Audiophile Fuses

[shel50]

They were simply pointing out that Little Fuse has an audio/medical grade fuse offering in the 285 series and they are significantly less expensive. This thread was started in 2010, have some respect for the views of other people. With all due respect the title of the thread is simply “Audiophile Fuses” so their comments are not off topic.

Thankyou -great minds think alike

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Thankyou -great minds think alike

Not sure about the great minds, as I have SR fuses in my equipment. Just seemed very condescending.

 

[shel50]

LOL. now I recall why I'm trashing this site-----

Not sure about the great minds, as I have SR fuses in my equipment. Just seemed very condescending.

100% agreed-----

 

[highstream]

They were simply pointing out that Little Fuse has an audio/medical grade fuse offering in the 285 series and they are significantly less expensive. This thread was started in 2010, have some respect for the views of other people. With all due respect the title of the thread is simply “Audiophile Fuses” so their comments are not off topic.

I read it differently. The first page of this thread starts wth HiFi Tuning and IsoClean fuses, and then picks up on PS Audio’s audiophile alternative. bazelio made clear he doesn’t believe in audiophile fuses (something like, “if there is such a thing”) and shel50 raised the usual cost issue in a way that (comment removed) commonly do (“legit priced”). If they were probing to understand the differences between medical grade fuses (or outlets) and audiophile ones, a substantial difference that has developed since 2010, I would have joined the discussion.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I read it differently. The first page of this thread starts wth HiFi Tuning and IsoClean fuses, and then picks up on PS Audio’s audiophile alternative. bazelio made clear he doesn’t believe in audiophile fuses (something like, “if there is such a thing”) and shel50 raised the usual cost issue in a way that (comment removed) commonly do (“legit priced”). If they were probing to understand the differences between medical grade fuses (or anything) and audiophile ones, a substantial difference that has developed since 2010, I wouldn’t have made a comment toward trying to keep the thread on track.

No worries, it is 13 year old thread. Personally I think I wasted money on the SR fuses. If you think they make a difference good for you. Just know when t=or if they blow out they go and 285's will go in. Really since 2010 not much has changed is fuses, if anything. Color me sceptical.

 

[bazelio]

The subject of this thread is about sound of Audiophile Fuses not what you call "legit" pricing, so your post is off topic, as is bazelio 's skepticism about whether the category of audiophile fuses is legitimate. Even if you disagree, please respect the assumption of the topic and its contributors who do hear differences, and take your views on the subject elsewhere.

Well, the Littlefuse is marketed as an "audio grade" (whatever that means) fuse, if that causes less disturbance in this delicate echo chamber. And I don't think I said I haven't heard differences with audio fuses. I was probably skeptical initially, but I have certainly heard differences. The problem is that the differences were usually worse instead of better sound, while the Littlefuse 285 is pretty solid and betters many of the more exotic choices. Though as I said, the Master is the first good sounding fuse from SR. Its price is just comical.

 

[highstream]

Well, the Littlefuse is marketed as an "audio grade" (whatever that means) fuse, if that causes less disturbance in this delicate echo chamber. And I don't think I said I haven't heard differences with audio fuses. I was probably skeptical initially, but I have certainly heard differences. The problem is that the differences were usually worse instead of better sound, while the Littlefuse 285 is pretty solid and betters many of the more exotic choices. Though as I said, the Master is the first good sounding fuse from SR. Its price is just comical.

That "whatever that means" is the point: OEM fuses that come with better audio gear are presumably (hopefully) chosen for being "audio grade" too in some sense, but their poor sound quality vs. the dedicated developmental work that goes into what's called audiophile fuses is why this thread. I don't know if I've ever had a Littelfuse (note spelling), and their marketing sheet for the 285 doesn't go beyond the general ("designed for audio and medical applications"), as you note. Since I probably haven't heard one, I can't say it isn't distinctly better than the others of its price range (its pricing doesn't suggest the company believes so). If it turned out to be that much better, great. And if they work for you, fine. That said...

I don't see a system listed for you, or even access to your profile open on this site. So what is your system and exactly which fuses have you listened to -- and burned in fully before judging, i.e., at least 250-300 hours? It is not unheard of for some people honestly not to find audiophile fuses generally ("usually") to be an improvement. That seems almost invariably to be the result of failure to burn in sufficiently, having put in directional fuses backwards (e.g., SR), the nature (sound quality) of their system or set up, or the nature of their hearing (absolutely or their experience re listening to discerning audio equipment. To be clear, I'm not referring to individual sound preferences in the sense of frequency balance or tone, e.g., SR Blue's, which I found intolerable, vs. the SR Orange or Purple, which have some warmth, but to the overall category (and most of the fuses in it).

 

[bazelio]

No, your "presumably" is the point. Audio gear generally doesn't ship with anything other than run of the mill fuses. And yet they sound better than most of the audiophile trinkets that are talked about here. That means to me that run of the mill fuses themselves deserve discussion in this thread and the 285 most certainly does. Carry on.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

That "whatever that means" is the point: OEM fuses that come with better audio gear are presumably (hopefully) chosen for being "audio grade" too in some sense, but their poor sound quality vs. the dedicated developmental work that goes into what's called audiophile fuses is why this thread. I don't know if I've ever had a Littelfuse (note spelling), and their marketing sheet for the 285 doesn't go beyond the general ("designed for audio and medical applications"), as you note. Since I probably haven't heard one, I can't say it isn't distinctly better than the others of its price range (its pricing doesn't suggest the company believes so). If it turned out to be that much better, great. And if they work for you, fine. That said...

I don't see a system listed for you, or even access to your profile open on this site. So what is your system and exactly which fuses have you listened to -- and burned in fully before judging, i.e., at least 250-300 hours? It is not unheard of for some people honestly not to find audiophile fuses generally ("usually") to be an improvement. That seems almost invariably to be the result of failure to burn in sufficiently, having put in directional fuses backwards (e.g., SR), the nature (sound quality) of their system or set up, or the nature of their hearing (absolutely or their experience re listening to discerning audio equipment. To be clear, I'm not referring to individual sound preferences in the sense of frequency balance or tone, e.g., SR Blue's, which I found intolerable, vs. the SR Orange or Purple, which have some warmth, but to the overall category (and most of the fuses in it).

I know of at least two amplifier designers and builders of both tube and solid state equipment that will tell you audiophile fuses are a waste. That the fuse has zero impact on sound. One of them is a frequent contributor to these pages. Yet there is another designer Paul McGowan at PS Audio who put Audiophile fuses in one of his DACs some time back and could hear a difference. I highly doubt and manufacturer is buying a specialized fuse for stock, I am sure they are buying what there load requires and chose glass or ceramic slow or fast blow. It is such a small segment in electronics.

 

[bazelio]

No, your "presumably" is the point. Audio gear generally doesn't ship with anything other than run of the mill fuses. And yet they sound better than most of the audiophile trinkets that are talked about here. That means to me that run of the mill fuses themselves deserve discussion in this thread and the 285 most certainly does. Carry on.

There's a video of the Master fuse being used in a PS Audio DAC on YouTube where they switch back and forth between it and another fuse. The difference, even on YouTube, is clearly apparent.

The Master sounds pretty good. I had a chance to borrow one and found it to be a mild improvement over a $0.99 fuse in my T+A DAC. Most of the time, the audiophile fuses sound too {warm, muddy, overdamped} <--- take your pick.

 

[highstream]

HiFi Tuning —> Audio Magic —> SR Black —> Audio Magic —> SR Orange & Audio Magic —> SR Purple —> QSA Red and Red-Black, the improvement in sound at each step in most all facets has been unmistakeable, with the QSA step being almost like buying a new component. I’m very far from alone in this type of experience. Pocketbook aside (I’ve usually paid well less than retail), my guess is that the differences you hear and don’t likely fall into one or more of those explanations I mentioned (there’s one more — intellectual stubbornness). It reminds me of the humbling experience of cataract surgery: before it, for years, I was absolutely convinced that the wall across from where I’m writing now was brown; afterwards, I discovered it was yellow, no brown.

 

[christoph]

I know of at least two amplifier designers and builders of both tube and solid state equipment that will tell you audiophile fuses are a waste. That the fuse has zero impact on sound.

Is that amp designer also one who says tube rolling is a waste?

 

[Carlsbad]

I'm late to this thread but I feel a fuse is a horrible thing. We buy power cables the size of our wrist to feed a power supply that weighs 40 kg and we strain the electrons through a filament the size of a human hair in the name of "protecting our investment" or protecting the mfr from warranty repairs.

Fuses should be replaced by circuit breakers ASAP. The first attempt has been made by the Swiss Digital Fuse Box and it is pretty good, but still needs some work.

I do not have fuses in any of my amps.

Jerry

 

[highstream]

I'm late to this thread but I feel a fuse is a horrible thing. We buy power cables the size of our wrist to feed a power supply that weighs 40 kg and we strain the electrons through a filament the size of a human hair in the name of "protecting our investment" or protecting the mfr from warranty repairs.

Fuses should be replaced by circuit breakers ASAP. The first attempt has been made by the Swiss Digital Fuse Box and it is pretty good, but still needs some work.

I do not have fuses in any of my amps.

Jerry

Are mechanical circuit breakers able to respond quickly enough? Wouldn't there be a difference sonically between circuit breakers, since resistance is involved, and overcoming its effects get pricey?

 

[Carlsbad]

@highstream If that were the case, then your house would be at risk since we we switched from fuses to breakers to protect your home decades ago.

I have 40 years experience in the utility business as an engineer and a manager. At this moment, I have an electrical engineer designing a new 12kv electrical supply for a medium sized facility and we are working through the protection scheme. Fuses are still used in a few places where minimal protection is required but circuit breakers are required instead of fuses in most applications because they do a BETTER job of protecting the equipment and the upstream circuit.

Recognize that the fuse is there in your component as a good faith attempt to prevent or limit damage to the component should a short or transient occur. the house and the wall circuit are protected by your circuit breaker. Fuses are sized to protect the downstream load.

There are 2 main types of circuit breakers: magnetic and thermal. Thermal breakers are not much better than fuses if at all. they still rely on a bimetal strip to heat up which means they have to have a significant resistance (to create the heat) and limit current flow during dynamic sections. This degrades sonic performance.

Magnetically tripped circuit breakers do not limit current and for large and important circuits they can carry tremendous amounts of current and trip very fast. Note that in your amp a slo-blo fuse is often used that isn't a fast interrupt. Magnetically tripped breakers can be extremely complex and powerful. I have seen breakers that cost $50k to have a contractor program them.

Certainly I do believe a circuit breaker will make quite a bit of difference in the sound--an improvement. A circuit breaker has high current contacts with very low resistance so they avoid all the negatives of fuses. It will not degrade sonic performance.

given the market for audiophile fuses that still have to blow so they offer a limited improvement over the standard fuses, I can't fathom why this hasn't been developed and offered. My job is getting easier and I may start developing one. As I said, the SDFB is making good progress.

Note that fuses NEVER improve sonic performance. An audiophile fuse can cause less degradation in sonic performance.

I do testing with high purity copper slugs to evaluate the effect the fuse is having on each component. If the slug doesn't improve the sound, then the fuse is doing no harm. this is generally true on a low current device (such as a streamer) with a good power supply. Amps seem to always benefit from eliminating the fuse.

If anyone wants a slug for testing, let me know, i made a lot of them.

As for pricey--the $400 to $1200 audiophile fuses seem to be flying off the shelf. Anybody that spends $100k on a system should not hesitate to spend a few hundred for a clear improvement. I can't see an audio specific circuit breaker costing more than $200 to $500 and probably less if mass produced. If bespoke breakers are made with solid silver contacts and the like, I'm sure they will get more expensive.

Jerry

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Is that amp designer also one who says tube rolling is a waste?

Could be, but there are 2 saying AP fuses are a waste of $$$

I rather enjoy tube rolling much more than the money spent on these purple things.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

HiFi Tuning —> Audio Magic —> SR Black —> Audio Magic —> SR Orange & Audio Magic —> SR Purple —> QSA Red and Red-Black, the improvement in sound at each step in most all facets has been unmistakeable, with the QSA step being almost like buying a new component. I’m very far from alone in this type of experience. Pocketbook aside (I’ve usually paid well less than retail), my guess is that the differences you hear and don’t likely fall into one or more of those explanations I mentioned (there’s one more — intellectual stubbornness). It reminds me of the humbling experience of cataract surgery: before it, for years, I was absolutely convinced that the wall across from where I’m writing now was brown; afterwards, I discovered it was yellow, no brown.

You're a fuser, good for you.

 

[highstream]

Could be, but there are 2 saying AP fuses are a waste of $$$

I rather enjoy tube rolling much more than the money spent on these purple things.

When it comes to accessories, count me skeptical of developer claims until proven otherwise. I had two tell me that getting a better umbilical for my preamp was a waste of money, that umbilicals don’t affect the sound. One was the guy actually building the custom replacement and the other was the preamp’s developer, who was outraged and threatened to cancel the lifetime warranty if I used it. The substantial improvement was obvious from the first moments. And later I got even a bigger improvement switching to the Revelation.

 

[bazelio]

@highstream If that were the case, then your house would be at risk since we we switched from fuses to breakers to protect your home decades ago.

I have 40 years experience in the utility business as an engineer and a manager. At this moment, I have an electrical engineer designing a new 12kv electrical supply for a medium sized facility and we are working through the protection scheme. Fuses are still used in a few places where minimal protection is required but circuit breakers are required instead of fuses in most applications because they do a BETTER job of protecting the equipment and the upstream circuit.

Recognize that the fuse is there in your component as a good faith attempt to prevent or limit damage to the component should a short or transient occur. the house and the wall circuit are protected by your circuit breaker. Fuses are sized to protect the downstream load.

There are 2 main types of circuit breakers: magnetic and thermal. Thermal breakers are not much better than fuses if at all. they still rely on a bimetal strip to heat up which means they have to have a significant resistance (to create the heat) and limit current flow during dynamic sections. This degrades sonic performance.

Magnetically tripped circuit breakers do not limit current and for large and important circuits they can carry tremendous amounts of current and trip very fast. Note that in your amp a slo-blo fuse is often used that isn't a fast interrupt. Magnetically tripped breakers can be extremely complex and powerful. I have seen breakers that cost $50k to have a contractor program them.

Certainly I do believe a circuit breaker will make quite a bit of difference in the sound--an improvement. A circuit breaker has high current contacts with very low resistance so they avoid all the negatives of fuses. It will not degrade sonic performance.

given the market for audiophile fuses that still have to blow so they offer a limited improvement over the standard fuses, I can't fathom why this hasn't been developed and offered. My job is getting easier and I may start developing one. As I said, the SDFB is making good progress.

Note that fuses NEVER improve sonic performance. An audiophile fuse can cause less degradation in sonic performance.

I do testing with high purity copper slugs to evaluate the effect the fuse is having on each component. If the slug doesn't improve the sound, then the fuse is doing no harm. this is generally true on a low current device (such as a streamer) with a good power supply. Amps seem to always benefit from eliminating the fuse.

If anyone wants a slug for testing, let me know, i made a lot of them.

As for pricey--the $400 to $1200 audiophile fuses seem to be flying off the shelf. Anybody that spends $100k on a system should not hesitate to spend a few hundred for a clear improvement. I can't see an audio specific circuit breaker costing more than $200 to $500 and probably less if mass produced. If bespoke breakers are made with solid silver contacts and the like, I'm sure they will get more expensive.

Jerry

I'll take a couple slugs. What sizes do you have? Feel free to PM me.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

When it comes to accessories, count me skeptical of developer claims until proven otherwise. I had two tell me that getting a better umbilical for my preamp was a waste of money, that umbilicals don’t affect the sound. One was the guy actually building the custom replacement and the other was the preamp’s developer, who was outraged and threatened to cancel the lifetime warranty if I used it. The substantial improvement was obvious from the first moments. And later I got even a bigger improvement switching to the Revelation.

Okay enjoy, not a cable denier, not a fuser, tried and failed with me.