Believe High Fidelity brings 4 new Analog lines to the USA!

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Joshua, further to my comment on Ked's Zero Distortion thread, I believe you've ordered the Jarrett Koln concert 2LP
So, will you play it on the Torqueo?
Can you post further details on this tt, their website is frustratingly vague?

My old Yamaha GT-2000 played this record essentially perfectly with regard to piano pitch stability (David,aka "acousticsguru" claimed he had never heard it that stable from vinyl before). Decays are natural with no wavering on sustains whatsoever. It helps that my copy is centered of course...
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Joshua, a couple of things
I don't quite get the reasoning for DD w low torque in the Primary Control tt
Surely high torque is a pre requisite for ability to maintain speed stability thru groove/stylus resistance
Additionally, by definition any idler wheel introduces more rumble into a tt than belt, even a modern day design like the Torqueo
One cannot surmise just from listening whether rumble is present or not, measurements would be needed
But I take yr word that listening can be a good estimation for deleterious effects of rumble, just not a decisively accurate method

Interestingly, the Brinkmann DDs also use low torque with "just enough" to keep the TT at the right speed...of course this doesn't address how they handle things like needle drag during heavy groove modulation but I get that these designers view the high amount of regulation necessary to get a high torque design to be speed stable as bad for sound. What they maybe don't realize, once you really dive into how clever the systems got in the top Japanese DDs by the late 70s early 80s, was how sophisticated the regulation is and how it essentially eliminated hunting and speed fluctuation while keeping high torque.

I like the fact that Primary control is using a coreless motor. This reduces cogging and being brushless most likely means sinusoidal commutation, which means less torque ripple. What I wonder though is if they have a very loose regulation on the speed then how much is it varying over time? Perhaps it is not "nervous" but perhaps it is also not that stable.

JVC came up with a double Bi-directional servo system coupled to a coreless, 180 slot (it was brushed not brushless) DC motor. This kind of motor has no cogging and just about constant torque and the sophisticated control means it didn't hunt and was rock steady. My Yamaha uses a similar motor and the same control system and I have never seen (With Allnic speednic) or heard a more stable sounding TT.

Kenwood used some kind of encoder and had a double PLL loop, one tighter and one looser to achieve proper control. Also, Kenwood, Yamaha and Pioneer used relatively heavy platters (mine is 6Kg) to further stabilize the speed and minimize the need for correction. Of course all these motors were relatively high torque but not compared to some studio machines like EMT.

Modern DDs are usually using an optical encoder (in the past they used physical marks to bounce light off of or magnetic tape etc. for the Frequency generation) but without the sophisiticated servo to control the motor they are perhaps prone to what earlier DDs did. Sophisiticated servos of course exist today but one has to realize that the big Japanese players at that time were not using off-the-shelf controllers but were custom designing them to fit the needs of the motor/platter and I do not think the small boutique makers today have this kind of engineering prowess and so use off-the-shelf solutions from existing vendors that may or may not work as well.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Brad, do you have any thoughts on the new Technics SL-1200 GAE?
Apparently, it has much impvd isolation but esp impvd motor, speed stability and torque, prob less speed hunting jitter
Some who have heard it have compared it's sq more to the SP10 MK 3 than the old 1200 it ostensibly has replaced
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Brad, do you have any thoughts on the new Technics SL-1200 GAE?
Apparently, it has much impvd isolation but esp impvd motor, speed stability and torque, prob less speed hunting jitter
Some who have heard it have compared it's sq more to the SP10 MK 3 than the old 1200 it ostensibly has replaced

Haven't heard the new Technics but if it is more like hte SP10 Mk3 then that is a good thing.
 

spiritofmusic

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This is a tt, that built in limited number, sold out kinda on day one
It's had no real interest from the high end community
But customer feedback has been stellar
And <$5k
 

Believe High Fidelity

[Industry Expert]
Nov 19, 2015
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Interestingly, the Brinkmann DDs also use low torque with "just enough" to keep the TT at the right speed...of course this doesn't address how they handle things like needle drag during heavy groove modulation but I get that these designers view the high amount of regulation necessary to get a high torque design to be speed stable as bad for sound. What they maybe don't realize, once you really dive into how clever the systems got in the top Japanese DDs by the late 70s early 80s, was how sophisticated the regulation is and how it essentially eliminated hunting and speed fluctuation while keeping high torque.

I like the fact that Primary control is using a coreless motor. This reduces cogging and being brushless most likely means sinusoidal commutation, which means less torque ripple. What I wonder though is if they have a very loose regulation on the speed then how much is it varying over time? Perhaps it is not "nervous" but perhaps it is also not that stable.

JVC came up with a double Bi-directional servo system coupled to a coreless, 180 slot (it was brushed not brushless) DC motor. This kind of motor has no cogging and just about constant torque and the sophisticated control means it didn't hunt and was rock steady. My Yamaha uses a similar motor and the same control system and I have never seen (With Allnic speednic) or heard a more stable sounding TT.

Kenwood used some kind of encoder and had a double PLL loop, one tighter and one looser to achieve proper control. Also, Kenwood, Yamaha and Pioneer used relatively heavy platters (mine is 6Kg) to further stabilize the speed and minimize the need for correction. Of course all these motors were relatively high torque but not compared to some studio machines like EMT.

Modern DDs are usually using an optical encoder (in the past they used physical marks to bounce light off of or magnetic tape etc. for the Frequency generation) but without the sophisiticated servo to control the motor they are perhaps prone to what earlier DDs did. Sophisiticated servos of course exist today but one has to realize that the big Japanese players at that time were not using off-the-shelf controllers but were custom designing them to fit the needs of the motor/platter and I do not think the small boutique makers today have this kind of engineering prowess and so use off-the-shelf solutions from existing vendors that may or may not work as well.

You hit the nail right on the head. Every topology introduces its own set of unique challenges. By making the table coreless this is their answer to what many have always objected to using a DD table. Just having torque for torque's sake is not necessarily the only benefit to moving to the DD platform. I personally found that a well implemented DD has always sounded superior to any belt drive up to a certain point. Mass for Mass sake in most platters and plinths without correcting these drawbacks seem to make up the majority of what manufacturers use to distinguish the product.

The DD Kinea is very plain compared to say a Torqueo aesthetically and the mass of the table is much less than a lot of belt drives. Not every solution is approached in the same way and this is why I have chosen them. Their distinct improvement and innovation to what is come to be common place reference designs has made its mark on me.

Their newest tonearm has a similar philosophy in a unipivot and for 30K I am hoping this will be the new king of the hill. Time will tell, but I am eager to hear back from the Munich show.

Field_Coil_Loaded_Unipivot_Tonearm.html
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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A $30k arm? Really?
 

Believe High Fidelity

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ddk

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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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That price does seem a little crazy
Is it at all feasible that a tonearm can be priced seriously north of many tts?
And this pricing does take them into Durand Telos, SAT, Vertere Ref territory
Good luck to Primary Control, and kudos to them if they pull it off
Core less low torque DD tt w field coil tonearm sure is a unique combination
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Dave, can you comment on what you think they might be trying to achieve going field coil driven on the tonearm?
Can you post a link to the companies website, I can't seem to
Or set up a new thread
I think it's worth discussing this company
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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Dave, can you comment on what you think they might be trying to achieve going field coil driven on the tonearm?
Can you post a link to the companies website, I can't seem to
Or set up a new thread
I think it's worth discussing this company

The link is the same as the one above and there's not much there besides this;

"PrimaryControl is presenting a new bearing technology, the world’s first field coil loaded unipivot tonearm. This technique provides high torsional stability and a low moment of inertia for the tonearm. Bearing chatter, caused by energy transfer in the unipivot bearing, is eliminated." Not a new argument many claim the same things for their designs. Perhaps Josh can shed some light for the reasoning behind FC in a tonearm and it's function.

david
 
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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Dave, I'm wary of a tech being promoted as world's first leading to impvts that in effect are achieved by more traditional means, as maybe a passport to a sky high price tag
My air bearing linear tracking Terminator T3Pro tonearm has an amazing number of advantages too, but only costs £800/$1200-1500, and I'd be surprised if it's shamed by this field coil arm
 

beaur

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Oct 12, 2011
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David,

I will see if they have it available in Munich. Will at least ask about it if they do not.

Beau

The link is the same as the one above and there's not much there besides this;

"PrimaryControl is presenting a new bearing technology, the world’s first field coil loaded unipivot tonearm. This technique provides high torsional stability and a low moment of inertia for the tonearm. Bearing chatter, caused by energy transfer in the unipivot bearing, is eliminated." Not a new argument many claim the same for their deigns, Perhaps Josh can shed some light for the reasoning behind FC in a tonearm and it's function.

david
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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Dave, I'm wary of a tech being promoted as world's first leading to impvts that in effect are achieved by more traditional means, as maybe a passport to a sky high price tag
My air bearing linear tracking Terminator T3Pro tonearm has an amazing number of advantages too, but only costs £800/$1200-1500, and I'd be surprised if it's shamed by this field coil arm

The tech isn't new electric magnet's been around in audio for many decades but is brought back and marketed as something exotic in the recent years. It's a very crowded field and if it gets you noticed, hey why not:)?

As far as pricing goes get used to it. We're in a hobby that people accept $20k power cords, $15k+ cartridges are commonplace, tt's compete in price with the most exotic cars and speakers are less affordable than some mansions so $30k tonearms aren't that crazy in this lunatic world. It could also be that after years of our governments printing money to cover up their F'ups our currencies are really little more than two-ply and the market is adjusting itself :(.

David,

I will see if they have it available in Munich. Will at least ask about it if they do not.

Beau

So you're making it this year Beau, good for you!

david
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Well, if SAT can do it as a fledgling product, and ex-Roksan's Touraj can do it three decades into his career, why not a new Dutch company?
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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Well, if SAT can do it as a fledgling product, and ex-Roksan's Touraj can do it three decades into his career, why not a new Dutch company?

How many people do you think would have noticed these arms even existed without the $30k price tag, same with this one!

david
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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Actually Dave, I didn't know the price tag when I highlighted it
Can't say I approve of the policy, to get attention shouting how pricey it is
Kind of like a noisy, demanding "me me me" toddler LOL
 

Believe High Fidelity

[Industry Expert]
Nov 19, 2015
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So they've taken a basic magnetic bearing design and replaced the permanent magnet with an electric one or is there more to it?
david

Suffice to say at 30k for the arm there is definitely more to it than that. As far as details go I am under an NDA until Munich or such a time as I can tell more about it.

Stay tuned...
 

Believe High Fidelity

[Industry Expert]
Nov 19, 2015
1,590
182
310
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ibelieveinhifi.com
Actually Dave, I didn't know the price tag when I highlighted it
Can't say I approve of the policy, to get attention shouting how pricey it is
Kind of like a noisy, demanding "me me me" toddler LOL

Apparently you have never seen a cable discussion. :)

Nothing more immature than the bickering in our hobby. What should be a shared joy of music is more about who's got the biggest dick
 

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