Audiophile Fuses

[ssfas]

He has a batter operated discman. Welcome to 1984.

I'ver just inherited a battery operated Discman. Is it worth anything? It uses a 9v battery, so a rather expensive hobby.

 

[Geoffkait]

RepublicofTexas69 said, “He has a batter operated discman. Welcome to 1984.”

Funny you should say 1984, you know, the novel about mind control and double speak. Generally speaking 1984 examines the role of truth and facts within societies and the ways in which they can be manipulated.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I'ver just inherited a battery operated Discman. Is it worth anything? It uses a 9v battery, so a rather expensive hobby.

I highly doubt it is worth the cost of the battery.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

RepublicofTexas69 said, “He has a batter operated discman. Welcome to 1984.”

Funny you should say 1984, you know, the novel about mind control and double speak. Generally speaking 1984 examines the role of truth and facts within societies and the ways in which they can be manipulated.

Yes and those of us on The Animal Farm absolutely understand the irony why do you think we wrote this retort.

 

[Kingrex]

Noise is complex. All.of us have it to some degree. The intensity and type in relation to the equipment it is impacting all influence what if anything needs to be done.

Rack mount or wall mount filters filter some types of noise. Some of the noise from your house or noise that has coupled to the power line. Those filter when doing a job that is needed bring a quieter background, cleaner playback wirh better articulation and better dynamics. If they were not needed and used, they may close is the sound and compress dynamics.

Rack and wall filters don't address RF that is entering through your audio equipment. I find vinyl to be heavily impacted by RF. Other tell me it is RF that is modulating into the power supply and being amplified where its heard as a hum. The best defense against this is a phono preamp that does not allow the RF to become part of the power. It is a delicate balance for the phono preamp manufacturer to walk. As you filter harder, you loose dynamics and subtle nuances. The phono stages I have heard that are roughly $20k and under have a similar reaction to RF. If they are heavily filtered, they have a very black background, but they are lifeless. Those that have little filtering are much more alive and musical. But they can be noisy. Downright annoyingly noisy. Like 30 to 40 db noisy with hum or AM radio playing in the background. Its a fine line to have quiet and no noise. The really noisy ones seem to work in a percentage of homes. Others no way. My personal home has really bad RF. My Lino 3.3 walks the line well. Very musical but quiet. I heard others I liked better, but the hum was too loud.

So what does this have to do with a fuse. I believe a fuse could let a little FR in. That RF might be heard as a slight veil. I don't know??? What about all the wire in your chassis. What about the power cord. What about the interconnects. What about the speaker wire. What about the chassis themselves. I believe RF is all over your chassis. That is the major pick up source. This is where the PS of your equipment becomes critical. The fuse is 1 very small exposed component. Hyper focus on a fuse might provide less gain than focus in other area.

I think its worth it to spend at a minimum a little money to get a quality fuse made of copper. I dont believe a tin end cap with tin solder and whatever the element is fuse will work as well as one that is all copper with a good solder. All other additives to the fuse such as RF shileding and packing for vibration may bring gains. My sense is the biggest ones come from getting more clean copper into the power supply.
And I know the element has a direction. All wire does. Heck, I have a client who over the last couple weeks has tried flipping his Romex from 1 direction to the other that feeds his mastering studio. He has then captured a digital recording of an analog tape and you can hear a change based on the inwall wire direction. That's pretty irrefutable evidence wire has an audible grain.

 

[Geoffkait]

Noise is only one of the baddies. There is also distortion. They are not the same thing. Signal to Noise Ratio is defined as Signal/ Noise + Distortion. People are often well versed on what produces noise and distortion in an audio system based on what comprises the audio system, I.e., Transformers, Cabling, fuses, RFI, room acoustic anomalies, inherent noise and distortion in electronics. What are we missing? We’re missing things that produce noise and distortion that don’t fall into nice, neat little categories everyone is very familiar with. I.e., Things not (rpt not) in the *signal path* anywhere in the hifi system itself! Not wiring, cabling, acoustic waves, electronics, or speakers. Things like,

The effect of cellphones on sound.
The effect of unused speakers in the room on the sound.
The effect of telephone books (and books generally) on sound.
The effect of unused audio stuff in the room, cables, electronics, musical instruments, etc. on sound.

 

[ssfas]

Noise is complex. All.of us have it to some degree. The intensity and type in relation to the equipment it is impacting all influence what if anything needs to be done.

Rack mount or wall mount filters filter some types of noise. Some of the noise from your house or noise that has coupled to the power line. Those filter when doing a job that is needed bring a quieter background, cleaner playback wirh better articulation and better dynamics. If they were not needed and used, they may close is the sound and compress dynamics.

Rack and wall filters don't address RF that is entering through your audio equipment. I find vinyl to be heavily impacted by RF. Other tell me it is RF that is modulating into the power supply and being amplified where its heard as a hum. The best defense against this is a phono preamp that does not allow the RF to become part of the power. It is a delicate balance for the phono preamp manufacturer to walk. As you filter harder, you loose dynamics and subtle nuances. The phono stages I have heard that are roughly $20k and under have a similar reaction to RF. If they are heavily filtered, they have a very black background, but they are lifeless. Those that have little filtering are much more alive and musical. But they can be noisy. Downright annoyingly noisy. Like 30 to 40 db noisy with hum or AM radio playing in the background. Its a fine line to have quiet and no noise. The really noisy ones seem to work in a percentage of homes. Others no way. My personal home has really bad RF. My Lino 3.3 walks the line well. Very musical but quiet. I heard others I liked better, but the hum was too loud.

So what does this have to do with a fuse. I believe a fuse could let a little FR in. That RF might be heard as a slight veil. I don't know??? What about all the wire in your chassis. What about the power cord. What about the interconnects. What about the speaker wire. What about the chassis themselves. I believe RF is all over your chassis. That is the major pick up source. This is where the PS of your equipment becomes critical. The fuse is 1 very small exposed component. Hyper focus on a fuse might provide less gain than focus in other area.

I think its worth it to spend at a minimum a little money to get a quality fuse made of copper. I dont believe a tin end cap with tin solder and whatever the element is fuse will work as well as one that is all copper with a good solder. All other additives to the fuse such as RF shileding and packing for vibration may bring gains. My sense is the biggest ones come from getting more clean copper into the power supply.
And I know the element has a direction. All wire does. Heck, I have a client who over the last couple weeks has tried flipping his Romex from 1 direction to the other that feeds his mastering studio. He has then captured a digital recording of an analog tape and you can hear a change based on the inwall wire direction. That's pretty irrefutable evidence wire has an audible grain.

Even cheap fuses like those from Bussmann and Littelfuse have tin-plated copper conductors and nickel-plated brass caps.

These are not cheap options, they are fit-for-purpose choices. Nickel-plated brass has good conductivity and is highly non-corrosive. Copper would be a bad choice. Some companies do gold plated caps, not expensive.

 

[Geoffkait]

Of course those cheaper stock Bussman and Littelfuse are directional, just like the fancy pants audiophile fuses. So you have a 50% of getting a nice boost in SQ just by flipping your cheap fuse. Who would not welcome that with open arms?

Pop quiz: why would a fuse be directional even when the power cord, which IS directional, is not correctly oriented? And why is a fuse located in the speaker be directional even when the speaker cables, which ARE directional, are oriented in the wrong direction?

 

[Geoffkait]

Ssfas wrote, “These are not cheap options, they are fit-for-purpose choices. Nickel-plated brass has good conductivity and is highly non-corrosive. Copper would be a bad choice. Some companies do gold plated caps, not expensive.”

Huh? Copper is a much better conductor than either nickel or brass. Why nit silver? a better conductor than even copper. Gold while shiny is not as good a conductor as silver or copper. Then add cryogenics to the mix and what do you get? A better fuse. Hey, you Bussman and Littelfuse fans, take note. It helps a lot to employ conductive contact enhancer on all electrical points of contact including Mr. fuse.

Good is the enemy of Great. - Old audiophile axiom

 

[Kingrex]

Of course those cheaper stock Bussman and Littelfuse are directional, just like the fancy pants audiophile fuses. So you have a 50% of getting a nice boost in SQ just by flipping your cheap fuse. Who would not welcome that with open arms?

Pop quiz: why would a fuse be directional even when the power cord, which IS directional, is not correctly oriented? And why is a fuse located in the speaker be directional even when the speaker cables, which ARE directional, are oriented in the wrong direction?

The wire in your wall is directional as well as the utility lines. You work towards getting everything correct. Even 1 out of alignment becomes a choke so to speak.

 

[Kingrex]

Even cheap fuses like those from Bussmann and Littelfuse have tin-plated copper conductors and nickel-plated brass caps.

These are not cheap options, they are fit-for-purpose choices. Nickel-plated brass has good conductivity and is highly non-corrosive. Copper would be a bad choice. Some companies do gold plated caps, not expensive.

Are these opinions you developed over time that are now facts in your mind you want others to believe?

 

[Geoffkait]

The wire in your wall is directional as well as the utility lines. You work towards getting everything correct. Even 1 out of alignment becomes a choke so to speak.

Actually I’m not 100% sure your answer is responsive to my question, even though it is true. I’m asking, How can one teeny tiny fuse be so audible direction-wise when at least 50% of all remaining cables and wires in the system are oriented incorrectly?

 

[ssfas]

Ssfas wrote, “These are not cheap options, they are fit-for-purpose choices. Nickel-plated brass has good conductivity and is highly non-corrosive. Copper would be a bad choice. Some companies do gold plated caps, not expensive.”

Huh? Copper is a much better conductor than either nickel or brass. Why nit silver? a better conductor than even copper. Gold while shiny is not as good a conductor as silver or copper. Then add cryogenics to the mix and what do you get? A better fuse. Hey, you Bussman and Littelfuse fans, take note. It helps a lot to employ conductive contact enhancer on all electrical points of contact including Mr. fuse.

Good is the enemy of Great. - Old audiophile axiom

Copper is a bit soft for fuse caps. Here in the UK we use copper for plug pins, there are audiophile options, but for our big, heavy plugs, copper is ideal.

I use contact enhancer from time to time. Most electricians use it, although my guys tended to wear surgical gloves, as do I if I'm doing anything major. It avoids getting sweat, grime and fingerprints on stuff.

Of course those cheaper stock Bussman and Littelfuse are directional, just like the fancy pants audiophile fuses. So you have a 50% of getting a nice boost in SQ just by flipping your cheap fuse. Who would not welcome that with open arms?

Pop quiz: why would a fuse be directional even when the power cord, which IS directional, is not correctly oriented? And why is a fuse located in the speaker be directional even when the speaker cables, which ARE directional, are oriented in the wrong direction?

I have never had any thought or concern for directionality of anything that can be reversed. I'm not starting now. I spit in the face of FOMO.

Here in the UK plugs arrive fused and in 40 years I don't think I've ever had to touch one. I once changed the fuse in a streamer, that was the only time. No difference heard.

Here in the UK maybe people are a little (or a lot) less gullible. Fuses tend to provoke ridicule in the vast majority of online conversations, directionality follows close behind.

Are these opinions you developed over time that are now facts in your mind you want others to believe?

No, they are not opinions I have developed. I looked up the specification and datasheets for a range of 5x20 cartridge fuses from a range of manufacturers, including Bussmann and Littelfuse. I also checked the conductivity data of the various alloys and base metals used in fuse construction.

All this information is available online. You can look it up yourself. For example:

https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1504744.pdf

You will see on this sheet that lower rates fuses (up to 0.4A) they use silver-plating instead of nickel-plating. Littelfuse use nickel-plating throughout. Obviously Bussman think on lower rate fuses they need higher conductivity caps.

https://www.littelfuse.com/media?resourcetype=datasheets&itemid=990f7193-d9a2-48e4-b760-2b43514249cf&filename=littelfuse-fuse-215-datasheet

You can read the data and manufacturing specifications and make your own mind up. Here in the UK we also have legislation the manufacture of certain fuses.

 

[ssfas]

The wire in your wall is directional as well as the utility lines. You work towards getting everything correct. Even 1 out of alignment becomes a choke so to speak.

What do you mean by "choke"?

I have a fairly standard installation (I'm connected to a 3-phase supply), you're telling me that the large armoured cable and the connecting cables to the meter, all installed by the network engineers (it's a criminal offence to touch this stuff) are directional? Maybe you'd like to pay $7,000 to turn them around and see if they sound different.

Incidentally, those boxes above L1, L2 and Ľ3 are 100A fuses with a wire security seal embossed by the utility company. You can see the seal on the neutral/ground.


After that, every element of the system is systematically tested. This is standard procedure here. My audio power lines have the lowest impedances in the system after the car charger.

 

[Geoffkait]

Ssfas, you say in the UK they don’t pay any mind to fuses or directionality? Perhaps that means I must be on the right track. Regarding Your comment that copper is too soft to use for fuse caps, what difference does its softness make? It‘s just just sitting there in the fuse holder, inert. Besides they use high purity copper connectors, no problemo. But I suspect most high end fuses use silver since it’s a better conductor. Like HiFi Tuning, and I know they’ve sold a whole lot of fuses.All silver and cryo’d, that's the way to fly.

You can’t debunk something that’s not bunk.

 

[Kingrex]

What do you mean by "choke"?

I have a fairly standard installation (I'm connected to a 3-phase supply), you're telling me that the large armoured cable and the connecting cables to the meter, all installed by the network engineers (it's a criminal offence to touch this stuff) are directional? Maybe you'd like to pay $7,000 to turn them around and see if they sound different.

Incidentally, those boxes above L1, L2 and Ľ3 are 100A fuses with a wire security seal embossed by the utility company. You can see the seal on the neutral/ground.
View attachment 126211 View attachment 126213

After that, every element of the system is systematically tested. This is standard procedure here. My audio power lines have the lowest impedances in the system after the car charger.
View attachment 126214 View attachment 126215

I would grain orient branch wire. You don't have the ability to do stranded feeder or service wires.
I mean a choke as every not optimized piece of the puzzle is just that. The more you do correctly, the better the overall result.

 

[Kingrex]

Actually I’m not 100% sure your answer is responsive to my question, even though it is true. I’m asking, How can one teeny tiny fuse be so audible direction-wise when at least 50% of all remaining cables and wires in the system are oriented incorrectly?

Kind of like, Digital sounds great on its own. But every time you better a piece such as the modem, router and switch and the power supplies associated with them, and the cables used to attach them. Each piece has an audible affect. Not addressing any one of them does not make digital not sound great. Its just a piece that can be better. Same for a fuse. Its just a piece that can be better. If your going to put a decent fuse in, take the time to pull it and flip it a few times to see if one direction of the other seems to jump out as more pleasing to you. It may not. Then again you might immediately notice it. Its a free boost if you take a little time to fiddle with it. It won't ruin anything if you don't. Your just might not get all it has to give.

 

[Argonaut]

Copper is a bit soft for fuse caps. Here in the UK we use copper for plug pins, there are audiophile options, but for our big, heavy plugs, copper is ideal.

If you are referring to 13Amp mains socket plugs ? I think you meant Brass no.

 

[Kingrex]

Copper is a bit soft for fuse caps. Here in the UK we use copper for plug pins, there are audiophile options, but for our big, heavy plugs, copper is ideal.

I use contact enhancer from time to time. Most electricians use it, although my guys tended to wear surgical gloves, as do I if I'm doing anything major. It avoids getting sweat, grime and fingerprints on stuff.


I have never had any thought or concern for directionality of anything that can be reversed. I'm not starting now. I spit in the face of FOMO.

Here in the UK plugs arrive fused and in 40 years I don't think I've ever had to touch one. I once changed the fuse in a streamer, that was the only time. No difference heard.

Here in the UK maybe people are a little (or a lot) less gullible. Fuses tend to provoke ridicule in the vast majority of online conversations, directionality follows close behind.

No, they are not opinions I have developed. I looked up the specification and datasheets for a range of 5x20 cartridge fuses from a range of manufacturers, including Bussmann and Littelfuse. I also checked the conductivity data of the various alloys and base metals used in fuse construction.

All this information is available online. You can look it up yourself. For example:

https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1504744.pdf

You will see on this sheet that lower rates fuses (up to 0.4A) they use silver-plating instead of nickel-plating. Littelfuse use nickel-plating throughout. Obviously Bussman think on lower rate fuses they need higher conductivity caps.

https://www.littelfuse.com/media?resourcetype=datasheets&itemid=990f7193-d9a2-48e4-b760-2b43514249cf&filename=littelfuse-fuse-215-datasheet

You can read the data and manufacturing specifications and make your own mind up. Here in the UK we also have legislation the manufacture of certain fuses.

If you listen to a brass duplex like Hubbell vs a copper duplex like Furutech, you can hear the difference. All metals have a sonic signature. Even the plating. I interpret your comment to be, why use copper. Brass and tin sound fine. I disagree. That is an opinion on my part. But I have listened to a lot of metals. Maybe you have too. I find plain copper to be a functional baseline. From there, use what you want to enhance the sonic character as you like.

I don't agree that copper fuse ends are so soft they will deform. I have not seen that happen on any of the fuses I have. Hifi Supreme and Wilmar. I have not seen anyone of a forum complain they inserted a fuse in the socket and it was damaged from the fuse base .

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Here in the UK maybe people are a little (or a lot) less gullible.

Piltdown man, (Eoanthropus dawsoni), proposed species of extinct hominin (member of the human lineage) whose fossilremains, discovered in England in 1910–12, were later proved to be fraudulent. Piltdown man, whose fossils were sufficiently convincing to generate a scholarly controversy lasting more than 40 years, was one of the most successful hoaxes in the history of science.