Best phono stage?
- Thread starter awsmone
- Start date
Dear harleyguy,
I have taken it upon myself (rightly or wrongly) to encourage members to be circumspect about their pronouncements, and to be introspective about hyperbole.
Logically, the only intellectually valid basis for declaring your opinion that the Tenor Phono 1 is "the best phono stage on the market" is if you have compared the Tenor Phono 1 under controlled and validly comparable circumstances to each of the other top-of-the-line phono stages (or at least a supermajority of them) in the "market" today.
Have you compared the Tenor Phono 1 to the Aesthetix Io Eclipse, the Allnic H3000, the daRTzeel NHB-18NS, the Ypsilon vps-100, the top-of-the-line phono preamps from ARC, CJ and VTL and the phono preamps of the other companies with state-of-the-art phono preamps in the market? If you have, then I withdraw my comment and I apologize for my mistaken assumption.
But if you have not, then it would be much more accurate to say simply that the "the Tenor Phono 1 is the best phono preamp I have ever heard."
I assure you that my effort in this regard comes not from the point of view of censorship or thought police. Rather, it comes from a desire to promote and maintain the high standard of intellectual discourse which graces WBF.
I have taken it upon myself (rightly or wrongly) to encourage members to be circumspect about their pronouncements, and to be introspective about hyperbole.
Logically, the only intellectually valid basis for declaring your opinion that the Tenor Phono 1 is "the best phono stage on the market" is if you have compared the Tenor Phono 1 under controlled and validly comparable circumstances to each of the other top-of-the-line phono stages (or at least a supermajority of them) in the "market" today.
Have you compared the Tenor Phono 1 to the Aesthetix Io Eclipse, the Allnic H3000, the daRTzeel NHB-18NS, the Ypsilon vps-100, the top-of-the-line phono preamps from ARC, CJ and VTL and the phono preamps of the other companies with state-of-the-art phono preamps in the market? If you have, then I withdraw my comment and I apologize for my mistaken assumption.
But if you have not, then it would be much more accurate to say simply that the "the Tenor Phono 1 is the best phono preamp I have ever heard."
I assure you that my effort in this regard comes not from the point of view of censorship or thought police. Rather, it comes from a desire to promote and maintain the high standard of intellectual discourse which graces WBF.
Hi Ron
I have looked at the Dartzeel 458 the matching pre amp loved it I looked at the VAC system also look at pass but wasn't for me. I like separate phono stages Looked at Tenor and fell in love so I bought the whole Tenor system in black laquier thanks al
For Kondo, we have compared the phono inside M77, M1000 and M1000 MKII with dedicate M7 phono. Dedicate M7 phono has always been our choice for Analog reproduction.
Not at all. The Atma-Sphere MP-1 Mk3.3 phono section is clearly the best in the world.
Seriously, even though we have made tremendous strides in reducing noise and increasing gain in the latest iteration, in the world of hifi it does seem that there is no 'best'. Is the Tenor fully balanced and differential? If not its likely not the 'best'- how could it be? But then you will find those that state that unequivocally, single-ended circuits are inherently 'better'. The fact of the matter is that everything depends on execution.
If you really want to proclaim something as the 'best', the only truthful way to do that would be to have auditioned all the competition (in the English language, there can only be one 'best', unless you are using an alternate definition of which no-one was previously aware...) and its obvious that you have not done so.
So now you know what I have done I spent 2 years hearing all the top audio manufactures.It came down to DARTZEEL AND TENOR.A friend has atma-sphere from dundas and you have it more than he has it.Does that ring a bell for you.So stop with the which hunt.I can have any thing I want as money is no object.But before I buy any piece of equipment I go and listen al
I just abandoned a forum with posts like this to come to this one here. The great philosopher Platon's story of the prisoners in a cave comes to mind. Harleyguy do you know it? Makes for good reading and
"which hunt" are you talking about? I thought you were hunting preamps at all the manufacturers. How did you know they were "top"? Sterophile et al?
Two years seems like not enough time to hear all the top manufacturers. Nor is it enough time to sort out when an existing manufacturer has made a significant improvement (for example while you heard yours and my friend's preamp, it is in fact out of date being several years old and therefore not in the running for the best- our newer preamps, only seen for the first time this year at RMAF, are better; whether they really are the best is another matter, but I've found I don't like phono preamps with semiconductors in the signal path, but that's just me). There is no witch hunt here- its simply that is outright impossible to know what is the best in this field. That can be said of a lot of things, not just audio, as perfection does not exist in this world. Since we all fall short of perfection, everything we do is built out of compromise of some sort, whether we are blind to it or not.
with all due respect Harleyguy; you are picking on the wrong guy and brand. Atmasphere has a multi-decade well earned reputation for amazing customer support and follow-thru. and I've never owned any of his products. time and time again I've seen him assist and repair his products after the warranty period and always be willing to help even buyers of used Atmasphere gear.
OTOH in my 20 year very serious audiophile experience I've never seen a train wreck as bad as the early Tenor company. in 2001 I purchased Tenor OTL amplifiers and convinced many of my friends to purchase them. it turned out they mostly detonated and took out the drivers of my Kharma speakers. then Tenor built (or should I say 'tried to build') a 300 watt Hybrid monoblock amplifier which I owned the first set. they also exploded and did not work. myself and other friends lost thousands on that amplifier.
yes; I know that someone else purchased the assets of that company and re-engineered that product and then built more products. and that they now sound wonderful and I'm happy for them and for you.
but please respect Atma-sphere who has always taken care of customers; not to say that your friend might not have had issues; that is not the normal situation. and a Tenor owner throwing stones at any brand is quite ironic. Tenor was a joke for many years. I know because I lived it.
Harleyguy I want to apopgise for my somewhat heated response to your last post. i find Atmasperes very measured response makes excellent sense. Since I am a technical dumbo I cannot argue in technical terms, but as music lover I fail to understand how a piece of gear could ever be labelled as "best". I can think of a myriad of reasons to prove this point but I will come up with just one :
If we comclude that say a preamp is best, we need to ask in relation to what? If it is sound, then the entire rig comes into play.
I am also tempted to say my four chassis Lamm is the best. But that would simply hold good, if I would add "to my ears and only within my setup as well as to my by nature limited experience."
Happy listening
If we comclude that say a preamp is best, we need to ask in relation to what? If it is sound, then the entire rig comes into play.
I am also tempted to say my four chassis Lamm is the best. But that would simply hold good, if I would add "to my ears and only within my setup as well as to my by nature limited experience."
Happy listening
Mike Would it be okay to tell you that you did or didn't do this or that with out knowing.so its ok for them to say I didn't shop around I have been into high-end audio for 30 years.Mike Tenor audio is a totally new company than you had.New owners with a endless supply of cash flow.So you never had Tenor from the new tenor company.My choice was DARTZEEL OR TENOR.i listen and went back inforth for 2 years before I went with TENOR al
Why would anybody buy Tenor when you can buy David Berning
This is why this site has lost so many good people
Harley guy, just for the record, your comment about us having our customer's preamp more than he has is a complete fabrication on your part as you well know. I can ask him to comment on the matter if you like. So back off.
Al,
I'm not in any way questioning your choice of gear. I respect we all make our own decisions for our own reasons. and I'm acknowledging that the current Tenor company makes great sounding gear. I also wrote in my response to you that I know Tenor is a new company which purchased the assets of the old Tenor.
nothing I wrote even mentioned Tenor verses darTZeel. you are presuming I'm commenting on that when I said no such thing.
did you actually read my response to you?
my point is only that taking cheap shots at Atmasphere to justify your own decision is just wrong. it's just a stab without any substance. and considering the track record of the brand Tenor your comments are ironic. or at least based on my considerable ordeal it seemed that way to me.
enjoy your Tenor gear, it's very very good.
I am not bothered by someone stating something is the better in the world - we ALL know it is hyperbolic, as no one can have listened to everything in every existing system and no IMHO will help. Surely it can trigger philosophical debates...
However I am really bothered when the poster does not substantiate them. Do you remember the guidelines of the old rec.audio.high-end on posts substance?
4.1 - Posts Lacking in Substance
In submitting a new post or following up on a previous post,
attempt to provide as much concrete substance as possible, in
order to make your post most useful to the readers. This also
applies to requests for opinion and to technical questions;
queries that are vague or offer no content will not be accepted
for rec.audio.high-end.
Examples of complete posts not adhering to this guideline are:
- "Tube amps are best."
[ No basis given. Please state *why*. ]
- "I don't agree."
[ Why not? Offer alternative or complementary info. ]
- "What do you think of xyz?"
[ Please include the context of the rest of your system, your
taste in music, or aspects of reproduced sound that are
important to you. ]
Quoted from the Rec.Audio.High-End Newsgroup Guidelines
However I am really bothered when the poster does not substantiate them. Do you remember the guidelines of the old rec.audio.high-end on posts substance?
4.1 - Posts Lacking in Substance
In submitting a new post or following up on a previous post,
attempt to provide as much concrete substance as possible, in
order to make your post most useful to the readers. This also
applies to requests for opinion and to technical questions;
queries that are vague or offer no content will not be accepted
for rec.audio.high-end.
Examples of complete posts not adhering to this guideline are:
- "Tube amps are best."
[ No basis given. Please state *why*. ]
- "I don't agree."
[ Why not? Offer alternative or complementary info. ]
- "What do you think of xyz?"
[ Please include the context of the rest of your system, your
taste in music, or aspects of reproduced sound that are
important to you. ]
Quoted from the Rec.Audio.High-End Newsgroup Guidelines
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I am very sorry I didn't mean it the way I typed it.I know you make great pre amps and amps.My statement about you have it more than he does was not about your pre amp being faulty.,put it this way hes not the most gentle with his equipment, I know you really look after the customers.like I said I am very sorry al
I assume that was the prior version of the dart pre compared to the Solution.
you likely have heard the prototype at the Newport Show which was much better than the original old model, but you have not heard the full production new version. it's way better than the prototype.
I had the prototype in my room for a couple of months prior to the new one arriving.
since the new dart pre's are seriously back ordered it may take a while before he has one. feel free to come visit me for a listen.
Mike,
Yes, prior version. To be fair, Soulution also has upgraded their statement preamp+phono, but I also haven't heard that one. So it's old model x old model
Anyway, I was beside myself when Hervé told me the biggest improvement on the mk2 would be on the phono stage (and the new battery pack)! I couldn't really see how he could improve and still keep the unit at a reasonable cost, but from your experience, it seems like he did it again
I liked the way he implemented all the options with a simple UI.And Mike, even though the offer was Ian's, I might take up on that to listen to the darTZeel (and the 458, and the MM7, etc etc)!
Ian,
You might remember I thought the 18NS was the pre for you, when you mentioned you wanted to upgrade your phono
There's no better deal in high-end preamps than the new 18NS, and I guess that's why it's backordered to infinity...
