Battery Power

[Kingrex]

My problem is the intermediate blackouts here, I like the ecoflo panel as it switches over in zero time, a millisecond. I tend to leave my rig on 24/7. I admit, I just started looking into this, so I am not up to speed on the various solutions.

It won't switch in 1ms. Its more like 20.
You have to consider your budget and what you want to backup. Do you need the transfer switch.

The marketing material makes it look easy. Code is going to throw wrenches into any installation that has a transfer switch and ties to utility power.

Using it for audio is a different subject.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

or maybe a small one of these

My Son is a lead researcher on Molten Salt reactors at Norte Dame.

 

[Kingrex]

Exeltech makes intetesting inverters. Modules. There is a controller that has no load to impact the sine wave. The actual inverters are rack.mount modules that are either 1000 or 2000 watt per. Stack 4 of the 2000 and you have a 8000 watt inverter. Less than 2% thd. More like 1.5%. 4 modules holding the wave. Rock solid. If 1 fails, they hot swap. Pull it out, put a new one in. No interruption in power.

 

[Hear Here]

I am investigating this because I believe a well executed battery system has potential to far exceed utility wall power. If this is the case, then yes, it would negate the need to upgrade your electrical beyond having a appropriate charging circuit at the rack.

My vision is something along the lines of
304 AH class A Lithium battery bank. $2800.
5000 or 10,000 watt 120 volt x 2 Victron inverter. $3400.
SqD QO all copper distribution panel.
Unfiltered duplex 4 to room.
Rack Mount Torus or other.

Speak with any boat owner with an inverter system such as Victron or Mastervolt - both excellent Dutch companies. As someone who has had both these brands on my boats, there are disadvantages compared with conventional mains. Some appliances jibe at the power supply and won't work as they should. I've not tried them with audio (apart from the boat's radio / CD players), but for example more sensitive things such as induction hobs are often unhappy with inverter-supplied power. Don't ask me why or whether it's to do with voltage or frequency fluctuations, but I suggest you try-before-you-buy in view of their significant cost. I guess a good amp's internal power supply can cope with variations such as these, so perhaps they'll happily reverse the inverter job and convert the AC to back to DC for the audio circuits.

 

[Kingrex]

Whats an induction hob. A cook top? Sizing is important. Thats the beauty of the Exeltech. Drop in modules to increaae output.

Look, most everyone finds filters improve front end performance. Not all. But most. Even I find with the best all copper power supply I can make, Torus filters improve most equipment. Especially higher power SS amps.

I don’t know why filters work. But I recognize their value.

I also hear from a lot of people that can't get circuits to their room, and they have a common 14 awg wire. They need more power.

I am seeing a possibility that 3 relatively beefy boxes can be teathered together with good wire to make a stand alone power supply. It could look pretty cool. The charge circuit could be set up via a 30A twist lock to the wall. Batteries could be connected via a welding connector. Outlets can legally be mounted to a small QO panel for distribution behind the rack. SJO cable with a welding connector could attach the panel to the inverter. . Your basically making a stromtank out of 3 pieces that has unlimited power and a much larger inverter.

 

[Kingrex]

I did some digging on Exeltech.
Incredibly robust and redundant.
Scalable.
Very expensive.
To have a split phase output of 50A per phase. 120/240. Basically 100A potential in the subpanel.
Cost would be about $14,000 just for the inverter. And its a rack mount. You would want something like a pro audio cabinet to hold it and keep the cabling clean and covered.
Then you need batteries and a distribution panel. Kind of a big pile of stuff in a room. Better in an adjacent space. IMO

 

[Kingrex]

If I wanted a simple drop behind the rack unit, I would seriously consider the Exeltech XP2000. $1930.

2000 Watt Pure Sine Wave Power Inverter: Remote Controlled Power

Exeltech’s 2k watt XP series power inverter provides clean low distortion AC output featuring: remote on off switch and a thermostat controlled cooling!

exeltech.com

Its built to be direct wired out. I would have a nice cord made and wire out to a power strip. Or, a hard wire to the inverter with a 20A IEC to fit a Torus RM20 or Shunyata XXX.

The other end takes a single 48V battery. I would get something like a Dakota Lithium. About $3500 with charger.

Dakota Lithium 48V 100Ah LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery Set

Dakota Lithium 48V deep cycle battery for your solar energy storage, electric outboard motors, golf carts, or any 48V application. 8x longer life with 11 years warranty.

dakotalithium.com

Very simple. Get 2 setup if needed. 1 for amps and 1 for front end.

$5500 per branch of power at the rack. Plus any filters.

If you bought 2, It would be like paying an electrician $11,000 to run 2 circuits.

Another battery option. Excellent battery.

ABYSS® 48V 105Ah Lithium Golf Cart Battery

Introducing the new ABYSS® 48V 105Ah Lithium Golf Cart Battery, the perfect combination of efficiency and power. Purchase yours for the course today!

www.abyssbattery.com

 

[Kingrex]

I was reading sbout the Stromtank S5000. What stood out is:
100AH battery.
750VA continues output
2% or less Harmonic Dist.
$31,500.

The Exeltech package above
100AH battery
2000 Watt continuous output.
As volt amp at .8 power factor = 2500VA continuous output.
Less than.2% thd. Generally .8% to 1%.
$5500.

I don't know. Lots of people like their Stromtank as a filter. Totally immune to voltage fluxuations or noise on a power line. Immune to lightning. Lots of reasons to like it.

You can assemble a few parts for 1/6th the price and be using arguably better parts. It does not look the part of a $300,000 stereo system. But performance wise????? Exeltech XP2000 is a far more robust and equally quiet inverter. Lighter and easier to move. Less room behind the rack. Modular batteries.

The package above would be great for shows. Bring a spare battery and swap them out every 3 hours to recharge. No connection to hotel power.

 

[nyev]

I’m Kingrex’s client experimenting with a Goal Zero 1500X, as referenced in the first post. Purchased a Goal Zero after seeing the Enjoy the Music review claiming that a tiny Goal Zero model was sonically equivalent to a Stromtank 2500. I’m not sure if the reviewer had both at the same time to compare or not though.

After years of fighting spells of bad AC power that not only degrades my system but completely ruins the experience, the Goal Zero appears to be the solution. I’ve been floored by the sound I get after midnight and frustrated by how it sounds at dinner time. During some periods I’ve encountered weeks long periods of compressed, distorted, flat (2D), plodding sound - this is not an exaggeration.

Tried numerous conditioners, isolation transformers and upgraded components, and as Rex noted he helped me spec out two dedicated 10AWG 20A lines. All of this made my system sound even better at times that power was great but just made the gap wider and more obvious when it was not.

I have a Puritan 156 with a Network Acoustics Tempus switch, Innuos PhoenixUSB Reclocker, and Mola Mola Tambaqui, and a Zahl HM1 headphone amp / preamp connected to the Puritan, with the Puritan into the Goal Zero. I have an Innuos Zenith Mk3 plugged directly into one of my dedicated 12A lines. I have a Gryphon Essence connected to my second 20A line.

I had to play around with the combinations to get the sound right. All devices into the Puritan into the Goal Zero were a touch lean and clean. But definitely solved for the power issues, with totally consistent performance through the day! This confirmed that my amp was less susceptible to bad power as it was still plugged into the wall.

Not sure why but I get an improved and a seemingly perfect balance plus 95% of the benefits of the Goal Zero when I move my Innuos streamer directly to the wall. So far this is the best setup I’ve tried. VERY happy with the sound like this and “dinner time power”, while noticeable, still sounds great. Sound is detailed, has depth, stable and solid images, great tonal balance, seperation, and it’s musically engaging with great “flow”.

Of note I don’t notice any degradation in sound whatsoever when it’s charging. And I’m VERY sensitive to minor changes typically.

As Rex said the system was a revelation when I connected the Gryphon to it. Could very well be the best sound I’ve ever heard. I expected a loss in dynamics but I couldn’t detect any whatsoever. Sound was up close, personal, large scale, and so natural and inviting. Never heard anything like it.

I was about to ask Rex for a refund for helping with my AC lines now that my system was entirely off grid, when my dreams were shattered. The Goal Zero fan engaged quite often with my power hungry class A Gryphon connected to it. The fan is loud, but it only stays on for 30s or so at a time.

So, I will stick with my front end gear connected to the Puritan and to the GZ for now, and the Innuos streamer and Gryphon amp connected direct to the wall. The fan still engages but only for 30s once every few hours.

I’m happy. Been chasing this issue for years! Will eventually try the components to a power distributor without filtration in place of the Puritan to the GZ to test the effect of the Puritan and whether it is additive or not.

I know you can get further with batteries and an inverter but this is convenient, it solves my problem, it sounds great and it fits my space.

 

[nyev]

One more thing. The display on the Goal Zero and the phone App are very handy. Can view current and power input and output, time to charge, time to discharge, etc. And you can customize the min, max and charging threshold. I have mine set to repeatedly cycle charging from 76-80%, so it charges more frequently and briefly. Not sure if that’s a good idea but seems like it?

All this doesn’t help to make my system better but it’s handy.

 

[Kingrex]

Great feedback nyev.
I hope people properly digest what your experiencing in relation to what your using.
You have I think a 1500 watt version. Yours only has 15A duplex outlets.
There is a pro 4000 that has 3500 watts output and a much larger battery. In addition, the pro 4000 has a 30A 120 volt plug. Its meant to connect to a RV or a transfer switch for home backup. That my friends strikes me as the perfect place to land a custom power cord the use.the 30A output and direct connect to your favorite filter or a Torus.
The Goal Zero and others like it have potential to be very good devices to isolate from dirty power. At $2549 each, think what you could do.

There is the fan. All inverters have fans. The better inverter will have a fan on a speed controller. This one is loud. Can a shield be built.

Batteries as well as inverters have sounds. From what I have read, GZ has a good sound compared to others in the same price.

Stand alone inverters apparently sound better.
Heat dissipation can be better so.less fan noise.
Better batteries.
Lower noise in power supply.

I think the package I noted with the Exeltech and Abyss battery would power any front end or any single good sized amp.
I believe you get what you pay for to a degree. Exeltech is a solid inverter with good specs. The battery is excellent with longer tated life.
I still think all of these will perform at their highest level with some filter or isolation.transformer connected to them.

 

[Kingrex]

SOK 48V 100Ah PRO Server Rack Battery - User Serviceable

SOK 48V Server Rack Battery: 4000+ cycle life, UL1973 & UL9540A certified, UL9540 pending, Built-In Smart BMS, 10 year warranty & support!

www.currentconnected.com

Here is a nice grade A+ UL listed battery in a metal case. 100AH at 48 volt. $1250.
Connect this to any inverter. Days of play time.
Put 1 or 2 of these in your garage. Use 2 Victron 3000 to 5000 Watt inverters for about $4000 a pair. Feed load into a QO panel.
You now have a totally off grid, immune from dirty power, brown outs, lightning proof power suppy for any size stereo. Duel Victron inverters making 240 volt 50 amp per leg means 1 inverter for front end, 1 for amps. Total isolation between components.
Were talking around $6000 to have a stand alone off grid power with less than 2% thd at full power.

4000 cycles means 11 years of music all day every day. At 11 years, the batteries will still charge to 80%. So you have an 80AH battery. Thats still music all day.

 

[Kingrex]

Victron Lynx Distributor

A modular DC distribution busbar, with locations for four DC MEGA fuses. It will monitor the status of each fuse, and indicate its condition with a LED on the front.

bluemarine.com

Here is another idea. This is a fused distribution bus bar. This would attach to the SOK 100AH battery box with a 100A fuse.
The distribution box has spaces for 1 to 4 x 20A or larger fuses. This allows 1 to 4 branch wires to reach out to a stand alone Exeltech MP2000 inverter. 1 large battery serving dedicated loads. Amps on 1 to 2 depending on power. 2 more for front end or subs.
They can be ganged for more outputs. But I would get a second battery if I needed that much power.

Lets say your in Texas with crap power. You have Gryphon monoblocks. I would dedicate a battery and a inverter to each monoblock. I would dedicate a battery and inverter to the front end. 3 batteries. 3 inverters.

Say I have a CH Precision M10 mono with 2 x.20A plugs per monoblock. I would have 2 batteries with 2 Exeltech. That's a total of 4 inverters over 2 batteries. Massive power. Massive current delivery. This is the same battery power as 2 stromtank s5000. But you have 5000 volt amps power available vs the Stromtanks 1500. Thats more than 3 x the current delivery. A 3rd battery and output would go to the front end. Thats 4 to 5 times the current to your stereo. And these inverters are arguably better quality with higher output and lower noise.

At this scale, you could put the gear out of the room and run 2 x 10,000 watt inverters as 240 volt and distribute through a QO panel to outlets in the room. You have 2 isolated phase legs with 83 amps per phase. Spread the amps on both phases and spread the front evenly over both. Or run a 3rd stand alone inverter for the front.

Lots of options. The point being, you can take yourself off dirty utility power and have limitless power for the largest stereo out there. Immune from noise, voltage sags and lightning.

 

[Kingrex]

Here is a good anecdotal story with pictures to go along with the build.

Inverter Power

Enjoy The Music review says a small Goal Zero is indistinguishable from a Stromtank S2500.

Goal Zero Yeti 400 Lithium Portable Power Station Battery power comparo with Goal Zero Yeti 400, PS Audio DirectStream Power Plant 20 (P20) and Stromtank S2500. Review By Tom Lyle

Goal Zero Yeti 400 Lithium Portable Power Station Battery power comparo with Goal Zero Yeti 400, PS Audio DirectStream Power Plant 20 (P20) and Stromtank S2500. Review By Tom Lyle of Enjoy the Music.com

enjoythemusic.com

That Goal Zero performance is soundly trounced by a stand alone Giandel.

Anyone challenged by poor power? I believe battery power is going to take the stage once people get over their preconceived ideas.

 

[Kingrex]

NOTE:
If someone were to be opening walls and easy access is available to bring dedicated branch circuits to the audio room, absolutely take advantage of it. It would be a mistake to not run #10 wire.

If one were deciding whether to open a lot lf walls at high expense to get circuits from the panel to the room, I would first investigate a battery/inverter.

 

[Kingrex]

Wow. Being laid up with a disc herniation has provided too much time to research. Lots to know and similar to a tooth extraction with no pain kilkers.

What I'm finding is there are 2 major categories of inverters. They are either low frequency or high frequency. The difference is that high frequency will use two sets of mosfet to generate an ac signal and boost it to the appropriate output voltage. Low frequency inverters also use a mosfet to create a ac sine, but use a large isolation transformer to boost the voltage.

The low frequency inverters first mosfet may operate in the gigahertz region and the second set, around 20 to 25khz.

The low frequency inverters mosfet also operate around 20 to 25khz and hand about 20 to 40 volts ac, depending on the battery to the step up transformer.

High frequency inverters seemed to hold a very stable sine wave. But if you overtax the system, it can completely collapse. High freq inverters have 2 x peak power but only hold for 1/2 a second or so.

Low frequency inverters have higher distortion levels. But the sine wave wont completely collapse if overburdened. Low frequency have peak power 3 times rates output and can hold it for 20 seconds.

I am in discussions with 3 companies to find the best inverter and to try and get a distributor license.

I wish Shunyata would consider me for a dealer. All people using these systems use a Puritan 156 or a shunyata. Honestly, I don't know where Shunyata filters. The puritan is 57 db at 20khz. A perfect match for the inverters mosfet operating frequench. I want to test a Torus. But they are only 8 db down at 20khz.
Any of these inverters I would make some minor modifications too. I would also create a battery strap to attach the inverter to battery. As well as a ground strap to bond the inverter to the house ground. And a complete spec on proper instalation.

As I find more I will post. I hope to have one in my hands in the next couple months and into a couple systems to test its performance in a variety of locations.

The topology will be either a in room single phase 120 volt setup with a 3000 watt to 4000 watt inverter. The second will be a 12,000 to 18,000 watt 240 volt inverter in another room with one of my all copper panels distributing the power to duplex in the room. 18,000 watt is 75 amps per 120 volt leg. That will power any stereo of any scale. Totally isolated from the grid. Immune from lightning and blackouts. Very quiet and dynamic.

More to come as it unfolds.
Rex

 

[Kingrex]

My god there is a lot to know about batteries and grounding. Very easy to screw up and damage your gear or get poor results. I'm basically getting a Victron certification. Many many hours of courses to take.

If I decide to package something because it.works, people could cut me out of the loop and buy direct. But I have weeks of reaearch into how to wire this stuff up correctly and I'm still learning. Good luck doing right with casual reading.

 

[Rob181]

I wish you all the best in this endeavour @Kingrex & thank you for sharing your knowledge as you learn more...

 

[acg]

@Kingrex

I have a Victron off-grid battery based system with solar charging. It is setup for the entire office, which just happens to be where the system also resides. It is certainly better sounding during the day even when solar charging is concurrently occuring, when compared to running off the grid power, but is better at night when the sun is below the horizon. Our grid here in Australia is likely much more consisent than in the US.

There is a huge balanced isolation transformer not yet connected to the circuit which I expect will reduce or eliminate the sound disparity that occius when the sun is out. Others experience with this custom transformer has been transformative (pun intended). It uses inductive and capacitive filtering post the transformer to further attenuate any noise, and I would not be surprised if it also improves sound at night.

LiFePO4 batteries 19.2kW @ 80% DOD
9.36kW solar, mostly using microinverters
Victron 48/10000 10kW inverter
Completely off-grid
When balanced isolation transformer is connected a separate earthing rod will also be connected.

System is mostly tubes and horns and draws a consistent almost 2kW mainly due to the pair of six channel SET amps that (of course) run in Class A, not to mention the tube dac, tube phono, DHT preamp and all the other solid-state electronics. On work days the off-grid system also runs six computers and the air-conditioning.

It's now been raining here for two days straight and the system is down to about 60% battery remaining. There have been a few patches of sunlight but not many, and the audio system runs about 15 hours every day.

 

[Hear Here]

System is mostly tubes and horns and draws a consistent almost 2kW mainly due to the pair of six channel SET amps that (of course) run in Class A, not to mention the tube dac, tube phono, DHT preamp and all the other solid-state electronics. On work days the off-grid system also runs six computers and the air-conditioning.

So, no need for central heating then? What about air conditioning in summer?

It still seems rather counter-intuitive to start with DC (from the battery, however it is charged), then convert it to AC, and then back to the DC that the amps require.

A few amp brands (Naim for example) have a choice of power supply options. As they stand, the house AC is connected and the internal power supply converts to the DC voltage required by the electronics. At a big extra cost, an extra box can be added that is effectively an external power supply that does the AC-DC conversion away from the amp's electronics. There is a cable between the power supply and the amp to carry this DC. Why shouldn't one mimic this arrangement by sending DC from a battery directly to the electronics, this avoiding DC > AC > DC conversion?

I appreciate that tube amps require more than a single DC voltage so this sort of power supply wouldn't work, but with ss it should be a preferred method if hum and RFI--free sound is the reason for looking at alternatives to house AC.