AXPONA 2023

[Ron Resnick]

Not as extended and layered in the bass as they are with sub- woofer towers, the down-firing 12 inch just can't compete with 16 twelve inch drivers. Compared to the Martin Logan Statements, the 101's are leaner with a somewhat smaller and lower images. The MBL's have a more extended treble, i just love that little carbon petal omni tweeter, it is smooth but still has that metal bite when the instruments call for it, electrostatic speakers are a little lacking in that department. The Statements fill up the room with visceral holographic body's on the right recordings, and have a general tendency to make even shitty recordings enjoyable partly because the mid-bass is so fleshed out and energetic. The MBL's prefer really good recordings, and will often make bad ones sound unlistenable. I will add my second set of sub-towers to the MBL's, i am waiting for a friend to help with the heavy lifting, they are currently locate in the part of the listening room where the Statements subside, on a somewhat lower floor plan .

I find here a lot of insightful and accurate and sophisticated observations based on what is clearly vast personal experience with the loudspeaker systems being discussed. With far less experience on my part these observations are consistent with my much more limited impressions.

 

[LL21]

Not as extended and layered in the bass as they are with sub- woofer towers, the down-firing 12 inch just can't compete with 16 twelve inch drivers. Compared to the Martin Logan Statements, the 101's are leaner with a somewhat smaller and lower images. The MBL's have a more extended treble, i just love that little carbon petal omni tweeter, it is smooth but still has that metal bite when the instruments call for it, electrostatic speakers are a little lacking in that department. The Statements fill up the room with visceral holographic body's on the right recordings, and have a general tendency to make even shitty recordings enjoyable partly because the mid-bass is so fleshed out and energetic. The MBL's prefer really good recordings, and will often make bad ones sound unlistenable. I will add my second set of sub-towers to the MBL's, i am waiting for a friend to help with the heavy lifting, they are currently locate in the part of the listening room where the Statements subside, on a somewhat lower floor plan .

Fascinating to read about endless and effortless bass. Great post. I have been reading about REL 6-packs from owners and listeners...and in your case 16 x 12" cones!

We dont have the space in our living room that [visually] would work for the big towers though the volume could probably work with it. We are thinking of dual-opposing 24" (carbon fiber so same weight at 18" cones) driven by 4000 watt amp for control...and which interestingly at 24" has the same cone surface area of one of your mighty ML towers...and depending on the excursion of the 24" cones could ultimately prove to be fairly close in actual air displacement terms.

Naturally, its all about quality of bass, speed, etc. And a massive, single unit (vs stereo) plus your height which I am sure is also a benefit...

But given locational constrains...I still want to explore awesome air displacement at low volumes to create that very special sense of realism, the venue, etc. which deep bass that 'surrounds you' can help recreate.

Presume that is a big part of what happens when you switch those towers on? That sense of mid-bass, power and 'foundation' to your music, plus the sense of venue and real-space? Thanks for any further observations.

 

[Lagonda]

Fascinating to read about endless and effortless bass. Great post. I have been reading about REL 6-packs from owners and listeners...and in your case 16 x 12" cones!

We dont have the space in our living room that [visually] would work for the big towers though the volume could probably work with it. We are thinking of dual-opposing 24" (carbon fiber so same weight at 18" cones) driven by 4000 watt amp for control...and which interestingly at 24" has the same cone surface area of one of your mighty ML towers...and depending on the excursion of the 24" cones could ultimately prove to be fairly close in actual air displacement terms.

Naturally, its all about quality of bass, speed, etc. And a massive, single unit (vs stereo) plus your height which I am sure is also a benefit...

But given locational constrains...I still want to explore awesome air displacement at low volumes to create that very special sense of realism, the venue, etc. which deep bass that 'surrounds you' can help recreate.

Presume that is a big part of what happens when you switch those towers on? That sense of mid-bass, power and 'foundation' to your music, plus the sense of venue and real-space? Thanks for any further observations.

Without the towers, the whole sound collapses, they are not add ons, they are part of the speaker system, used with the MBL's only playing down to about 100 Hz with a 24 db slope there is a lot missing without. The Statements main towers have good output until 60 HZ without active crossover, with crossover they sound the same, with added heft better punch on drums and with earthshaking deep bass when it is present on the track, but that is not often the case. I play mostly vinyl, few track have that deep deep bass in the grooves, the subs rarely call attention to themselves. I my previous setup i was using them in a home theater setting, the crossover has a separate input for effects from a processor. In that settup the output was sometimes directly scary, granite flooring and walls would shake. But they add a more precise placement of musicians and instruments and give room cues when they are dialed in correctly, if not they mess everything up instead !

 

[LL21]

Without the towers, the whole sound collapses, they are not add ons, they are part of the speaker system, used with the MBL's only playing down to about 100 Hz with a 24 db slope there is a lot missing without. The Statements main towers have good output until 60 HZ without active crossover, with crossover they sound the same, with added heft better punch on drums and with earthshaking deep bass when it is present on the track, but that is not often the case. I play mostly vinyl, few track have that deep deep bass in the grooves, the subs rarely call attention to themselves. I my previous setup i was using them in a home theater setting, the crossover has a separate input for effects from a processor. In that settup the output was sometimes directly scary, granite flooring and walls would shake. But they add a more precise placement of musicians and instruments and give room cues when they are dialed in correctly, if not they mess everything up instead !

Thank you! Very interesting. In our case, we would either leave the XLFs running full range or create a slope around 28hz - 38hz to give them more headroom while bringing in the sub. A different technical mix at those frequencies vs 60hz or 100hz, but nevertheless your impressions about WHAT that provides is very helpful, particularly at that unusually significant amount of bass (16 x 12" cones!). Enjoy!!!

 

[Calvinj]

Thanks I was there to work but just enjoyed listening to our system. Just like it’s supposed to be.

 

[Elliot G.]

Fascinating to read about endless and effortless bass. Great post. I have been reading about REL 6-packs from owners and listeners...and in your case 16 x 12" cones!

We dont have the space in our living room that [visually] would work for the big towers though the volume could probably work with it. We are thinking of dual-opposing 24" (carbon fiber so same weight at 18" cones) driven by 4000 watt amp for control...and which interestingly at 24" has the same cone surface area of one of your mighty ML towers...and depending on the excursion of the 24" cones could ultimately prove to be fairly close in actual air displacement terms.

Naturally, its all about quality of bass, speed, etc. And a massive, single unit (vs stereo) plus your height which I am sure is also a benefit...

But given locational constrains...I still want to explore awesome air displacement at low volumes to create that very special sense of realism, the venue, etc. which deep bass that 'surrounds you' can help recreate.

Presume that is a big part of what happens when you switch those towers on? That sense of mid-bass, power and 'foundation' to your music, plus the sense of venue and real-space? Thanks for any further observations.

With the woofers I am using they have 4 presets , which can individually set up but from the factory as most will be used with a Gobel speaker they are 30 35 40 and 45 hertz. There are so many options to choose but you can select the frequencies from your device ( phone , tablet etc) or from a small push button on the subs. We have found them rather simple to dial in and IMO the best that i have ever tried or heard. I have experimented with most of the major brands and heard others in clients systems.
This is my first time being satisfied with any add on device to augment a high end pair of speakers.
I personally am very sensitive and critical to doing this since for most of my adult life i have been working with large speaker system that did not get it right.

 

[TLE]

I want to make sure I check out:

Alma
Alsyvox
Analysis Audio
atma-sphere
Bayz
Cardas
Claiysis
Bending Wave/Goebel
Edwardo's Pizza*
Gestalt
Iconoclast
Infigo
Joseph Cali Designs/Gryphon
Magnepan
MartinLogan
Robert Do
Triangle Art
United Home Audio
Von Schweikert
Westminster Lab
Upscale Audio

*The one thing, and the only thing, I miss about Chicago.

Ron, a great list and guide, I would add that Audiogroup Denmark has raised the bar lately quite a lot with the stunning Borresen M1 speakers, Aavik 880 Amps that are simply shocking, and Ansuz with an updated technology that frankly no one else has.
Alsyvox is always a great delight, my friend Daniele created a masterpiece, Bayz very cool, too. Wish we had the space in our 3 rooms at Blink High End for all of them.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

It really is amazing the way we all interpret things. I was at the show and read some of the show reports and its 50/50 that I will align with bloggers or print reviewers on what I heard.

On the Clarysis- I felt the room was far too small to interpret anything. They did have an amazing bass energy and were big sounding. Unfortunately, the image position and the sound stage was homogenized mainly- I believe because of the positioning.

I think in a proper environment would give them a better showing.

Too many rooms to list but some impressions:

The Magicos with CAT was a nice try but no cigar for me- but it was a smart move to try and tame the Magicos.

However, the best Magico system was the MSB room with the mid of the line MSB stack ( still probably 50K$) It was excellent. In fact, although it is impossible to discern a DAC in a system under these conditions- consistently MSB was sounding good in every room that it was in with the conductor. I am not a big digital proponent.

The best two at the show- all out assault- Vivid Giyas and AudioNet by GTT - phenomenal. Air , dimension, space , slam , articulate.

Runner up -mid budget - Rockport Atria's with Vinnie Rossi integrated (38k$!) holy smokes, why am I complicating my life. The Atria's were in with Paul Jayson(great guy and legend) of Viola- but just did not gel like the Vinnie Rossi room.

Big disappointments- Karan-Vinberg: too hifi

-VTL- Steinham: washed out, rolling bass, one plane of sound

- Acora- not my cup of tea and anything VAC just did not cut it at this show ( and I love Kevin Hayes). The sound was polite in my opinion and more suited to classical in the room. At 220K for the Acora's I would approach a manufacturer with some real engineering chops that has been around for awhile instead of this brand.

Jeff Joseph and Doshi was a blast- energentic , clean - fun
Vandersteen and ARC was very, very good, but just couldn't cut it compared to the Vivid room or even the small Rockports.

Some of the other mega systems were ok , promising but - all had problems - lets say it was the room, the power, the setup. Avantagarde, Goebel, Estalon, etc, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

Big surprise on a budget. The all Prana room with vinyl ( Kuzma) - wow what fun . I could live with it.

Great show- but as we come to expect, difficult to get the best out of these systems under these conditions. The shows pave the way for further investigation.

-

That's an interesting write up, thanks for the info.
BTW, best of show overall was actually the VTL and Steinham speakers combo... according to Jay. In his video, he says that it fully engaged him with emotion and musicality, that were not found on any of the others including his own system, uh? Anyway during that demo, the cabling was Nordost top of the line Odin 2 Gold reference series, no wonder it was totally engaging!

However according to your findings, this VTL & Steinham combo was meh...
Maybe Jay got few $$$ in an envelope oops
*forgot to mention * apparently those Steinham's cost something like 155grand! What the...
If I were to engage in that kind of spend, I'd rather settle for the new Genesis Tribute speakers and call it a day. And still have a few pennies left for amps. Just my 50cts worth.

Woof! RJ

 

[Gregadd]

I have not heard the Steinhiam. Maybe they will be at this year's CAF.
I could definitely live with the Genesis Tribute.

 

[aangen]

According to Jay.....
Hugh sigh.

 

[tony22]

Hey, even some of us who ignore all of those Utubers (some mentioned, more than others ) thought the Stenheim Ultimes were pretty darn nice.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

One of our Aus dealers here had a demo of these recently, with some lofty priced gear. It was all limited seats, invite only. I couldn't go because my daughter was attended her prize scholarship award, btw her third one since! So proud of bunny!
Few of our good mates did attend though, it was a very hi-fi ish sound. Big, bold and very dynamic, lots of kaboom... that sort of thing, very loud & proud. However, lacked musicality and most of all finesse. Just another big bang for well over half a million bucks (total system cost).

I remember few years ago, during a dealer's private demo on the Magico Q7's, driven with CH Precision gear. It was quite nice, very open and easy to follow musical layers without any fatigue or blurring. Then, that very same system had different types of amplifiers driving the Q7's, CJ's ART300's. Oh my! Now that elevated performance by quite a margin. I guess the room also played a role but those fine CJ ART tube amps made a significant contribution. Just love it! There's another chap on CJO who actually has the Q7's with a full array of CJ's finest, the ART88 preamp and the ART108A monoblocks (160w of pure Class A tube finesse) now that's what I call finesse. And those Q7's are priced less than the Steinham speakers, that's my point.

Either way, Steinham's must be good but I'm not sure about how they compare with most other top end speakers. For that kind of spend there's plenty of fabulous top ones out there, and of course those lovely Genesis Tributes!

Has anyone here heard these Genesis Tributes as yet? Hoping to do so in July, not sure though.

Cheers, RJ

 

[tony22]

In this stratosphere of pricing (Q7 and the likes included), it pretty much comes down to personal preference. I’m guessing (since I’m not up there) at this level, cost may not necessarily the primary driver.

BTW, I’d heard the Q7s here in the States with very likely a similar or identical CH setup (it was being demo’d by Magico). Having not heard it with a CJ setup I can’t say, but while the Q7 was very nice indeed, I preferred what I heard in Chicago from Stenheim / VTL. Going by recent memory of course for the Q7. Wouldn’t say one was objectively better than the other, just preference. Both were super high end good.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, I certainly hope so, especially on those VTL amps. The Steinham's should be pretty darn good... provided the room was well set up. According to U-tuber big Jay, he claimed it was "best of show!" So I'm thinking that VTL plus Steinham combination must have had great synergy.

My good mates who went for our local demo here, said they weren't anything special... in fact both of us own CLX's, so I'm wondering whether that's even a fair comparison to begin with, regardless of price. Full range stats vs dynamic driver types are never a good comparison, just a totally different approach to physics and overall design.

I was just having a quick chat to one of my good old Spore dealer mates. One of them has taken delivery of the Magico Q7 Mk II, which actually goes for around 229grand... hee haw! That's about 45grand upwards from the version 1. If I recall, the Mk I was somewhere in the region of 189/190grand, still that's an awful lot of green notes. Yep, definitely way beyond my humble finances but it's awe-inspiring to experience these systems once in a while.

Still looking forward to those Genesis Tributes though, making lots of phone calls on What's app... very exciting stuff.

As one of my other good mates says, it's always nice to have choices.
Cheers, and enjoy those finest tunes!
Woof! RJ

 

[tony22]

I was set for CAF 2022, where I think the Tributes were being demoed, but an untimely Florida hurricane canceled that trip. Annoying, as I did want to hear them.

 

[Alrainbow]

I have not heard the Steinhiam. Maybe they will be at this year's CAF.
I could definitely live with the Genesis Tribute.

I’m owning the IRS V and hearing Gary’s new revision it was great to me.
its mid and tweets were very musical to me and looks were amazing
the woofer was solid but not smooth always but this is show audio.
I think Gary did an amazing job bringing them up to date but keeping an exacting look. His pic of drivers showed off his design and improvements

 

[Gregadd]

I’m owning the IRS V and hearing Gary’s new revision it was great to me.
its mid and tweets were very musical to me and looks were amazing
the woofer was solid but not smooth always but this is show audio.
I think Gary did an amazing job bringing them up to date but keeping an exacting look. His pic of drivers showed off his design and improvements

I never recall disliking an Arnie Nudell speaker. It is not just Genesis. I have a problem with huge speakers. They are visually intimidating. Near field listening is difficult.
I was glad that Gary kept it in one box and made it comparatively small. My only complaint was to try it with other amplification and digital. It may well be class D is the optimum choice. I don't know.

 

[Alrainbow]

I was in the nordest room had the stienman speakers
went it a few times not for me but was nice I never look for cost on any rooms unless I’m sure of what I hear and have made some notes.
garys is a quasi line source so to me it’s how I like sound to be honest in a room. line source im
In the speaker box per say the rest it’s im
In the room. I know this may not make sense to all.
the point is no or little
Tow on this type.
As for size yes these are more normal and one speaker per side
mine are 4 but I sit back from 8 to 10 feet and if they close my eyes there not there for the most part.
open yes front row at a imax movie lol.

 

[Alrainbow]

I never recall disliking an Arnie Nudell speaker. It is not just Genesis. I have a problem with huge speakers. They are visually intimidating. Near field listening is difficult.
I was glad that Gary kept it in one box and made it comparatively small. My only complaint was to try it with other amplification and digital. It may well be class D is the optimum choice. I don't know.

Well Gary does rooms with others but the class d being used is not the odd of old per say
I heard a demo on a dealer in New Jersey Gary was there playing his one speaker not a tower
I must say it was great to me. Same at last years capital small room upstairs too.
I too would love to hear them on alt amps and preamps too. But that’s hard and not an exmaple
Of wish lol.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I was set for CAF 2022, where I think the Tributes were being demoed, but an untimely Florida hurricane canceled that trip. Annoying, as I did want to hear them.

Damn! I reckon that was a close one mate! Demo on Tributes vs a hurricane... oh boy that would be a difficult choice for me.
Reminds me of one crazy ass time during my student days in IL. Oh man, I won't forget that: so we were heading back from way out town back to Uni. On the way we were glued to our car radio (old Chevy Nova), they were giving updates on severe thunder storms plus a possible hurricane/ tornado... we thought what the heck, we need our beer! Fosters larger! That's our number 1 priority not the storm... so we drove all the way straight to the liquor store. As soon as we got there, the chap was just about to close. We shouted stop the train! We need beers! He said we were both crazy bloody Asians with Aussie accents... anyway as soon as we got back in the car, oh man did the storms hit hard!!! Tree branches were flying left to right in all directions, traffic lights on those high wires were spinning round & round like yoyo's... it hit the fan! We then drove right into a ditch, sort of a bun and waited it out. We saw the twister hovering in the distance but was a fair several 100m from our ditch. As it JUST passed us, we checked if the beers were ok yep all good! Then we drove off back to our Uni. Trees had fallen, roofs damaged, cars windscreens smashed, dorm windows smashed etc., it looked pretty bad. No hurt though, everyone was safe and sound, and most of all our beers were non-damaged, hell yeah!
Cheers to Fosters lager!
RJ