Basic stereo setup, how do you do it, what is important to you?

My room is likewise perfectly symmetrical for the front half of the room over 30ft long room. the front tweeters are 10'6" from the front wall, 10'6" apart and the the same distance to my ears at rested but upright seating position. This covers arrival times but I am very finicky when it comes to image focus. I can get very sharp focus with aggressive toe in but it sounds unnatural to me. Given that each frequency differs in directionality, it is important to me to head for coherence in terms of frequency balance. Aggressive toe in with the VR-9s make the upper bass too prominent. Gradually toeing the speakers out will balance out voices and instruments until I reach a perceived even balance from the highest note in the range to about 45 Hz. Tonal balance coupled with proper distance helps images to lock in better by actually keep the performers grounded as opposed to having all of their notes just floating in thin air as the foundation is as locked in as the higher frequencies. I know I've gone too far with the toe out when halos or auras begin to outline images, like how one sees after a long swim in a chlorinated pool. My end result is usually sharp but not photorealistic sharp. Images are slightly rounded at their outlines and ambient cues fill out the stage both horizontally and vertically oft times extending in front, behind and beyond the farthermost left and right speaker's position.

I do this because it makes it much easier to follow individual instruments, something very difficult if the frequency response of the singer/soloist has obvious bumps or dips that say, make a viola sound like a violin.
 
Late to the party, and as usual I come in an embarrassing costume when it's a audio party. My speakers are the Apogee Scintilla. Among it's other infamous qualities, the Scintilla is wholly different in it's radiation patterns. The 45 feet of tweeter forms a bipole. It radiates a cardiod pattern. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardioid This means the sound is everywhere in equal strength.

To get a speaker to speaker stage requires a central seat like with any other speaker. Just about all dipoles, and my bipole is set up with no toe in. Mine are well away from the wall, 42". They are set up with the mid/tweeter array on the inside. There is a couple feet of space between the side walls and the outside speaker edge. That puts the MRT four feet away. The speakers are separated by 7.5 feet.

They are in a symmetrical room. The ten foot ceilings that are well broken up. The Doug Fir floor is partially covered by two plush rugs. Furniture covers most everything else. The room sounds neutral, even though it is wood paneled to six feet.

The center seat is the left end of a couch. Sorry if that seems uncool. I rarely sit there. The music sounds lovely all over the room. When we watch a movie, we use both couches and a rocker. Everyone has the best seat.
 
I'm listening to Dali MegaLine III's. I abide by the manufacturer's recommendations for placement. When I get the testing apparatus, I will conduct an analysis in the pursuit of quantifying what I perceive, aurally. I would then adjust loudspeaker location with direction from the testing equipment; however, final placement would be to taste...pure, unadulterated, personal preference :D
 
Note: I will be making what I believe to be constructive comments regarding a competitor's product.

My room is likewise perfectly symmetrical for the front half of the room over 30ft long room. the front tweeters are 10'6" from the front wall, 10'6" apart and the the same distance to my ears at rested but upright seating position. This covers arrival times but I am very finicky when it comes to image focus. I can get very sharp focus with aggressive toe in but it sounds unnatural to me. Given that each frequency differs in directionality, it is important to me to head for coherence in terms of frequency balance. Aggressive toe in with the VR-9s make the upper bass too prominent. Gradually toeing the speakers out will balance out voices and instruments until I reach a perceived even balance from the highest note in the range to about 45 Hz. Tonal balance coupled with proper distance helps images to lock in better by actually keep the performers grounded as opposed to having all of their notes just floating in thin air as the foundation is as locked in as the higher frequencies. I know I've gone too far with the toe out when halos or auras begin to outline images, like how one sees after a long swim in a chlorinated pool. My end result is usually sharp but not photorealistic sharp. Images are slightly rounded at their outlines and ambient cues fill out the stage both horizontally and vertically oft times extending in front, behind and beyond the farthermost left and right speaker's position.

I do this because it makes it much easier to follow individual instruments, something very difficult if the frequency response of the singer/soloist has obvious bumps or dips that say, make a viola sound like a violin.

Jack,

You can achieve both coherence in tonal balance as well as pin-point imaging with some experimentation. This principle will work with most speakers like the VR-9's which are pseudo-point-source monopoles.

Your speakers are 10'6" apart and 10'6" from the front wall and 10'6" from your ears which corresponds to a full wavelength at about 106Hz, or half wavelength at about 212Hz (just below middle C). To get photo-realistically sharp images, your two speakers will have to resolve to a single point source in the middle. At 10'6" apart a mono pure sinewave signal of 106Hz from both speakers will exactly cancel in between due to wave interference, and a 212Hz signal will double.

The difficulty you are getting with balancing between the frequency response and imaging is because of the speaker positioning. I'm thinking that this is the case because you are getting halos around images with too much toe-out.

Here's something that you can try.

Get a piece of music with a good double-bass running line - I suggest something by Ray Brown. Move the speakers closer together (in 5mm or 1/4" increments) until every note has the same energy up and down the scale.

Toe the speakers in and out until you get the focus of image you want.
 
Hi Gary,

I'll give anything free a shot. Doubly easy for me since my speakers are in casters. I have been able to get pinpoint imaging but I guess I just prefer slightly softer focus. My difficulty with the midbass integration is when I bi-amp. My bass amps despite having identical input sensitivity with my MT amps are just too much. I need an attenuator. I'm looking at the passive Weiss' unit. Frankly though I'm actually quite satisfied using just the one pair of monos right now. Am I just being too greedy? ;) ;) ;)

Anyway, thanks for the tip, what you described is exactly the process I use. see here:

http://www.wiredstate.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24085

It's a short piece I wrote for newbies at our local forum.

Let me know when you'll be in Manila next time. I missed your last visit at your dealer's shop at Shang Plaza. It would be nice to have you over and exploit your experience ;) ;) ;)

Jack
 
Hi Jack,

Two amps despite having identical input sensitivity, might have different group delay. Hence, by bi-amping with two different amplifiers even from the same manufacturer might completely screw up the loudspeaker designer's work. That is one reason why I object to bi-amping. Attenuation alone may not be sufficient.

Not sure when I will be in Manila next, but when I get there, I'll surely have more listening/tweaking sessions.

Cheers
Gary

p.s. Arnold Martinez says hi. He exhibited with me at RMAF this year
 
Good point Gary. I hadn't thought of that. Say Hi to Arnold for me. That's right. I heard that he'd relocated to Washington State. :)
 
Jack-May I suggest something you already know? Casters are not the ideal footers for speakers.

I can't think of the name but there is a device that allows you to slide furniture around. You could use spikes place a coin under them and set them on the device.

Something like this:
 

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Jack-May I suggest something you already know? Casters are not the ideal footers for speakers.

I can't think of the name but there is a device that allows you to slide furniture around. You could use spikes place a coin under them and set them on the device.

Something like this:

Jack,

You could also consider these from Herbies Audio under the speakers if you wish to slide them into position as well as for de-coupling/isolation:

giantgl.jpg


These are the Giant Fat Gliders but they come in other sizes.

Here is the link to the page:

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm

They work very well and I have them placed below my Custom made Subtraps which sit beneath my 200 pound Epik Conquest 18" subwoofers. They allowed me to move the Subwoofers all over the carpeted room.

Rich
 
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Hi Greg and Rich,

I woudn't know how to get spikes under the VR-9s :( When Mike L owned a pair I believe he mentioned he would have liked spikes too. I've often wondered what improvement I'd get as well. Albert VS designed the 9s and 11s with casters in mind. What I do know is that the contact point of the casters and the floor are very small by the tracks I saw when rolling them along a section of floor where the hardwood turned out to be not as hard as the contractor claimed. Grrrrrrrrr. It has the contact area of a carbide bearing by the looks of 'em. That coupled with the weight (over 350lbs for the Mk.2) keeps the speakers rock steady even when cranked up. With my VR-4 SRs in the HT I use spikes but have a slab of granite underneath to make moving them around easier. I'm kind of OC when it comes to speaker positioning so gliders are a must for me to maintain some semblance of sanity ;)

Jack
 
Anyway, thanks for the tip, what you described is exactly the process I use. see here:

http://www.wiredstate.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24085

It's a short piece I wrote for newbies at our local forum.

Hi Jack,

You talk about the bass guitar and the kick-drum being stacked...... unless you absolutely know that the image is like that in the recording, you might not be getting the optimum result. There are sufficient clues in the music to localize the image of a double-bass.

Try one of the recordings of the Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio on Three Blind Mice. They have diagrams of the where each player/instrument is, and I've found that it can be quite accurately positioned when you have the speakers set up right.
 
 
Hi Jack,

You talk about the bass guitar and the kick-drum being stacked...... unless you absolutely know that the image is like that in the recording, you might not be getting the optimum result. There are sufficient clues in the music to localize the image of a double-bass.

Try one of the recordings of the Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio on Three Blind Mice. They have diagrams of the where each player/instrument is, and I've found that it can be quite accurately positioned when you have the speakers set up right.

I use dubs of tracks I mixed myself :)
 

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