?

My advice to someone would be to buy a class A $10k Luxman or $10k Sugden Master Class, or perhaps Accuphase (if there is a dealer network in your country). I think the PureAudio One sounds better than all of these but it's not like these guys are lousy - they make good class A amps too - and you can get them fixed - and they have solid resale value - this stuff matters.

Thanks for the reply and interesting summary. I agree with most of but there’s also a premium you pay up front for all this do it balances itself out to a certain extent.

 

[Bling23]

To add to more affordable options - you can always look at AN Copy cat companies like SW1x - they buy AN parts and make their own designs at lower cost - they even have a level system that mirrors Audio Note. Try to find the numerous companies that buy AN transformers (hush hush). There are a lot of AN haters out there and one guy was raving about this much better 211 amp from a company - it turns out that they use AN transformers - so it's basically an AN amplifier with a different casework and name but the key thing is it doesn't SAY Audio Note on the front so all is okay.

That company is Wyatech Labs and their 211 was fantastic - I liked it a lot - 15 years later I found out it uses AN parts and I sort of chuckled. Another is Rogers - their amplifiers are designed by Audio Note using AN parts and are much cheaper. I believe it was only their special edition which has probably sold out. And of course there is ANKits - no longer associated with AN UK - still many of products were designed by AN UK and many of the parts are AN UK (though not the transformers). Still, they're in the ballpark and dramatically less expensive - and they build the kit for you for like 10% extra.

But the problem here again is that a kit doesn't hold much resale value.

I honestly done see much point in the ANKit. I understand it reaches a price point but I’d prefer to save and get the real deal you’d always be wondering what if. I am happy enough with my Meishu Tonemeister just curious what a 211 valve sounds like in comparison really. If I’m totally honest I can’t afford Jinro

 

[bonzo75]

I honestly done see much point in the ANKit. I understand it reaches a price point but I’d prefer to save and get the real deal you’d always be wondering what if. I am happy enough with my Meishu Tonemeister just curious what a 211 valve sounds like in comparison really. If I’m totally honest I can’t afford Jinro

You really cannot make out what a 211 valve sounds like by listening to the Jinro in stock form alone. I preferred the KR 88 integrated to the Jinro with Psvane 211 on the AN-E speakers.

That said, Psvane < KR < GE < RCA << Amperiex, and United and WE 242c are supposed to be near the Amperex.

The upswing on any 211 amp if you can rebias it and take it to Amperex is quite high.

I now have 3 data points, myself included, who prefer the Kondo Gakuon mk2 (300b) marginally to the Kagura (211) on the emotional side, though the Kagura is great too.

Generally a 300b amp should sound better than a 845/211 provided both are well made, and the speaker does not require the higher drive factor of the bigger amp, which is often required. It is also seldom the tube alone. I have compared 3 GM70s, and all 3 sound totally different, I liked only one. And any of these triode amps/preamps you should roll tubes to understand it properly

 

[Richard Austen]

I honestly done see much point in the ANKit. I understand it reaches a price point but I’d prefer to save and get the real deal you’d always be wondering what if. I am happy enough with my Meishu Tonemeister just curious what a 211 valve sounds like in comparison really. If I’m totally honest I can’t afford Jinro

I have only heard the Kit One - the problem with almost all DIY and KITs is being able to audition the thing before you buy it. And the money you save you lose on resale value. Still, DIY and KITs offer the advantage of superior parts quality (generally) for fewer dollars. But then no one factors in their time. If I applied what I charge per hour as a tutor for example and budgeted for all the equipment I would need to buy to build the kits then the finished product would probably be cheaper. Granted ANKits builds the kits for you for a relatively small fee and they offer upgrade paths for volume pots transformers resistors etc.

With pricing - just talk to your dealer - they know their customers a good deal and know which ones are looking to move their Jinro for a Tomei or Ongaku - That's how I got my AN K/SPe - the fellow needed to have them refoamed - he was ready to buy the $23,000 AN J/SEC Signature speakers (a fair number of folks prefer the AN J to the E after all). So the dealer passed the info to me - I paid for them (cash and my KEF LS50s) and voila - happy days.