Battery Power

[Kingrex]

You could build it all into a class D amp chassis. Ralphs amps are small. You just need a big box.

Heck, ASR Amir says all filters are expectation bias and we don't need them. The power supply in our equipment is actually acting as a filter for noise. So there is that too.

 

[Hear Here]

Imagine telling your customers its up to them to buy a big a$$ battery to power their amp. Where do they put them. DC cables should be measured in inches. Not feet. And each battery is $2000. And at 12 volts, you need 4 for any play time.

With respect, that is nonsense. The Red Wine Signature amp I owned used a small battery within its standard amp-size enclosure and this provided power for several hours of listening. At the end of a session, or if the battery became discharged, the internal power supply could be switched on to recharge the battery or directly supply the amp in the same way most other amp power supplies do.

Batteries cost is nothing like $2000 - why should they? A first-class 12V battery of the Ah capacity needed for a preamp, DAC, streamer, or Class D amp for a few hours' use would be small enough to tuck behind the amp or even within its case if designed to take such a battery.

Have you read what I'm posting? Wire them wrong and they will charge incorrectly. Might even catch one on fire if you do something stupid.

Yes, and that's precisely why I'm trying to help you. There is no need for fires, explosions or whatever if you have a battery in your audio gear, any more than there is to have a battery in your car. I'm agreeing with you that batteries are in theory a great way of powering your gear, but not if you convert their DC to AC and then back to DC. That would cost a lot and would add nothing comparted with the AC to DC conversion done by a conventional amp with a high quality internal (or even external) power supply. Use your DC to deliver DC straight to the circuit, but only if the amp lends itself to such a conversion.

 

[Kingrex]

With respect, that is nonsense. The Red Wine Signature amp I owned used a small battery within its standard amp-size enclosure and this provided power for several hours of listening. At the end of a session, or if the battery became discharged, the internal power supply could be switched on to recharge the battery or directly supply the amp in the same way most other amp power supplies do.

Batteries cost is nothing like $2000 - why should they? A first-class 12V battery of the Ah capacity needed for a preamp, DAC, streamer, or Class D amp for a few hours' use would be small enough to tuck behind the amp or even within its case if designed to take such a battery.


Yes, and that's precisely why I'm trying to help you. There is no need for fires, explosions or whatever if you have a battery in your audio gear, any more than there is to have a battery in your car. I'm agreeing with you that batteries are in theory a great way of powering your gear, but not if you convert their DC to AC and then back to DC. That would cost a lot and would add nothing comparted with the AC to DC conversion done by a conventional amp with a high quality internal (or even external) power supply. Use your DC to deliver DC straight to the circuit, but only if the amp lends itself to such a conversion.

With respect, your not trying to help anyone. Your all fluffed up on your personal ego, using the thread I started to postulate some dream amp that you will never build. I will build a battery/inverter power supply and others may follow suit if it performs well, as it can be done. And it can be done safely. There are millions of battery powered backup systems in people homes around the world.
No one is going to disect their equipment and bypass the internal power supply to feed it with a battery. Thats a stupid idea. Even Vinnie and Jeff abandoned the idea. Or it didn't catch on.

Please start your own thread about internal battery powered audio equipment if you like. See if it catches peoples attention. I doubt it will. It would be nice if you dropped your pipe dream from this thread. Your flogging a dead horse.

 

[Hear Here]

Please start your own thread about internal battery powered audio equipment if you like. See if it catches peoples attention. I doubt it will.

I'm sure it wouldn't catch on any more than your plan to deliver power via a costly charger / battery / inverter method. I have no intention of powering my gear by batteries. If it was viable or advantageous and had merit, I suspect it would have been widely adopted by now.

I'll leave you to explore the idea further and wish you well.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...with recent battery chemistry and management tech strategies, IMO some of the hurdles have been removed/overcome re: SQ to run components by integrated battery. Or perhaps external boxes mated to the specific components.

That said, I think the compliance and weight aspects remain unattractive for most manufacturers. It's a lot to learn and it's a new paradigm. And not many audio people are clamoring for it, IMO. Eventually, I think we'll see more of it. I'm listening to the one-day-old Taiko Olympus on battery and it's fab.

Would need something akin to Rex's proposition for the rest of the gear. FWIW, I tried the Stromtank here 2-3 years? ago when it came out, and it was not better than the wall and TT7 here. A parallel move for 35K, so didn't make sense to me.

 

[Crom]

This is a really interesting thread - thank you @Kingrex and the other contributors here, I’m learning a lot. My experience echoes a lot of the experiences here. (Please note, I’m in the UK where the supply is somewhere between 240v and 250v - most of the time - and at 50Hz). About 14 years ago I started with standard wall feed and then upgraded the sockets followed by a dedicated 20A feed for my whole system - this seems to be the standard progression. I then doubled the number of feeds and then tripled it to three separate feeds and got the house fuse upgraded to 100A. Every time I noticed an improvement albeit with diminishing returns. I then introduced an 84KG Westwick 8kVa balanced transformer (http://www.one4power.co.uk/westwick.pdf) which powered the entire system at 115v+115v. This was a significant improvement, presumably a combination of the isolating effect of the transformer and the balanced supply. I then tested powering the front end (streamer and pre) with the balanced unit and the amps directly from mains, using 1 x 20A feed each.

I started to explore large UPSs and did some experiments with replacing the balanced transformer entirely, or adding a UPS behind the transformer. Where I am today is that I am running the whole system from a 20kW Eaton UPS: https://www.eaton.com/gb/en-gb/skuPage.9PXM22KIRTN.html . I removed the balanced power unit from the system entirely but after some back and forth, I decided to continue to run the front end components using balanced power with the UPS powering the transformer and both amps. This is sounding fantastic! Truly: Drum thwacks that you feel in your chest, not because they’re loud, but because they are so instant/percussive/real but a light, delicacy to the sound that is difficult to describe. I run the system connected to the mains for most of the time but there is a minor improvement if I switch the mains off and run from battery. After about 4 hours the batteries are at 70% so it’s more than practical for me.

My battery journey hasn’t just been in the form of power. I’ve been using 3.3v Lifepo batteries for about 10 years now to power clocks, USB cards, network cards, solid state drives and pretty much anything I could get to work. I am firmly convinced that they produce the best ‘sounding’ power. Taiko has obviously borne this out with their latest creation.

For the last year I have been thinking about where to try for further improvement. My issues to solve are:

• I’m using lead acid batteries which I know don’t produce such good results as lithium
• The UPS is high frequency and I want to move to a low frequency transformer-based inverter
• I want to be able to switch the charger element out of circuit entirely when playing and all the inverters that I can find appear to be charger/inverters.

I’m lucky enough to have a basement under my sitting room where the sound system is (not entirely lucky, as the wooden floorboards resonate, but that’s a different story!) and therefore I have space to spread things out. 5m feeds are as long as it gets between the current UPS and either amp and I keep the cables all the same length.

I’ve been looking into inverters. Studer Innotec measure very well but Victron are more available (and have some heritage in this use case: https://www.livingvoice.co.uk/lv-battery-power-supply.html) but finding assistance with designing the system let alone installing it is proving difficult in the UK. When I start to specify particular breakers or cables I get odd looks ;-)

@acg if you don't mind, did you spec any particular type of circuit breakers or cabling, other than 6mm T&E?

@Hificlips I'd love to know more specifics about your installation if you are happy to share? What inverter cabling are you using? What's the circuit from the inverter like? Do you have an isolation switch and then into a consumer unit?

Thanks for reading!
Crom

 

[Rob181]

@acg from your voltage and cabling description I'm guessing you are in UK? If you don't mind, did you spec any particular type of circuit breakers or cabling, other than 6mm T&E?

Hi - @acg lives in Australia - he is also very knowledgeable & an absolute gentleman...

 

[Crom]

Hi - @acg lives in Australia - he is also very knowledgeable & an absolute gentleman...

Thanks @Rob181 I appreciate the correction.

 

[Kingrex]

I have someone who wants me to design a battery system for them. I'm hesitant. I have not done it myself. I like to touch things to understand them.
I also have not figured out how to monetize my work. How long it will take me. What I need to compile to make the job perform at a consistent level. And I have enough experience with electricians to know they many times do what they know how to do, and avoid what they do not. As in, a solar installer that is qualified to install a battery system will only install the inverter he has used and has a dealer relationship with. Same with batteries and chargers. They are not like a residential electrician using a Eaton, or Siemens or Sq D loadcenter. Solar devices need some amount of programing.

I think the audiophile world is missing out on it, not because it's not better. But because it has a level of complexity to it beyond spending tens of thousands and plugging it in. Any electrician can follow my spec and use my panel to power a system. Few installers are qualified to set a battery/inverter in a home.

And, a simple 10 awg wire to a Torus or other filter will go a long way. I don't know if Markus isn't correct in it being a parallel change. FWIW, isn't the TT7 about $14,000 now??? Isn't a Everest about $10,000. Filters are not inexpensive.

Crom, I know nothing about the products offered in Europe. I am very surprised to hear you are having trouble finding a solar installer to put a inverter and batteries in you home. Europe is way ahead of the US in that area. I have seen that Living Voice setup. It looks like Victron equipment. And it has the same issues I called out earlier. Exposed wire and a heavy inverter to hang on a wall. And, done as such, in the US, definitely requires a switch on the outside of the house for firemen to kill the system in an emergency. And placards identifying multiple power sources on the premise and where the shut off is. Not necessarily a big deal. But it takes routing a control wire outside the house to a switch that is readily accessible.

 

[Crom]

I have someone who wants me to design a battery system for them. I'm hesitant. I have not done it myself. I like to touch things to understand them.
I also have not figured out how to monetize my work. How long it will take me. What I need to compile to make the job perform at a consistent level. And I have enough experience with electricians to know they many times do what they know how to do, and avoid what they do not. As in, a solar installer that is qualified to install a battery system will only install the inverter he has used and has a dealer relationship with. Same with batteries and chargers. They are not like a residential electrician using a Eaton, or Siemens or Sq D loadcenter. Solar devices need some amount of programing.

I think the audiophile world is missing out on it, not because it's not better. But because it has a level of complexity to it beyond spending tens of thousands and plugging it in. Any electrician can follow my spec and use my panel to power a system. Few installers are qualified to set a battery/inverter in a home.

And, a simple 10 awg wire to a Torus or other filter will go a long way. I don't know if Markus isn't correct in it being a parallel change. FWIW, isn't the TT7 about $14,000 now??? Isn't a Everest about $10,000. Filters are not inexpensive.

Crom, I know nothing about the products offered in Europe. I am very surprised to hear you are having trouble finding a solar installer to put a inverter and batteries in you home. Europe is way ahead of the US in that area. I have seen that Living Voice setup. It looks like Victron equipment. And it has the same issues I called out earlier. Exposed wire and a heavy inverter to hang on a wall. And, done as such, in the US, definitely requires a switch on the outside of the house for firemen to kill the system in an emergency. And placards identifying multiple power sources on the premise and where the shut off is. Not necessarily a big deal. But it takes routing a control wire outside the house to a switch that is readily accessible.

Thanks for your comments. I completely agree with you that this is complex and it's not just a question of spending money and plugging in. This is one of the reasons my adventure has been long and winding and it's taking a while to decide how to proceed on this stage. My difficulty is not finding someone to install the equipment, the market is a big one over here (even with our weather ;-) ). It's finding someone, who, as you say is open to using/recommending kit that they may not use all the time and someone who has taken the time to consider and optimise the elements of the installation which are less "plug and play". When I say plug and play I appreciate that the charger and inverter require programming but what I mean is the variables: cables, isolations, panels, distribution boxes, busbars etc. The torque and single/multiple cells as Hificlips points out. There aren't many/any electricians that I've spoken to that would consider deoxit or polishing busbars but perhaps more importantly they wouldn't even consider it impactful not to do this. I'll work something up and post it for discussion.

 

[Kingrex]

The programming is the hard part. I'm sort of blown away, Victron has nothing published for an emergency disconnect. This is a basic NEC requirement that's been around for a while. I had to watch a bunch of videos last night and see where one person was connecting the on off switch to a thermostat sensor. I don't see any reason this couldn't be turned into a viable emergency disconnect wired to the outside of the house for firemen to use. But it's something I have to account for and have the inverter in my hands to pre program and test its functionality

My electrical panels are the perfect accompaniment to come off the load side of the inverter, protect the wiring and distribute throughout the space.

Another option would be taking the load side from the inverter and running them directly into a wall mount Torus isolation transformer. They have the input and output circuit protection built in.

An even more simple option is just put the equipment in the room. The problem with in the room is the loose wiring and the requirement of the homeowner to assemble it. I guess I could fly out and install it all. But it still has loose wire.

What would be cool with the in room is I could have the inverter, feed out and into a HiFi Supreme fuse block with a twenty amp protective fuse. Then I would attach a quality audio grade power strip. It could all be direct wired.

I still think that's the best setup for amplifiers that can handle a single three thousand watt power supply. Thats 25 Amps. It's absolutely enough for front end gear.

 

[Kingrex]

what I mean is the variables: cables, isolations, panels, distribution boxes, busbars etc. The torque and single/multiple cells as Hificlips points out. There aren't many/any electricians that I've spoken to that would consider deoxit or polishing busbars but perhaps more importantly they wouldn't even consider it impactful not to do this. I'll work something up and post it for discussion.

I don't know how much choice you have when it comes to battery cables. Something I have to look into further. From what I have seen, the battery manufacturers, as well as inverter manufacturers may require you to use very finely stranded, flexible cable. If they require it, to be code compliant you have to use it. That is how they Listed the equipment.

I have actually heard people say tinned wire may be better than copper, as tining helps reduce some of the capacitive coupling between the strands.

I like to polish my contacts. I don't know how much the impact of that is at this time. I also like Deoxit. I would think electricians are ok using a anti corrosion compound. You can buff it into the bus bars before they are installed. I usually use about 7 coats. Let it sit between coats to lift oxidation, then wipe off while adding more. End with 2 layers of the G100 series.

There is only 1 way to land battery cables. Its the right way. That is why Victron has deeply detailed instructions on how to do it. If I were to commoditize the product, I would be sending a image of the correct way to land all the wiring. Its amazing how sensitive batteries are to the cabling. Its nothing like 120 or 230 volt wiring.

 

[Kingrex]

I have been reading
NEC 705 Interconnected Electrical power production sources
NEC 706 Energy Storage Systems
NEC 710 Stand Alone Systems.

What a mess of code. No wonder they say regular electricians only mess with solar once, then run with their tail between their legs.

At this point, I don't even know if a stand alone unit like a EcoFlow is legal in your home. Still trying to sort it out.

 

[Kingrex]

I was getting close to launching a battery option. I did some research and asked industry professionals their thoughts. I had a distributorship in the works with Victron. In the end, I find batteries are dangerous. There are more fires than are reported. I was told the NFPA and NEC code members are under intense pressure to keep rules relaxed around energy storage systems to not discourage people from adopting it. The NFPA and NEC want to apply more stringent protections as fires are a real issue. Many structures are burned every year. My take is no battery storage system or car charging system should be inside a residence or other structure. When fires start, they burn at 6000 degree and there is no way to put them out. Fire department are being directed to let it burn. Keep the surrounding materials from burning. You can not keep a house or building from catching on fire if the battery is inside a structure.

In short, I am abandoning the idea of any battery/inverter system for audio. I won't take on the liability. I remain 100% behind all copper panels and Isolation transformers with 10 AWG solid core branch wire to the rack. That is the best foundation for electrical infrastructure to feed highly sensitive amplifying equipment.

 

[Rumpole]

In the end, I find batteries are dangerous. There are more fires than are reported. I was told the NFPA and NEC code members are under intense pressure to keep rules relaxed around energy storage systems to not discourage people from adopting it. The NFPA and NEC want to apply more stringent protections as fires are a real issue. Many structures are burned every year.

Did you see any statistics on fires by battery type? I'm guessing they are from lithium ion batteries. I've read that LiFePo4 batteries are much safer and very low fire risk.

 

[Kingrex]

Did you see any statistics on fires by battery type? I'm guessing they are from lithium ion batteries. I've read that LiFePo4 batteries are much safer and very low fire risk.

Perplexity says over 4000 a year in homes.

 

[adyc]

Tesla batteries should be very safe.

 

[Rumpole]

Perplexity says over 4000 a year in homes.

4000 fires from which type of batteries? Probably the more hazardous lithium ion batteries, not the LiFePO4 batteries that have very low fire risk and a much longer lifetime. DarTZeel uses LiFePO4 for their preamp.

 

[Bruno Rivademar]

Lithium batteries are indeed dangerous. Many EVs catching fire and burning everything around them (entire parking lots, cargo ships etc), also scooters and bikes. This is of course never reported in mainstream news because of the obvious agenda behind it. Looking forward to knowing more about lifepo4 and safety since i'd like a battery-inverter for my sysyem. My power grid quality is so bad I don't think it can be fixed with any other method lol