Bar Brawl

[ddk]

I believe Bonzo is suggesting a thread where those who have possibly contentious views can play in a spirit of ....enthusiastic debate. I'll play.
The following is with thanks to the help of 108CY / Mik at Unique Audio, His patience with me is greatly appreciated.


There is very very little on the web that isn't old news about SME 312S or V 12 tonearms. Lets get it out there at the start: IMO, this design from the 1980's is still very relevant today. They are hugely underrated compared to many more modern tonearms. They might be unfashionable, might "sound like Pepsi" compared to a 3012R, but IMO its impossible to generalise about a definitive house sound with this family of arms. The catch is that my perspective on how good they are is SO LONG AS you get a good specific example. They are hugely variable because they are such a complicated arm to build. Ask Mik.

Now, I'm cynical and deeply suspicious of shark hifi dealers. Bitter experience has toght me to trust my ears not what I'm told. Thanks to Mik's help I was able to listen to 4 312S, 2x SME 5 and an SME V12 over a long period of time. NONE OF THEM sounded the same. If I heard a house sound it was a general tendency to control and calmness with reasonable dynamics & low surface noise. Maybe a bit dark. That doesn't tell you much, so what?

Everything else was completely different from example to example. I heard everything from sat on and boring but powerful in the bass, to better and better examples adding openness and sound staging, clarity and power, micro dynamic pop and stunning dynamics. The end point is the aforementioned control and calmness + that lot.

I eventually bought a really good 312S in preference to a 5 or a V12. This replaced my Graham Phantom Supreme. My sample of the 312S is a bit better than the Graham for openness but leaves it whimpering in the gutter for dynamics, micro dynamics, separation, clarity, tonality and focus in the soundstage.
This analysis was with my Koetsu Urushi (which which admission on its own should see me banned by Bonzo ) and a Hana ML.

I've heard other Phantom's and a Glanz, I have a 3012R. No I haven't heard everything. I could say more but I'll leave it there.
I have put on my tin hat and I am running for the hills now...

SME is a world class high end machining and full service precision manufacturer for7 or more decades not some 3rd world shop in a bazaar, the notion of audible sample to sample differences is ridiculous. Take the tonearms apart and you’ll see it’s a simple mechanical assembly there’s nothing mystical about tonearms. This is a product made in thousands and even average manufacturers have standard procedures and jigs for this type of assembly and you believe that a top notch facility like SME doesn’t? Don‘t believe every fib in high end audio !

david

 

[Bobvin]

Interesting article re: “the dark side of the moon” album art… https://www.hifinews.com/content/under-covers-pink-floyds-dark-side-moon

 

[howiebrou]

Btw, there is a very good urushi implementation near kings cross on an FR 66s, if you are ever in London, can hook you up

Jeffrey Archer's?

 

[Chop]

SME is a world class high end machining and full service precision manufacturer for7 or more decades not some 3rd world shop in a bazaar, the notion of audible sample to sample differences is ridiculous. Take the tonearms apart and you’ll see it’s a simple mechanical assembly there’s nothing mystical about tonearms. This is a product made in thousands and even average manufacturers have standard procedures and jigs for this type of assembly and you believe that a top notch facility like SME doesn’t? Don‘t believe every fib in high end audio !

david

Hi David

Of course I respect your opinions which are based on far greater experience than mine. I can only report to the group what I hear - like I said, I listened to SEVEN of them, in my system, with the same cartridges, and they all sounded different. I wasn't told what I was listening for, all Mik said was " see what you think". It was then explained to me why. Of course, you believe what you like.

 

[bazelio]

Hi David

Of course I respect your opinions which are based on far greater experience than mine. I can only report to the group what I hear - like I said, I listened to SEVEN of them, in my system, with the same cartridges, and they all sounded different. I wasn't told what I was listening for, all Mik said was " see what you think". It was then explained to me why. Of course, you believe what you like.

Did you just move the same headshell with pre-mounted cartridge between all seven arms? (I don't even know if that's possible with these arms). Or did you have to realign the cartridge seven times?

 

[Chop]

The 3121S's have detachable headshells and the 5 series and V12 have fixed headshells. Well, one of the 5's was a detachable headshell version.
So I moved the same headshell to different arms where I could and realigned the cartridge each time when I tried a 5.

 

[ddk]

Hi David

Of course I respect your opinions which are based on far greater experience than mine. I can only report to the group what I hear - like I said, I listened to SEVEN of them, in my system, with the same cartridges, and they all sounded different. I wasn't told what I was listening for, all Mik said was " see what you think". It was then explained to me why. Of course, you believe what you like.

Hi Chop,
It’s not what I believe it’s what I know. At any given time I have at least 15 x 3012-Rs setup in my system and swapped out with other ones as they get sold. I’ve been doing this for many years that I’ve lost count, the different sounding ones all either had repairs, were modified with 3rd party parts and/or rewired. Only a in a few cases some had factory silver wiring which sounds different from the usual copper ones. I have gone through a fair number of model IVs & Vs too and never found the sample to sample variation you mention. Without inspecting your tonearms and your setup specially the VTA settings sample variation remains highly unlikely IME. Frankly I know very few people in this forum who‘re capable of accurate VTA setting and even fewer consistently, are you that confident of your own skills not to question the individual VTA setup? How many times did you go back and forth between the 7 tonearms to verify your findings? What was special about your chosen one compared to the rest?

david

 

[Chop]

Hi Chop,
It’s not what I believe it’s what I know. At any given time I have at least 15 x 3012-Rs setup in my system and swapped out with other ones as they get sold. I’ve been doing this for many years that I’ve lost count, the different sounding ones all either had repairs, were modified with 3rd party parts and/or rewired. Only a in a few cases some had factory silver wiring which sounds different from the usual copper ones. I have gone through a fair number of model IVs & Vs too and never found the sample to sample variation you mention. Without inspecting your tonearms and your setup specially the VTA settings sample variation remains highly unlikely IME. Frankly I know very few people in this forum who‘re capable of accurate VTA setting and even fewer consistently, are you that confident of your own skills not to question the individual VTA setup? How many times did you go back and forth between the 7 tonearms to verify your findings? What was special about your chosen one compared to the rest?

david

Hi

I'm not talking about 3012R's.
To try to answer your questions in turn...

Reasonably confident about set up - digital force gauge, playing cards for consistent arm height ( ) setting azimuth, photographing that setting on a circular spirit level, reset for azimuth on each arm.
Back and forth several times - I wasn't counting. It took ages.
My chosen one has a clarity, an openness and micro dynamic "pop" (don't know what else to call it) that the others did not.

 

[tima]

Social distancing is un-natural.

 

[morricab]

Hi David

Of course I respect your opinions which are based on far greater experience than mine. I can only report to the group what I hear - like I said, I listened to SEVEN of them, in my system, with the same cartridges, and they all sounded different. I wasn't told what I was listening for, all Mik said was " see what you think". It was then explained to me why. Of course, you believe what you like.

Have you tried the Tron Voyager? This is a really intriguing amp with only ONE tube in the circuit (and a tube rectifier in the PS). 5 watts is sufficient for your Avantgardes. I am using an amp from Poland that uses this EML 20B as an input/driver tube to an EML 1605 outputs tube (my speakers are 97db and not 100+ like yours) and the sound is very good and transparent. I am tempted to give the Voyager a listen as it still should work fine for most of my listening levels.

 

[Chop]

Have you tried the Tron Voyager? This is a really intriguing amp with only ONE tube in the circuit (and a tube rectifier in the PS). 5 watts is sufficient for your Avantgardes. I am using an amp from Poland that uses this EML 20B as an input/driver tube to an EML 1605 outputs tube (my speakers are 97db and not 100+ like yours) and the sound is very good and transparent. I am tempted to give the Voyager a listen as it still should work fine for most of my listening levels.

I know Tron and use the PX25. Very happy with it now.

 

[morricab]

I know Tron and use the PX25. Very happy with it now.

Cool, I just wanted to know if you had tried the Voyager or not as I saw from your profile you have the PX25.

 

[ddk]

Hi

I'm not talking about 3012R's.
To try to answer your questions in turn...

Reasonably confident about set up - digital force gauge, playing cards for consistent arm height ( ) setting azimuth, photographing that setting on a circular spirit level, reset for azimuth on each arm.
Back and forth several times - I wasn't counting. It took ages.
My chosen one has a clarity, an openness and micro dynamic "pop" (don't know what else to call it) that the others did not.

I know you weren’t discussing the 3012-R but same claim has been made for them elsewhere. That difference you mentioned could be easily attributed to VTA. Playing cards matter if you get each initial VTA dead right, every time individually for every tonearm. I don’t know the circumstances causing it but I believe you heard differences swapping the arms in & out just not for the reason you mention, ie production variation.

david

 

[Lampie519]

Social distancing is un-natural.

That's why we are all together in this Bar-Brawl ....

 

[Al M.]

I know you weren’t discussing the 3012-R but same claim has been made for them elsewhere. That difference you mentioned could be easily attributed to VTA. Playing cards matter if you get each initial VTA dead right, every time individually for every tonearm. I don’t know the circumstances causing it but I believe you heard differences swapping the arms in & out just not for the reason you mention, ie production variation.

david

The audibility of very minimal differences in VTA is astonishing indeed.

 

[Chop]

The audibility of very minimal differences in VTA is astonishing indeed.

Yes it is. Takes ages to be sure what you are hearing.

 

[Al M.]

Interesting article re: “the dark side of the moon” album art… https://www.hifinews.com/content/under-covers-pink-floyds-dark-side-moon

Thanks for that, Bob! There's also an interesting documentary on the making of the album, in the series "Classic Albums":

"Classic Albums" Pink Floyd: Dark Side of the Moon (TV Episode 2006) ⭐ 8.4 | Documentary, Music

49m

m.imdb.com

It should be available for free on Amazon Prime. I've re-watched there with pleasure "Classic Albums -- Paranoid" (Black Sabbath).

 

[Al M.]

One of my absolute favorite episodes of "Classic Albums" is Apostrophe/Overnight Sensation (Frank Zappa). Super informative, gives unique insight into Zappa's genius. With former band members, producers, and Zappa's musician son Dweezil, among others.

 

[tima]

I believe Bonzo is suggesting a thread where those who have possibly contentious views can play in a spirit of ....enthusiastic debate

kinda like audiogon with less dogmatism and better spelling ?

 

[Chop]

Yes that seems to be it