Believe High Fidelity Munich High End Show Coverage

[marty]

Kharma Room

Nothing could be a clearer example of the worthlessness of videos than this post. I was able to hear this room by myself for 20 minutes before the show opened on Friday as I had a trade pass. Moreover, I know this Andy Narell song like the back of my hand as it has been a demo tune of mine for decades. It is rare I get to hear a video that supposedly represents the real thing of something I have heard myself. What I'm saying is that the video you are hearing is, in no uncertain terms, not even remotely close to the sound one hears when listening to this fine system in the real world. In fact, it makes hearing it over an AM radio from 1970 sound like high fidelity. This is game, set and match. I also want to be clear- my thoughts on videos are a bit more nuanced than the simple condemnation I am making here.

see post #68

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/new-msb-cascade-dac.38721/page-4#post-966610

All I am suggesting is that this is the clearest example yet that confirms, for me, what I always thought, which is that videos like this bear little semblance to the real thing, no matter how you value their utility.

 

[Carlos269]

Nothing could be a clear example of the worthlessness of videos than this post. I was able to hear this room by myself 30 minutes before the show opened on Friday as I had a trade pass. Moreover, i know this Andy Narell song like the back of my hand as it has been a demo tune of mine for decades. It is rare I get to hear a video that supposedly represents the real thing of something I have heard myself. What I'm saying is that the video you are hearing is, in no uncertain terms, even remotely close to the sound one hears when listening to this fine system in the real world. In fact, it makes hearing it over an AM radio from 1960 sound like high fidelity. This is game, set and match. I also want to be clear- my thoughts on videos are a bit more nuanced than the simple condemnation I am suggesting here.
see post #68

Nothing could be a clear example of the worthlessness of videos than this post. I was able to hear this room by myself 30 minutes before the show opened on Friday as I had a trade pass. Moreover, i know this Andy Narell song like the back of my hand as it has been a demo tune of mine for decades. It is rare I get to hear a video that supposedly represents the real thing of something I have heard myself. What I'm saying is that the video you are hearing is, in no uncertain terms, even remotely close to the sound one hears when listening to this fine system in the real world. In fact, it makes hearing it over an AM radio from 1960 sound like high fidelity. This is game, set and match. I also want to be clear- my thoughts on videos are a bit more nuanced than the simple condemnation I am suggesting here.
see post #68

Nothing could be a clear example of the worthlessness of videos than this post. I was able to hear this room by myself 30 minutes before the show opened on Friday as I had a trade pass. Moreover, i know this Andy Narell song like the back of my hand as it has been a demo tune of mine for decades. It is rare I get to hear a video that supposedly represents the real thing of something I have heard myself. What I'm saying is that the video you are hearing is, in no uncertain terms, even remotely close to the sound one hears when listening to this fine system in the real world. In fact, it makes hearing it over an AM radio from 1960 sound like high fidelity. This is game, set and match. I also want to be clear- my thoughts on videos are a bit more nuanced than the simple condemnation I am suggesting here.
see post #68

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/new-msb-cascade-dac.38721/page-4#post-966610

All I am suggesting is that this is the clearest example yet that confirms what I always thought, which is that videos like this bear little semblance to the real thing, no matter how you value their utility.
.

I just don’t comprehend how two different videos recorded with studio quality microphones could possibly not capture the sound accurately and still convey the same sound:

Starts at 2hours and 58 minutes:

If sound recordings on the floor of the Munich show bear little to no resemblance to the actual sound, then why do studio recordings with lower quality microphones and additional post processing serve as the basis of this hobby? What are we doing here if simple “purist” recordings with studio quality microphones can’t be trusted? What are we doing here if the fundamental basis for this hobby is now in question? If recordings such as Vincent’s/TotalDac and Believe in High Fidelity are not representative than why do we put so much trust that those great Jazz recordings from the 50’s convey accurate sound? Is the great Miles Davis “Kind of Blue”, which has been dissected and restored countless times, an accurate portrayal recorded with primitive technology and equipment, but today we can’t manage to capture sound with studio quality microphones to a degree of accuracy we can call representative? You underestimate just how accurate the sound on these videos are.

Ironically, on the video side the understanding is that the pixel resolution of digital cameras is now greater than that of human eyes, but we are still under the impression that today’s studio quality microphones cannot capture sound with great accuracy.

 

[Rexp]

Nothing could be a clearer example of the worthlessness of videos than this post. I was able to hear this room by myself for 20 minutes before the show opened on Friday as I had a trade pass. Moreover, I know this Andy Narell song like the back of my hand as it has been a demo tune of mine for decades. It is rare I get to hear a video that supposedly represents the real thing of something I have heard myself. What I'm saying is that the video you are hearing is, in no uncertain terms, even remotely close to the sound one hears when listening to this fine system in the real world. In fact, it makes hearing it over an AM radio from 1970 sound like high fidelity. This is game, set and match. I also want to be clear- my thoughts on videos are a bit more nuanced than the simple condemnation I am making here.

see post #68

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/new-msb-cascade-dac.38721/page-4#post-966610

All I am suggesting is that this is the clearest example yet that confirms, for me, what I always thought, which is that videos like this bear little semblance to the real thing, no matter how you value their utility.

Best you listen to the TotalDAC recordings before you condemn all YouTube videos...

 

[bonzo75]

The sound signature from Tdac videos and BHF’s on the Kharma both confirm the foo fi sound heard in person at Munich 2019 and other times.

The best sound in the total Dac videos is the ESD acoustics. Richard Mak posted that 13 people confirmed to him that was the best sound at the show. Others have confirmed similar.

 

[Alrainbow]

I’ve been taking videos for years
I’ve shared and received videos for years
a better Mic and app for audio can improve things
now having said this a video cannot be considered what is heard by us in any room.
Marty is 100 % correct in what he says they are and can be very misleading most all times
now where I digress a bit is what can be done with them
I’ve done videos 100 .s of them of my own place for others to help me. They can be helpful , but also misleading
An example I’m there and recorded it many ways
And I’m not sure it’s my place period
there are many variables when you make the recording. how close or far , height
Loudness all make for a complex sound that varies soo much it becomes harmful as a tool.
so first in the true sense Marty is very smart and correct
now what’s left is my own personal opinion
I like seeing and hearing them this is a personal thing
example the Msb video does show audio attributes I can use and do understand
the grandinote room I just heard and video at axpona
it has a spot on of what I heard there.
it’s very fast has Amazing presence
was to me a bit tipped up on upper frequency’s
but this is not to be used to make an impression of over all sound
it can’t be applied to almost anything audio related
but for a few simple facets
one thing I’ve learned is small systems can be video
Better then large scale perhaps it’s why I never liked any of my own
but even done on my own timbre and tone can be heard
to go back to Marty’s system of the many rooms or homes I’ve been lucky to attend
his room is just perfect.
No matter what he played how loud he played it or
How soft it played
Never a hint of anything being out of balance to me.
why cause Marty took the time into perfecting his place
he uses many different methods to get where he is
ocd is no doubt one lol.
now is to me Marty’s place perfect for me
well yes and no
I like a bit more presence but in conversations with him and others I’ve learned what I like is not really correct
so now we argue over the matter of others videos
it’s ok but I know if I were selling stuff I’m not so sure I’d want them
Lastly I like them it’s the judgment that follows that is the reason why we argue
and we people think we each know it all while we each have the entitlement we don’t have the right to insult others views

 

[marty]

I just don’t comprehend how two different videos recorded with studio quality microphones could possibly not capture the sound accurately and still convey the same sound:

Starts at 2hours and 58 minutes:

If sound recordings on the floor of the Munich show bear little to no resemblance to the actual sound, then why do studio recordings with lower quality microphones and additional post processing serve as the basis of this hobby? What are we doing here if simple “purist” recordings with studio quality microphones can’t be trusted? What are we doing here if the fundamental basis for this hobby is now in question? If recordings such as Vincent’s/TotalDac and Believe in High Fidelity are not representative than why do we put so much trust that those great Jazz recordings from the 50’s convey accurate sound? Is the great Miles Davis “Kind of Blue”, which has been dissected and restored countless times, an accurate portrayal recorded with primitive technology and equipment, but today we can’t manage to capture sound with studio quality microphones to a degree of accuracy we can call representative? You underestimate just how accurate the sound on these videos are.

Ironically, on the video side the understanding is that the pixel resolution of digital cameras is now greater than that of human eyes, but we are still under the impression that today’s studio quality microphones cannot capture sound with great accuracy.

Carlos, We'll just have to agree to disagree. On the second video, at ~1:32, the sound captured bore zero resemblance to what I heard at the Alsyvox/Taiko room. It was just a horrible representation, period. You can wax enthusiastically about the great gear used to capture that sound, but it would not have been any more authentic or impressive than if you hooked up a recording device to the end of 2 Dixie cups and a string, with one Dixie cup fixed firmly to the speaker diaphram. Your argument about the gear used to record in studios just seems hollow to me as these show recording do not represent the reality of the full chain, from recording to playback, of the gear used in good studios or in many homes.

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, We'll just have to agree to disagree. On the second video, at ~1:32, the sound captured bore zero resemblance to what I heard at the Alsyvox/Taiko room. It was just a horrible representation, period. You can wax enthusiastically about the great gear used to capture that sound, but it would not have been any more authentic or impressive than if you hooked up a recording device to the end of 2 Dixie cups and a string, with one Dixie cup fixed firmly to the speaker diaphram. Your argument about the gear used to record in studios just seems hollow to me as these show recording do not represent the reality of the full chain, from recording to playback, of the gear used in good studios or in many homes.

You seem to lose sight of the fact that these recordings are no different than recordings in the studio but these just happen to be embedded in videos. If the simple recording process, as used by Vincent/TotalDac and Believe High Fidelity, is a fail and not a resemblance of actual sound then this hobby falls apart.

Let me turn the question around on you, what makes studio or live event recordings more accurate than these high quality Munich show recordings?

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, We'll just have to agree to disagree. On the second video, at ~1:32, the sound captured bore zero resemblance to what I heard at the Alsyvox/Taiko room. It was just a horrible representation, period. You can wax enthusiastically about the great gear used to capture that sound, but it would not have been any more authentic or impressive than if you hooked up a recording device to the end of 2 Dixie cups and a string, with one Dixie cup fixed firmly to the speaker diaphram. Your argument about the gear used to record in studios just seems hollow to me as these show recording do not represent the reality of the full chain, from recording to playback, of the gear used in good studios or in many homes.

You seem to lose sight of the fact that these recordings are no different than recordings in the studio but these just happen to be embedded in videos. If the simple recording process, as used by Vincent/TotalDac and Believe High Fidelity, is a fail and not a resemblance of actual sound then this hobby falls apart.

Let me turn the question around on you, what makes studio or live event recordings more accurate than these high quality Munich show recordings?

To triangulate the sound of the Kharma system in the room at the Munich show, a third video with 32bit recording using high-end studio microphones:

Starts at 54:30:

Starts at 2hours and 58 minutes:

Triangulation refers to the use of multiple methods or data sources in qualitative research to develop a comprehensive understanding of phenomena (Patton, 1999). Triangulation also has been viewed as a qualitative research strategy to test validity through the convergence of information from different sources.

 

[audio.bill]

Awesome, anyone know what digital source is playing?

Confirmed, it is indeed from APL. https://www.aplhifi.com/

 

[marty]

You seem to lose sight of the fact that these recordings are no different than recordings in the studio but these just happen to be embedded in videos. If the simple recording process, as used by Vincent/TotalDac and Believe High Fidelity, is a fail and not a resemblance of actual sound then this hobby falls apart.

Let me turn the question around on you, what makes studio or live event recordings more accurate than these high quality Munich show recordings?

I understand your perspective. And you have a point. A video recording made with a pair of Schoeps and played back on a high quality monitoring system or speakers with good electronics may be of good quality and have genuine utility. For goodness sake, Cantate Domino was recorded on tape with 2 microphones on a Revox in 1977 and is still a gold standard. But in general, what we are talking about for 99% of the videos we see on WBF for which we are told are meaningful that we should value sonically, were made with iPhones and played back on the same, or computer speakers. That's a totally different kettle of fish.

Conversely, as I have said for the Beethoven's 9th at Musikverein last week that was a live broadcast and which I attended, thinking that what one heard at home through a fine professional audio system, is never going to come close to what the audience heard live. No video recording is ever going to accurately replicate what one hears at the real event, even if the sound making device is a loudspeaker and the recording gear is of good quality. But when things trickle down to an iPhone recording, the veracity of what is captured is all but meaningless IMHO.

 

[Carlos269]

I understand your perspective. And you have a point. A video recording made with a pair of Schoeps and played back on a high quality monitoring system or speakers with good electronics may be of good quality and have genuine utility. For goodness sake, Cantate Domino was recorded on tape with 2 microphones on a Revox in 1977 and is still a gold standard. But in general, what we are talking about for 99% of the videos we see on WBF for which we are told are meaningful that we should value sonically, were made with iPhones and played back on the same, or computer speakers. That's a totally different kettle of fish.

But conversely, as I have said for the Beethoven's 9th at Musikverein last week that was a live broadcast and which I attended, thinking that what one heard at home through a fine professional audio system, is never going to come close to what the audience heard live. No video recording is ever going to accurately replicate what one hears at the real event, even if the sound making device is a loudspeaker and the recording gear is of good quality. But when things trickle down to an iPhone recording, the veracity of what is captured is all but meaningless IMHO.

Glad that you are finally seeing my perspective. To make the correlation between the three high quality recordings of the Kharma room in Munich posted above, here are a few videos of the room taken with iPhones or Samsung phones or with lower quality microphones :

I think most greatly underestimate how good the recordings on iPhones, and the likes, actually are.

As I stated previously, consistent impressions can be drawn from these videos.

 

[Rexp]

Glad that you are finally seeing my perspective. To make the correlation between the three high quality recordings of the Kharma room in Munich posted above, here are a few videos of the room taken with iPhones or Samsung phones or with lower quality microphones :

I think most greatly underestimate how good the recordings on iPhones, and the likes, actually are.

As I stated previously, consistent impressions can be drawn from these videos.

Yes the Samsung S23ultra that OCD Mikey uses has a certain authenticity that these 24bit recorders don't have, maybe something to do with using a 1 bit ADC.

 

[hopkins]

Glad that you are finally seeing my perspective. To make the correlation between the three high quality recordings of the Kharma room in Munich posted above, here are a few videos of the room taken with iPhones or Samsung phones or with lower quality microphones :

I think most greatly underestimate how good the recordings on iPhones, and the likes, actually are.

As I stated previously, consistent impressions can be drawn from these videos.

The fact that it is consistent does not mean it sounds good!

This whole video debate is a question of expectations:

- some people just take them at face value and find that the sound "sucks" and is not representative of the in-room experience, full stop.

- others, probably more familiar with watching system videos, will read between the lines and identify what they feel are strengths or weaknesses of the system.

Vis à vis Schoeps microphones, however good they are, the recording may be limited by a number of factors: high background noise, poor microphone placement and room issues, being the most obvious. It does not make sense to compare a video taken in a demo room with a professional studio recording.

Regardless, I think everyone will agree that there are differences between a live event and a recording.

 

[Carlos269]

The fact that it is consistent does not mean it sounds good!

This whole video debate is a question of expectations:

- some people just take them at face value and find that the sound "sucks" and is not representative of the in-room experience, full stop.

- others, probably more familiar with watching system videos, will read between the lines and identify what they feel are strengths or weaknesses of the system.

Vis à vis Schoeps microphones, however good they are, the recording may be limited by a number of factors: high background noise, poor microphone placement and room issues, being the most obvious. It does not make sense to compare a video taken in a demo room with a professional studio recording.

Regardless, I think everyone will agree that there are differences between a live event and a recording.

I never said that all recordings sound good. I have addressed this previously, I think that the problem most members here have is that most videos don’t sound good. It is only a few videos that sound good. Most members here cannot conceive or fathom how these high dollar systems sound so poorly over video so they automatically default to it must be the video or YouTube or the $1 ADC IC chip, or something else but it “naturally” cannot be the poor sounding systems. It is always the room or the cheap microphones on cell phones. The curious thing is that there are some systems that sound great on video and you know what these systems also sound great in person. Some times when reality slaps you in the face the first instinct is to deny and point the finger to something else, but when various sources and methods all tell the same story then it becomes very difficult to argue against what becomes rather obvious.

 

[hopkins]

This pretty much sums up how I feel about the issue:

I err on the side of caution as a result.

 

[hopkins]

Knock yourself out with this video.

The timestamps for the different rooms are in one of the compents.They must have recorded over 40 rooms!

 

[hopkins]

I did not listen to everything. The Ear Yoshino room with the Quads was "cool".

 

[Alrainbow]

Knock yourself out with this video.

The timestamps for the different rooms are in one of the compents.They must have recorded over 40 rooms!

Let’s ask Carlos what’s correct lol. Also what recording uses the 1.00 $ chip lol. Just kidding Carlos
for the record last show I used a real ext mic dual Mono and all
Kinds of settings
Was it better yea was it like the room yea
Was it exactly like the room no way
now playback on ear buds or head phones greatly improved what can be heard
but none gets me to what I do hear there
worse is I’ve yet to record anything on my nyc that is correct but still very useful to buds on Guidelines to move too.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

Peak Consult

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

Rockport Absolare Room