Bayz Audio Counterpoint 2.0 >>>>Rhapsody.Audio
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Intuitively, omni speakers should seem to be more affected by differences in room treatment.
Eg, is perceived tonal balance in room affected by treatment? Same question with imaging, air etc.
I am wondering if owners of either Courante or Counterpoint could share their experiences.
Eg, is perceived tonal balance in room affected by treatment? Same question with imaging, air etc.
I am wondering if owners of either Courante or Counterpoint could share their experiences.
The C'point is more affected by room size than room treatment.
The objective is to reproduce a real event (i.e.: musical performance) whose polar pattern is also, more or less, omni. The omni pattern is affected in the same manner as a real person singing or an instrument playing in the same room.
The set up of omni's is different than monopoles and audiophiles almost never have their speakers set up correctly (neither do exhibitors at shows. Ugh!). To achieve acceptable direct-to-reflected sound (essentially similar to signal-to-noise ratio), the angle between receiver and omni speaker is 45 degrees which moves the receiver closer to the speakers. After that, the further away from any reflective surfaces, the better; but, that is same for monopoles. As a professional in the loudspeaker industry, I've traveled to shows in Munich, DC, Chicago, Denver, etc., etc. In each case, the omni's do not do well in small rooms but wins best-of-show accolades in larger exhibit rooms (i.e.: Munich in 2022 & 2024 but not 2023).
Last word: my experience (and opinion) is diffusion over absorption. The more diffusion the better to the point that absorption should be used only to treat specific room problems. Diffusion preserves the reflected signal (very important!) but essentially lowers its level to achieve a higher direct-to-reflected ratio.
The objective is to reproduce a real event (i.e.: musical performance) whose polar pattern is also, more or less, omni. The omni pattern is affected in the same manner as a real person singing or an instrument playing in the same room.
The set up of omni's is different than monopoles and audiophiles almost never have their speakers set up correctly (neither do exhibitors at shows. Ugh!). To achieve acceptable direct-to-reflected sound (essentially similar to signal-to-noise ratio), the angle between receiver and omni speaker is 45 degrees which moves the receiver closer to the speakers. After that, the further away from any reflective surfaces, the better; but, that is same for monopoles. As a professional in the loudspeaker industry, I've traveled to shows in Munich, DC, Chicago, Denver, etc., etc. In each case, the omni's do not do well in small rooms but wins best-of-show accolades in larger exhibit rooms (i.e.: Munich in 2022 & 2024 but not 2023).
Last word: my experience (and opinion) is diffusion over absorption. The more diffusion the better to the point that absorption should be used only to treat specific room problems. Diffusion preserves the reflected signal (very important!) but essentially lowers its level to achieve a higher direct-to-reflected ratio.
That has been my experience as well.
Too much early-onset reflection energy degrades clarity and image precision. But the SAME amount of reflection energy arriving after a sufficiently long time-delay does not have these drawbacks, but instead is interpreted as "spaciousness". Imo spectrally-correct, late-onset reflections can act as "carriers" for the reverberation tails on the recording, such that under favorable conditions the venue spatial information on the recording becomes perceptually dominant, resulting in a "you are there" presentation.
Agreed. Unless it is truly broadband, absorption alters the spectral balance of the reflections, removing more of the high frequency energy. Ime timbre is richer and more natural-sounding when the reflections have approximately the same spectral balance as the first-arrival sound (this being imo one of the reasons a good omni in a good room sounds so delicious). And ime listening fatigue can set in when the spectral discrepancy between the first-arrival sound and the reflections is too great, especially if those reflections arrive after only a short amount of time.
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I agree to both.
Early reflections need to be spectrally identical to the first arrival sould and omnis are ideal to achieve this. Though the material of the walls also plays a role in how the reflections are altered.
If the first reflection is delayed too long, it starts sounding somehow echoy. If the delay is too short, the brain tends to not recognize it as reverb but as part of the direct sound, resulting in a perception of smearing the overall image (and timbre, if that´s altered as well).
So the question for home use would be, how much time-delay is ideal. What´s the ideal range of distance an omni speaker should be placed from the back wall and from side walls? Would be awesome to hear from people who have experimented with different placements and distances. Unfortunately, I am not very flexible in this regard in my living room.
Emperyan: I have my C'points 1m from the side walls and 2.5m (unequal distances) from the rear wall but, my room is less than ideal. Because my room is too small, the listener position is closer to the speakers.
I cannot speak to proper time delay; however, the book Sound Reproduction (Floyd E. Toole) is the best reference and a wealth of information regarding room acoustic-loudspeaker interaction.
I cannot speak to proper time delay; however, the book Sound Reproduction (Floyd E. Toole) is the best reference and a wealth of information regarding room acoustic-loudspeaker interaction.
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Thanks for the book hint. Sounds interesting. But I doubt that it will cover the specific case of omnidirectional speakers.
How big/small is your room? And did you try a Courante before in the same room? Could you elaborate on the differences and possible benefits and issues of your Counterpoint vs. Courante in a small room?
Sound Reproduction is considered "the audio Bible" and is a valuable reference whether omni, monopole, small/large venue, subwoofer placement, etc.
4.3m x 15.2m
No, I did not try Courante before C'points.
The Courante and C'points would perform identically except the C'points might (or might not) excite a room mode that is lower in frequency. The C'point's lower frequency extension is so good, a sub is not required in my opinion unless the listener values subsonics. (Aside: I respectfully request readers not to digress into a discussion of subsonics and stay focused on omni-room interaction; thanks.)
4.3m x 15.2m
No, I did not try Courante before C'points.
The Courante and C'points would perform identically except the C'points might (or might not) excite a room mode that is lower in frequency. The C'point's lower frequency extension is so good, a sub is not required in my opinion unless the listener values subsonics. (Aside: I respectfully request readers not to digress into a discussion of subsonics and stay focused on omni-room interaction; thanks.)
Well, that´s about 65 square meters - I wouldn´t consider this a small room. But it´s a narrow room in relation.
So, except for the bass region, you would not state that a Counterpoint needs a larger room than a Courante? Speaker distance from walls and seating position (size of stereo triangle) could be the same for both?
Why would the Counterpoint excite a lower frequency room mode? The modal frequency depends on the room measurements and how they create a standing wave. If the speakers are placed in the same spot in the room, they should create the same frequency modes. Only if the Counterpoint plays lower than the Courante, it might create an additional room mode below.
So, except for the bass region, you would not state that a Counterpoint needs a larger room than a Courante? Speaker distance from walls and seating position (size of stereo triangle) could be the same for both?
Why would the Counterpoint excite a lower frequency room mode? The modal frequency depends on the room measurements and how they create a standing wave. If the speakers are placed in the same spot in the room, they should create the same frequency modes. Only if the Counterpoint plays lower than the Courante, it might create an additional room mode below.
The room area is very large but the width is too narrow.
Although room size slowly transitions from unacceptable to acceptable, I would guess a very good width is 6m; 5m is acceptable. Depth (and ceiling height) is the same as width: more depth (height) is better. 8m depth would be ideal; 6m would be acceptable.
Generally speaking, the Cpoint might need a larger room because the speaker assembly itself is so large and sitting so close is not comfortable. But, I have not experimented with both in the same room and cannot provide any experience-based data. More importantly, the Cpoints can effortlessly play very high SPL. Similar to a live performance, there is realism when a loudspeaker is able to energize a large room without strain or distortion.
You are correct: room modes are a function of the room. The Cpoints reach much deeper and louder which might excite a room mode that the Courante cannot.
Although room size slowly transitions from unacceptable to acceptable, I would guess a very good width is 6m; 5m is acceptable. Depth (and ceiling height) is the same as width: more depth (height) is better. 8m depth would be ideal; 6m would be acceptable.
Generally speaking, the Cpoint might need a larger room because the speaker assembly itself is so large and sitting so close is not comfortable. But, I have not experimented with both in the same room and cannot provide any experience-based data. More importantly, the Cpoints can effortlessly play very high SPL. Similar to a live performance, there is realism when a loudspeaker is able to energize a large room without strain or distortion.
You are correct: room modes are a function of the room. The Cpoints reach much deeper and louder which might excite a room mode that the Courante cannot.
Ideally, would want the first horizontal-plane reflections arriving 10 to perhaps as much as 20 milliseconds later than the first-arrival sound, if feasible. But I haven't lived with omnidirectional speakers in decades. This this is probably something where your dealer is going to be a much more reliable source of information because he will have juggled the tradeoffs first-hand.
That equates to 3.5m to a wall and another 3.5m from the wall to the listener (if first reflection and equidistant).
Forgive me if I digress; but, it does bring up another question: should the ceiling reflection be the same total distance as the first wall reflection (i.e.: arriving at the same time)?
Forgive me if I digress; but, it does bring up another question: should the ceiling reflection be the same total distance as the first wall reflection (i.e.: arriving at the same time)?
That's of course usually not possible, but vertical plane reflections are relatively benign. Because they arrive at both ears simultaneously, they usually have relatively little effect on image localization. If the ceiling is too low it can make the "small room spatial signature" of the playback room more dominant, so in general taller ceilings are better, but I don't think we need another 3.5 meters above the listener's ears.
The ear/brain system is also not particularly sensitive to the frequency response dip caused by the floor bounce, and the later-arriving in-room reflections (which do not have the floor bounce dip) help to fill it in perceptually, probably moreso with omnis than with other types. The ceiling bounce can also help fill in the floor bounce dip, and vice-versa, as they are usually dipping at different frequencies.
That being said, ime there is often room for perceptual improvement in the tonal balance by doing something to mitigate the floor-bounce dip.
Interesting discussion.
I use a carpet to absorb some floor bounce and I use basotect absorbers on the ceiling for ceiling reflections. Both help significantly with getting the room reverb down to acceptable levels and they improve imaging - both with my omni Courantes as with my previous regular front-firing speakers. Without the ceiling absorbers, voices and instruments tend to rise up on the stage and increase in size, which sounds rather unnatural.
On the horizontal plane, I have no absorption installed and this combination leaves me with a very accurate imaging of the Courantes. I did not try, but I would assume that absorption on the horizontal plane would not be a good idea with omnis as it would basically kill some of the benefits of omnis. No absorber absorbs uniformly across the spectrum and therefore alters the spectral plot of the reflections. And it´s one of the main benefit of omnis that the reflections are spectrally identical to the direct sound (in theory, as your walls will also never reflect uniformly).
I use a carpet to absorb some floor bounce and I use basotect absorbers on the ceiling for ceiling reflections. Both help significantly with getting the room reverb down to acceptable levels and they improve imaging - both with my omni Courantes as with my previous regular front-firing speakers. Without the ceiling absorbers, voices and instruments tend to rise up on the stage and increase in size, which sounds rather unnatural.
On the horizontal plane, I have no absorption installed and this combination leaves me with a very accurate imaging of the Courantes. I did not try, but I would assume that absorption on the horizontal plane would not be a good idea with omnis as it would basically kill some of the benefits of omnis. No absorber absorbs uniformly across the spectrum and therefore alters the spectral plot of the reflections. And it´s one of the main benefit of omnis that the reflections are spectrally identical to the direct sound (in theory, as your walls will also never reflect uniformly).
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In my room, the Counterpoints were setup about 66 inches from the front wall, and also about 66 inches from the sidewall. I have natural wool carpet with an acoustic fabric between the carpet and the pad, and I have a suspended ceiling cloud. Room height is 9’6”.
With the Bayz “tubes” being ported, finding the right orientation and position to achieve the best bass response was the prime factor in setup, I never found myself paying attention to the reflected energy. I’ve seen them setup pointed straight back to the front wall, angled like I ended up with (aimed into the corners) and even oriented so the ports aimed to the center of the front wall. In my case (similar for other rear ported speakers in my room) pulling the speaker further into the room reduced the perceived bass depth, pushing them back muddied the bass and produced some boom-y-ness.
The location of the Bayz radial membrane isn’t really a factor in setup, its all about getting the bass dialed in. Getting that settled takes a little bit of time and effort, but the speakers are easy enough to move about with some furniture slides under the footers.
I had Courantes in the room before the big Counterpoints, and the larger speaker filled the room with ease, the smaller Courante I think would have been better in a smaller room than mine (roughly 19’w, 29’L, 9.5’h).
With the Bayz “tubes” being ported, finding the right orientation and position to achieve the best bass response was the prime factor in setup, I never found myself paying attention to the reflected energy. I’ve seen them setup pointed straight back to the front wall, angled like I ended up with (aimed into the corners) and even oriented so the ports aimed to the center of the front wall. In my case (similar for other rear ported speakers in my room) pulling the speaker further into the room reduced the perceived bass depth, pushing them back muddied the bass and produced some boom-y-ness.
The location of the Bayz radial membrane isn’t really a factor in setup, its all about getting the bass dialed in. Getting that settled takes a little bit of time and effort, but the speakers are easy enough to move about with some furniture slides under the footers.
I had Courantes in the room before the big Counterpoints, and the larger speaker filled the room with ease, the smaller Courante I think would have been better in a smaller room than mine (roughly 19’w, 29’L, 9.5’h).
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Zoltan, I look forward to seeing you as always if you will be attending the show. I also look forward to experiencing speakers again. This is a must-see room at the show for those who have not heard them.
Unfortunately, we won't be going to CAF in Washington this year, but my speakers will be there with Thomas (AV Luxury Group) .
ROOM 803
Speakers: Bayz Audio Courante 2.0 $ 47,900 - $ 69,900 / pair
Amplification: Burmester 218 Reference Stereo Amplifier $ 50,000
Burmester 088 Pre-amplifier $ 33,000
Digital Source: 1. Aurender N20 Ultra High-Performance $ 12,500
Network Transport Music Server / Streamer
2. Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC $ 28,000
3. Berkeley Audio Design Alpha USB Re-clocker $ 2,495
Digital Cables: 1. Shunyata R. Omega 1.5 meter USB Cable $ 2,800
2. Shunyata R. Omega 1.25 meter AES Cable $ 3,800
Analog Cables: 1. Shunyata Sigma X 2.5 meter Speaker Cables $ 12,500
2. Shunyata R. Sigma X, 1.5 meter XLR Cables $ 5,180
Power Cables Shunyata R. Sigma X 1.7meter NR Power Cords $ 4,000
Power Distributor Shunyata R. Denali 6000T/v2 Limited Edition $ 7,000
AV Rack Solid Tech Hybrid Shelf $ 4,800
Zoltan
Can you change the height of Bayz speakers?
The two photos show different heights (looking at the base). How tall can they get or what is the maximum height of Bayz speakers?
Zoltan, don't worry. I will keep an eye on TK, as his room is right down the hall from ours
I will see you in Munich. Please give my best to your lovely wife and daughter. Best G.
Not really… the photos show two different models. The larger CounterPoints, and the smaller
Courante.
(I’m just a wee bit over 6’2” tall)
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