Battery Power

[Kingrex]

I'm taking continuing education for my licenses. I took a solar elective. While reading through Energy Storage, it says systems permanently installed. That means a stand alone inverter, battery would not fall under NEC. NFPA and UL listing are still real. But hey, there isn't a single power cable out there with a UL stamp on it. Not unless its a ching cheng.

 

[microstrip]

I'm taking continuing education for my licenses. I took a solar elective. While reading through Energy Storage, it says systems permanently installed. That means a stand alone inverter, battery would not fall under NEC. NFPA and UL listing are still real. But hey, there isn't a single power cable out there with a UL stamp on it. Not unless its a ching cheng.

My DDK sourced Ching Cheng PC's are UL listed. Otherwise they would not enter my system.

 

[Kingrex]

Victron inverters are UL. So are the battery. So are the cables, termination, boxes and duplex I would use to lash to an inverter.

Audiophile like a lot of Bling. Hence they spend $38,000 for a 750 watt inverter in a fancy box. If I put a kick butt 3000 watt inverter on a board with unlimited battery power for $8,000, people would scoff.

 

[Kingrex]

I spoke to Victron. They offered me a distribution license. I meet with a senior tech next week to discuss products.
My thought is for an in room option. I want to find a way to mount the unit on a stand and have the output wired and attached to it. Basically a Hifi Supreme fuse block and fuse to a quality duplex. Maybe Watergate or Furutech.

The batteries sit to either side.
1 x 100AH 48 volt battery would give about 6 hours run time to a system disipating 500 watts. You can land 2 batteries on the inverter for 10 hours play. Recharg is based on the branch circuit feeding the charger.

Charger is turned off with a phone.

This setup would be similar in power to 4x Stromtank S5000. Its well under $10k complete and delivered. If I get it together, I will do some shows to display it. Maybe power a room. We shall see.

 

[Holmz]

Lithium batteries are indeed dangerous. Many EVs catching fire and burning everything around them (entire parking lots, cargo ships etc), also scooters and bikes. This is of course never reported in mainstream news because of the obvious agenda behind it. Looking forward to knowing more about lifepo4 and safety since i'd like a battery-inverter for my sysyem. My power grid quality is so bad I don't think it can be fixed with any other method lol

Any more conspiracy theories today?

 

[Kingrex]

Any more conspiracy theories today?

25 catch fire per evry 100,000 each year. There are 3 3M on the road in the US. That equals 825 a year. Its not a conspiracy. Only a 3rd are during charging. So 275 possibly in your home. Small.

Over 5 years, 25,000 tool batteries caught fire. But tool batteries get abused.

I am trusting the Victron rep who says they have a robust BMS and have not had a fire. I would put one in my house. But I do believe the NEC is going to outlaw energy storage devices such as battery in a home in 1 or 2 code cycles. They will probably require it outside with a barrier and some amount of space between the battery and any habitable structure.

For the life of me, I don't know why the NEC still allows stab in wire connection on switches and plugs. I have seen so many instances of failure. They tried to fix it with $75 AFCI breakers. But a loose connection can Cherry and burn without putting out an Arc that would trip the AFCI.

 

[Bruno Rivademar]

Any more conspiracy theories today?

Conspiracy theories lol. Typical clown response

 

[wil]

“… will probably require it outside.”

Do the types of battery systems used for audio function properly in the temperature extremes outside?

 

[microstrip]

25 catch fire per evry 100,000 each year. There are 3 3M on the road in the US. That equals 825 a year. Its not a conspiracy. Only a 3rd are during charging. So 275 possibly in your home. Small.

Over 5 years, 25,000 tool batteries caught fire. But tool batteries get abused.

Unless we go on researching, this information is of little use. In order to to know our own risks we need a proper analysis of the 825 per year. Were they certified batteries or cheap unbranded or third-party replacements? Were they being used with proper charger? Were they used in improper conditions, such as extreme temperature? Did they show any evidence of physical damage?

I can see that there are reasons for concern - this is recent technology that needs time to be field tested for security - the first users should consider they will be beta-testers, something some audiophiles love and I hate!

 

[Kingrex]

Unless we go on researching, this information is of little use. In order to to know our own risks we need a proper analysis of the 825 per year. Were they certified batteries or cheap unbranded or third-party replacements? Were they being used with proper charger? Were they used in improper conditions, such as extreme temperature? Did they show any evidence of physical damage?

I can see that there are reasons for concern - this is recent technology that needs time to be field tested for security - the first users should consider they will be beta-testers, something some audiophiles love and I hate!

Absolutely true. Thats why I am ok with a Victron system. I would be ok with other known battery brands attaches to a charger made specifically for that battery. I would not use the built in Victron charger on another brand battery. Get a stand alone charger.

I would be hesitant to use the lowest cost battey from wherever.

 

[Holmz]

Conspiracy theories lol. Typical clown response

Well I guess that we have enough clowns and trapeze artists for a circus then.

I am not denying that the media doesn’t push agendas, but that whole section about not having info because the media suppresses it, makes it hard to know if there is a factual problem with Lithium batteries, and it sullies the public service announcement message.

However 15+ years ago I was using some lithium batteries to power portable electronics, and the instructions were clear that they should not be left unattended. Which was sort of a bunch of BS as if one is using them during the day, then how does one ride herd on them at night?
I would just put them into a frying pan on the stove and charge them so if they caught fire then they would be in something that we designed for fire.
Maybe there still would have been a problem, but at least the risks are lowered somewhat.

... But I do believe the NEC is going to outlaw energy storage devices such as battery in a home in 1 or 2 code cycles. They will probably require it outside with a barrier and some amount of space between the battery and any habitable structure.
...

That seems like it makes sense.

 

[Zuman]

Rex, I already own an EGO Power+ Nexus portable (battery) power station, which is spec'd to deliver 2000W continuous power with 3000W peak power. I've never tried plugging anything from my hifi system into it, but it might be fun to try it out. However, I'm nervous about your comment several pages back about some amplifiers being damaged by powering them from non-mains sources. Do you have any more information on this? Also, I have a PS Audio PowerPlant; If I try using the EGO battery system, would you advise running its output through the PS Audio regenerator?
Thanks!

 

[acg]

@acg if you don't mind, did you spec any particular type of circuit breakers or cabling, other than 6mm T&E?

Have been on holiday @Crom , sorry for the slow reply. No special requirements for cabling or breakers etc. (other than for the wiring to be routed a long way away from the regular house wiring so as to reduce inductance) and for the entire installation to meet all relevant safety regulations.

 

[Kingrex]

EGO is a high frequency inverter. They are not as good at holding a stable sine wave under a demanding load. Just use reasonable judgment. Stay below 50% peak power. A 300 watt amp should be just fine. A pair of 1000 watt mono-blocks might get you in trouble.

Try it please. I would like to hear what you think.
If you start kicking on the fan, your driving it pretty hard. One guy runs his Gryphon Diablo and all his front end off it. Preamps and digital gear. The fan will start to kick on intermittently.

 

[Hificlips]

Rex, I already own an EGO Power+ Nexus portable (battery) power station, which is spec'd to deliver 2000W continuous power with 3000W peak power. I've never tried plugging anything from my hifi system into it, but it might be fun to try it out. However, I'm nervous about your comment several pages back about some amplifiers being damaged by powering them from non-mains sources. Do you have any more information on this? Also, I have a PS Audio PowerPlant; If I try using the EGO battery system, would you advise running its output through the PS Audio regenerator?
Thanks!

Is it pure sine wave or modified sine wave? I assume the former but if it’s the latter, then it’s no go.

 

[Zuman]

Is it pure sine wave or modified sine wave? I assume the former but if it’s the latter, then it’s no go.

Quote:

Is the EGO Nexus Power Station Pure Sine Wave?​

Yes, the EGO Nexus power station is a pure sine wave source. You can safely use it with all your devices including sensitive electronics, medical equipment, AC motors, and compact fluorescent lights.

 

[Kingrex]

Lets back up and make sure people understand what were talking about.

For starters, nothing of any quality is other than pure sine wave. Modified sine wave inverters are crap low quality garbage. Square wave junk.

That leaves pure sine wave inverters that are high frequency, low frequency or hybrid.

In the most general sense, dealing with a quality inverter, pure sine wave from a brand such as Exeltech has the best sine wave with the lowest THD. About 1.8%. They handle low power stable loads excellent. If you want to power a server farm, use Exeltech.

Low frequency inverters from a good company have higher THD. Maybe 8% average. Think Sungold. They can keep that sine wave under a load such as a motor. Say a well pump or mini split. High frequency inverter may have a more pure wave, but it has lower tolerance for a demanding load and can collapse. That collapse will let the Genie out of your amp.

Then there is hybrid. Similar technology to a high frequency iverter to turn the DC to AC, but technology similar to low frequency to boost the voltage to 120/230 volts. A very pure sine wave with low THD. And the ability to handle motor loads.

GENERALLY.
High frequency inverter is
100,000 freq Fet dc to ac
20,000 freq Fet 24 volt to 120 volt

Low frequency inverter is
60 hert Fet dc to ac
Boost transformer 24 volt to 120 volt.

Hybrid
20,000 freq Fet dc to ac
Boost transformer 24 volt to 120 volt.

Low frequency is robust as the 60 hert switch frequency is robust. Does not have to work hard. And the transformer smooths and boosts the voltage. They work under demanding loads. But they have a chooped edge wave. High THD. But, under load, they can peak at 300% overload for maybe 5 seconds before the wave collapses and flat tops.

High frequency are the opposit. A Fet switching at 100,000 herts ac to dc and another Fet switching at 20,000 herts to boost the power. They are very clean but can heat easily. And those Fet when overloaded collapse. They have fractions of a second of peak power then a flat top.

Hybrid like Victon is a good middle road. A 20,000 switch fet to get dc to ac with a boost transformer smoothing the already good wave and boosting the voltage. They peak for maybe 3 seconds before flat top. Thats way longer than any audio transformer is asking.

Nosie is noise. Even with a Victon, you have Fet switching at 20,000 cycles per second. That is noise. And it surely has harmonics. Those could be a second at 40,000, third at 60,000 and so on. But hey. Every filter out there is starting its best filtering at 20,000 or so and up. You can follow any battery/Inverter high frequency or hybrid power supply with a filter and remove most any noise. I will of course test mine with my Torus RM20.

Low frequency not so sure. Your talking a 3rd at 180 hert and 5th at 300. Way lower than any filter I have seen. I'm no filter expert.
Maybe something would work to make a pure wave from a chopped square wave. I don't know what that is.

 

[Hificlips]

Quote:

Is the EGO Nexus Power Station Pure Sine Wave?​

Yes, the EGO Nexus power station is a pure sine wave source. You can safely use it with all your devices including sensitive electronics, medical equipment, AC motors, and compact fluorescent lights.

There’s nothing to be nervous about as long as you don’t exceed the maximum load which you should check but is highly unlikely. However I highly recommend you use a power conditioner since you still need to deal with the inverter noise. And the noise profile of an inverter is different than the typical noise profile of the grid. Another important nuance when it comes to power conditioning.

Keep in mind that each of those “all in one” power stations sound different. So what you conclude for this one might not be applicable for another brand / model or even the same brand / different model.

In the end, trust your ears…. If it sounds better, if you connect better emotionally, then it’s better… IMHO YMMV

 

[Kingrex]

Keep in mind that each of those “all in one” power stations sound different. So what you conclude for this one might not be applicable for another brand / model or even the same brand / different model.

I wonder where the sound gets its signature. The batteries are all lithium. They are all a inexpensive high frequency inverter with relatively the same THD. What filter is built in to smooth the wave? Is that where the sonic signature comes from?

And talking about filters. A couple people have walked away from a filter and go direct. You have to try all ways. Filters can narrow the sound and compress dynamics. If there is no RF or DC, what damage is the 20,000 switch Fet doing. Is it a noise? Not sure.

 

[Kingrex]

OMG Renogy Battery Technical Support. Renog6 are about the most lame manufacturer of solar connected equipment I have met. They have 0 technical papers on how to connect their equipment. They have 0 training for contractors on what they offer and how to select and assemble parts Tech support then tells me we are DIY. So now they are saying, we are handing someone a stored energy, potential fire bomb, and we have 0 published literature on how to use it. 0 classes on how to install it safely. And 0 customer support personnel.
I am very disappointed in what I have seen with Renogy Battery