So it's on utility power 100% of the time, an internal converter or rectifier converts the AC input to DC, charges the battery and the inverter converts the DC back to AC? Then, since it's a Uninterruptible Power Supply if the utility power fails it instantly goes to battery until power is restored or a genset comes on line? If so it's a UPS.
Battery Power
- Thread starter Kingrex
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Just a question. Since it is off the grid. Where does the ground wire of the inverter go to?
If you were to perform a code compliant installation with one of these inverter, there is a bond screw on the inverter that would go to the premises ground system. Setting one of these up in a room as stand alone does raise an interesting question. The only time they are connected to the grid is when you plug in the charger.
I would have to dig into my code book and look hard at secondary power sources and see what the bonding requirements are. Off the cuff, I would say a minimum #4 bonding wire would need to come from the premise ground system and bond to the inverter.
I am 100% the belief these systems far exceed anything a Stromtank could wish to offer. And they could power a large stereo for hours on end. It's dependent on battery size. And they are a fraction the cost. But they have to be built up.
I see what you mean by battery cables. If.you were to series batteries, you want bus bars, not soft battery cables between the cells.
Interesting the comment on everything counts. It does, doesn't it.
My comment on cables was how, or what your using to connect the batteries to the inverter. In a setup like this, I imagine an inverter behind.a rack on a wall with soft flexible cables from the battery to the inverter and an 8 Awg wire to a power distribution strip.
If I may ask, what is your secondary? How are you attaching to the secondary and powering your equipment. Did you fuse the secondary. Did you fuse the primary?
Reading through this I think I've taken the thread off on a tangent. What I described is a true online double conversion UPS which is used in IT and other critical power applications. The products in the link you posted don't fit that spec but, within certain limitations they could be used for back up power. For providing battery power to audio gear an inverter with a battery pack and charger may work fine.
It’s still grounded, just like Kingrex said, and when you charge it must be on the grid too.
Something I want to address heads on are the questions on powering amplifiers. Non issue IMHO with 48v, good cells and good inverter. The power is on tap, it’s not something anyone would even question. Including bass, ie slam, speed, extension, control, contouring, decay, delineation… throughout the whole bass FR.
But again everything matters and you need to pay attention to each detail and make sure you use quality components and implementation at each point of the chain, as well as hire the right professionals to do that safely, according to code, and legally. It’s not a trivial endeavor.
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way back when I did data center installs
They used the ultimate ups as mentioned above double conversion
Two sets of batteries , one set is on while the second charges. always on the grid but just to run internal circuit boards and charge batteries. very expensive stuff and back then not a perfect sinusoidal wave but close.
to me regen devices are close enough and have a much more complex power supply.
regrading amps , this becomes a debate and unless you hear the argument it’s moot
small tube amps I can’t see how it can hurt
but large amps big class A draw has its advantages and drawbacks
Big amps do not modulate power as much as a smaller amps overall.
what I mean is % of fluctuations is smaller
anyone’s grid is in most cases way above what we would consider Ina home
freq is very steady and does not vary under varying conditions. voltage does and this is where a regen shines. There are noises on power grides to our house but most does not matter and if one wants better a regen works.
The one thing only a double ups inverter does or if one takes the plug out of the wall on a typical ups is dc offset or sign wave distortion. this is what effects larger amps due to larger wire gauge on transformers
even the distribution transformer for your home is effected.
at this point one must decide what needs to be done not what one wants to be done
They used the ultimate ups as mentioned above double conversion
Two sets of batteries , one set is on while the second charges. always on the grid but just to run internal circuit boards and charge batteries. very expensive stuff and back then not a perfect sinusoidal wave but close.
to me regen devices are close enough and have a much more complex power supply.
regrading amps , this becomes a debate and unless you hear the argument it’s moot
small tube amps I can’t see how it can hurt
but large amps big class A draw has its advantages and drawbacks
Big amps do not modulate power as much as a smaller amps overall.
what I mean is % of fluctuations is smaller
anyone’s grid is in most cases way above what we would consider Ina home
freq is very steady and does not vary under varying conditions. voltage does and this is where a regen shines. There are noises on power grides to our house but most does not matter and if one wants better a regen works.
The one thing only a double ups inverter does or if one takes the plug out of the wall on a typical ups is dc offset or sign wave distortion. this is what effects larger amps due to larger wire gauge on transformers
even the distribution transformer for your home is effected.
at this point one must decide what needs to be done not what one wants to be done
I must confess, I didn't read all the OP's post about his suggested method, but when I got to the part describing a battery-based source of AC, I stopped reading. The question is why supply any audio equipment with AC, when the first thing it does is convert it into DC? No audio circuit needs AC so I see no advantage of starting with DC (the battery), then converting to AC, and then the amp or other deice converts it back to DC!
Isn't it a better solution to use the DC of the battery to directly supply the circuit boards within the amp or other component? This means doing away with the DC to AC converter in the battery box and doing away with the AC to DC converter (the power supply) in the amplifier. No AC = no chance of mains-borne hum.
In practice, this needs messing with the amplifier and ensuring the battery voltage meets the requirement of the audio boards in the amp. Nothing is impossible, but is it really worth the effort and cost? I had a battery-powered amplifier for a while (from Red Wine Audio) that was designed in the first place to run on 12 V DC. Lots of common sense in this method, though they used a somewhat primitive Class D technology that let it down, sound quality-wise. I'd commend this method in theory, though no big brand goes that route.
I have never experienced any problem by using the conventional means of supplying the audio kit with AC directly from the domestic 240 V AC supply and relying on the good engineering within the amplifier to ensure the conversion to DC is done well and that undesirables such as RFI are prevented from doing damage to the signal. All good quality equipment should offer this and the only worthwhile precaution is to use a good quality screened cable between the wall socket and the amp's power input socket - something like Belden 19364. No need to pay daft prices for anything fancier as it'll add nothing to improve sound quality.
That's my experience - others may differ
Isn't it a better solution to use the DC of the battery to directly supply the circuit boards within the amp or other component? This means doing away with the DC to AC converter in the battery box and doing away with the AC to DC converter (the power supply) in the amplifier. No AC = no chance of mains-borne hum.
In practice, this needs messing with the amplifier and ensuring the battery voltage meets the requirement of the audio boards in the amp. Nothing is impossible, but is it really worth the effort and cost? I had a battery-powered amplifier for a while (from Red Wine Audio) that was designed in the first place to run on 12 V DC. Lots of common sense in this method, though they used a somewhat primitive Class D technology that let it down, sound quality-wise. I'd commend this method in theory, though no big brand goes that route.
I have never experienced any problem by using the conventional means of supplying the audio kit with AC directly from the domestic 240 V AC supply and relying on the good engineering within the amplifier to ensure the conversion to DC is done well and that undesirables such as RFI are prevented from doing damage to the signal. All good quality equipment should offer this and the only worthwhile precaution is to use a good quality screened cable between the wall socket and the amp's power input socket - something like Belden 19364. No need to pay daft prices for anything fancier as it'll add nothing to improve sound quality.
That's my experience - others may differ
I don't want to derail down this path. I get the fantasy. But no audiophile is going to open their gear and bypass the power supply. But plenty of people are willing to have a battery and inverter installed to power a stereo.I must confess, I didn't read all the OP's post about his suggested method, but when I got to the part describing a battery-based source of AC, I stopped reading. The question is why supply any audio equipment with AC, when the first thing it does is convert it into DC? No audio circuit needs AC so I see no advantage of starting with DC (the battery), then converting to AC, and then the amp or other deice converts it back to DC!
Isn't it a better solution to use the DC of the battery to directly supply the circuit boards within the amp or other component? This means doing away with the DC to AC converter in the battery box and doing away with the AC to DC converter (the power supply) in the amplifier. No AC = no chance of mains-borne hum.
In practice, this needs messing with the amplifier and ensuring the battery voltage meets the requirement of the audio boards in the amp. Nothing is impossible, but is it really worth the effort and cost? I had a battery-powered amplifier for a while (from Red Wine Audio) that was designed in the first place to run on 12 V DC. Lots of common sense in this method, though they used a somewhat primitive Class D technology that let it down, sound quality-wise. I'd commend this method in theory, though no big brand goes that route.
I have never experienced any problem by using the conventional means of supplying the audio kit with AC directly from the domestic 240 V AC supply and relying on the good engineering within the amplifier to ensure the conversion to DC is done well and that undesirables such as RFI are prevented from doing damage to the signal. All good quality equipment should offer this and the only worthwhile precaution is to use a good quality screened cable between the wall socket and the amp's power input socket - something like Belden 19364. No need to pay daft prices for anything fancier as it'll add nothing to improve sound quality.
That's my experience - others may differ
Thanks
I have not messed with solar equipment in the 10 years since I became certified as an installer.
I watched some video last night and realize how complex a legal installation is today. Tossing a simple sytem based upon a 12 volt 5000VA Giandel and a stand alone brick battery is a pretty primitive path. Simplistic as it may be, people are doing it and enjoying the results. My client is very picky and prefers the sound over from the wall. Even his Gryphon benefits.
The equipent Hificlips is using is far more sophisticated, robust, quiet and safe. But its more complex to install correctly. Its not a set it behind your rack system in a simplistic sense.
Inverters and batteries have to communicate. Batteries are generally packaged with a battery management system to protect against thermal runaway. Many are in modular racks that can be bus barred together. Others in heavy metal unclosures.
I am also looking at the distribution of the load. A 5000va inverter with a 120 volt output is 42 amps. You should not simply send that to a power strip. It should come off the load terminals with #6 wire, into a fused disconnect and from there into appropriate load devices.
If you had a 240 volt ouput, the load could go into one of my all copper QO panels and legally distribute via AFCI to duplex. They could also just leave the inverter and go directly into a Torus wall mount transformer as the Torus has fused inputs. That would be an amazing power supply.
I am checking with the solar manufacturer on what types of loadside distribution they offer. I assume there are some 120 volt only. But I'm not sure they have AFCI. There is a bit to figure out.
Technically there needs to be placards at the utility meter as well as a shutoff switch the fire department can use to deenergize the system if there were a fire.
Rex
I watched some video last night and realize how complex a legal installation is today. Tossing a simple sytem based upon a 12 volt 5000VA Giandel and a stand alone brick battery is a pretty primitive path. Simplistic as it may be, people are doing it and enjoying the results. My client is very picky and prefers the sound over from the wall. Even his Gryphon benefits.
The equipent Hificlips is using is far more sophisticated, robust, quiet and safe. But its more complex to install correctly. Its not a set it behind your rack system in a simplistic sense.
Inverters and batteries have to communicate. Batteries are generally packaged with a battery management system to protect against thermal runaway. Many are in modular racks that can be bus barred together. Others in heavy metal unclosures.
I am also looking at the distribution of the load. A 5000va inverter with a 120 volt output is 42 amps. You should not simply send that to a power strip. It should come off the load terminals with #6 wire, into a fused disconnect and from there into appropriate load devices.
If you had a 240 volt ouput, the load could go into one of my all copper QO panels and legally distribute via AFCI to duplex. They could also just leave the inverter and go directly into a Torus wall mount transformer as the Torus has fused inputs. That would be an amazing power supply.
I am checking with the solar manufacturer on what types of loadside distribution they offer. I assume there are some 120 volt only. But I'm not sure they have AFCI. There is a bit to figure out.
Technically there needs to be placards at the utility meter as well as a shutoff switch the fire department can use to deenergize the system if there were a fire.
Rex
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4000 Watt Pure Sine Inverter Charger 12Vdc / 120Vac Input & 120/240Vac Split Phase Output
We offer a 4000 Watt 12 Volt Pure Sine Inverter Charger 120/240 Vac that charges at 120 Vac.www.aimscorp.net
This may be better. Lower distortion than the industrial unit. Not fully sure without calling.
If I'm reading this correctly, with 240 volt split phase out, it could be wired to a copper loadcenter to keep the equipment out of the room and only duplex in the wall. But really, if I was going that route, I would use a Victron with 20,000 watts output.
How many Batteries are you planning on using to maintain and charge for this setup?
IMO you would have to be experiencing some serious noisy wall power to use or need this and would never plug main amps into one , front end low voltage or PC based stuff , OK ..!
A pure Sinewave UPS should be good for such..
I agree no one is going down that route, but converting DC to AC and back again is surely not the best solution. It's like sending an analogue signal to digital and back again - never a good idea!
I was really asking why so few amp builders don't offer a DC supply socket if it was beneficial. Some (eg Naim) offer a power supply upgrade consisting of a fancy external power supply that sends the DC to the back of the amp. Perhaps this amp socket could be supplied with direct DC from a battery rather than from the over-priced Naim power box? I use Naim as an example but several other high end brands also offer this.
...regarding battery operated audio equipment, we have observed how challenging it is to ship devices with batteries. Taiko Audio is using a specially licensed company, certified to safely ship hazardous materials. And then there's the weight.
A DC input fixture might be a way forward, but it might also yield uncontrollable quality concerns, as users may use different batteries, amps, etc. as their source.
It will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.
A DC input fixture might be a way forward, but it might also yield uncontrollable quality concerns, as users may use different batteries, amps, etc. as their source.
It will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.
I started this thread to communicate with people who are using batteries or venturing into it. I want to see how they are aproaching it and what matters. What manufacturer they use. What code compliant materials are available. How they are setting them up.
If you believe your wall power is perfectly adequate, get rid of your Shunyata, AQ, Torus, Equitech, Stromtank, P10 filters. Ditch them all. There is nothing wrong with utility power. Right. Its clean.
FWIW I did not start this thread with the intent of assisting audiophiles in the future to utilize battery power. I am not packaging materials for sale or creating a consulting gig around it. I am not testing everything out there to determine what is best.
It's easy to make a budget setup. Role a device like the Goal Zero, Dakota Lithium, Bluetti, Ecoflow into your room and plug it in. Some say with a.Puritan plugged into it, they voice as good as a Stromtank.
I am investigating this because I believe a well executed battery system has potential to far exceed utility wall power. If this is the case, then yes, it would negate the need to upgrade your electrical beyond having a appropriate charging circuit at the rack.
My vision is something along the lines of
304 AH class A Lithium battery bank. $2800.
5000 or 10,000 watt 120 volt x 2 Victron inverter. $3400.
SqD QO all copper distribution panel.
Unfiltered duplex 4 to room.
Rack Mount Torus or other.
If you believe your wall power is perfectly adequate, get rid of your Shunyata, AQ, Torus, Equitech, Stromtank, P10 filters. Ditch them all. There is nothing wrong with utility power. Right. Its clean.
FWIW I did not start this thread with the intent of assisting audiophiles in the future to utilize battery power. I am not packaging materials for sale or creating a consulting gig around it. I am not testing everything out there to determine what is best.
It's easy to make a budget setup. Role a device like the Goal Zero, Dakota Lithium, Bluetti, Ecoflow into your room and plug it in. Some say with a.Puritan plugged into it, they voice as good as a Stromtank.
I am investigating this because I believe a well executed battery system has potential to far exceed utility wall power. If this is the case, then yes, it would negate the need to upgrade your electrical beyond having a appropriate charging circuit at the rack.
My vision is something along the lines of
304 AH class A Lithium battery bank. $2800.
5000 or 10,000 watt 120 volt x 2 Victron inverter. $3400.
SqD QO all copper distribution panel.
Unfiltered duplex 4 to room.
Rack Mount Torus or other.
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Maybe this is a better route… a whole house setup…
This is where I started the thread and noted a client liked the Goal Zero. I think a $2400 unit with a 90AH battery would be excellent for someone in a situation where they can not upgrade their electrical circuits to the room. Role one in place, plug a Torus or Puritan into its 30A outlet and you have very good power.
I have heard of Stromtank damaging amps. So there is some concern with a budget inverter.
I have little to no concern putting the highest power amps on a commercial grade unit like Victron. You can build up to 400A worth of power in split or 3 phase. They are far more robust. They are designed to power entire home loads. This is the route that interests me. I want to supercede what you can get from the road.
Part of why I find this intriguing is RF has very little room to couple on the power side. Your completely isolated from noise on the utility. You can build a power supply with no aluminum. All copper. The harmonic noise is lower than any reading I have seen in a home. Lightning and brown outs have no affect on it. The technology is mature enough to in my opinion superceed power generated by a turbine. And its not that much money. Less than a Shunyata filter.
A 300AH battery pack will power a massive stereo with a resting 1000 watt dissipation of power for close to 40 hours. With a 30A charge port at the room, you would be 100% in 5 hours.
Actually the integrated power panel I designed in conjunction with Benjamin Electric would be a perfect match for a setup like this. And it could all sit in the room and be UL/NEC compliant.
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