Best phono stage?
- Thread starter awsmone
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Dear friend: that gentleman way before: 2018, posted similar statements in Agon and certainly did not have any measurements or true facts that proved those statements.
This one of his statements in this page: " 2) the loading causes the cartridge cantilever to be harder to move (stiffer). This could affect high frequency performance . "
I questioned he to prove with facts about and in that Agon thread and other thread and never did it because he has no single fact about but even that he continue insiisting in the same issue with out facts and for me is a surprise that here 2020 even that a gentleamn proved that statement was and is false he like to goes a head. This is a free world.
Now this next thread is extremely critical an important for any analog MUSIC lover and for any audiophile. Please read all specially the Wyn posts ( but others too because participated gentlemans with high technical knowledge levels. No I'm not one of them, I'm just an audiophile and a MUSIC LOVER with a high ignorance level on deep technical issues but trying to improve a little about. ), he is not just an audiophile and in one of his post you will read whom in reality he is. This is the link:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/cartridge-loading-low-output-m-c?page=2
in that thread Wyn posted that that 2) statement was false and he proved. You will read that all what he posted was informatuion/measurements made it in real time when he was posting he was modeling real time all the info:
"" certainly not on tracking which is demonstrably false based on IM tests on tracking performance that I have incidentally performed as a function of load. While mechanical impact does occur as a result of electrical load- there is some back emf necessarily generated by the signal current that affects the mechanical motion, but a quick back of the envelope calculation using Lenz's law and the 10uH cartridge suggests a 2 orders of magnitude difference between the generated signal and the back EMF for a 100 ohm load at 20kHz- certainly not enough to cause tracking issues "
Other Wyn post explain in deep the current stages to handled LOMC cartridges and it's important especially to any CH phono stage owner or other current mode phono stages owners or audiophiles that are " imppresed " with the term " current mode ". Please do it a favor all of you and read it and you will know is nothing new as a fact my in Essential 3180 phonolinepreamp that comes from several years took in count that design issue.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS.
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Anyone versed in the laws of physics, in particular understands how motors and generators work, will understand two facts: Any motor relying on a magnet can be used as a generator and vice versa. 2nd: if you load the output of any generator it will be harder to turn- anyone who rides a bike and uses an alternator hub or the like knows what I'm talking about. This is so easy to demonstrate that I see no requirement to provide a proof as it is nearly (but apparently not actually, see the quote above
) common knowledge.Therefore: The industry standard for cartridge loading is 47,000 ohms. If you then load the cartridge with less than 2 orders of magnitude less resistance, there will be more work done in the load and this will in turn cause the cartridge cantilever to become stiffer as it is the thing that has to move in the cartridge generator in order to make voltage. Jonathan Carr of Lyra and I had a conversation about this fact at Munich a few years ago. I encouraged Raul to study how magnetic devices like motors, generators and of course cartridges work, but since I am reading this comment above I have to assume he did not take my advice.
Dear friend: the title of your thread is " vital " for the LPs lovers. I don't know what could be changed in the gentlemans opinions that posted by 2014 to today 2020. I tryed to read almost all posts and I can't find out any post that could answer the thread title. Almost all the posts do not explained why that gentleman thinks that the model he posted can be in the top list of " best phono ".
As almost always in audio each one of us have our preferences for different reasons and I would like to write first the " ideal " design characteristics for the title " best phono " out there. Btw, I don't think exist " the best " because that can't exist, no thing in audio is perfect always are some and different trade-offs. So maybe could be better to say contenders for that title but design ideal targets is critical to make any phono stage evaluation. Objective targets because when we go inside each one subjectivity nothing is valid but each one opinion.
For me the functions of a phonolinepreamp first than all are that can achieve an accurated inverse RIAA eq with zero frequency deviation at each phono stage channels ( both channels should have evenly frequency about. ) the other main target is to have active high gain to handle any output level cartridge. As a fact phono stages exist because these two main targets/functions.
We need high gain but we need it along very low noise. These 3 targets are the hart of any phonolinepreamp and the true challengs to any manufacturer because it's really a hard task to achieve all those targets.
I like many phonolinepreamp in the market some of them already mentioned here: FM Acoustics, Gryphon, Spectral, CH, D'angostino, etc, etc. Yes only SS because tubes in this specific function can't do it and I owmned from humble to top design tubes electronics by around 10 years so I'm not speaking of my preferences but audio devices that its technology can in true be nearest to those targets.. This is only an opinion and I think is valid as any of your opinions.
I don't like very much to talk about tubes in phono stages but I will put an example through Aesthetix IO ( I listened the first time at A.Porter house and latter on 3 more times in other systems. ) where they say the unit has active high gain with low noise and yes it has 80db of gain that's a tribute for an all tube design but unfortunatelly failed on noise level that was measured a poor A-weigthed 57db and where the RIAA eq. deviation has ( by manufacturer spec. ) a high 0.5db swing deviation. That frequency response goes even worst because it depends of the control volumen that at different volume position different frequency response.
RIAA eq. frequency deviation levels is critical because in theory must be to mimic in inverse way the recording RIAA eq. to we can have a flat frequency response.
Not an easy task even for SS designs because that eq. is not a " delicated " one but goes from around -20db to +20db, this is a huge equalization with several problems not only about frequency response but phase and other issues.
Here I give you measured SS inverse RIAA eq. deviation frequency charts on very well know top SS active high gain phono stages and then we can understand my words about:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/K...7w4Jt7YB76_gYRhrCrdGU=w819-h524-no?authuser=0
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9...5F42QP3t4NJz6y276pbmI=w819-h582-no?authuser=0
https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/910Vitfig1.jpg
this last one of the 3 links came from the Vitus top of the line ( 60K+ ). You can look that starting at 500hz and below it the Vitus has a really high 20hz RIAA deviaTION OF -1.5db !! Even that J.Atkinson posted there:
"" This massive, beautifully built, two-box phono preamplifier offers almost unrivaled versatility, excellent channel matching, and almost zero RIAA error, but is not as quiet as I would have wished so expensive a product to be. ""
and more critical than that is what MF reviewed with that unit:
"" Its bass extension, control, and weight were granitic. "" how is that when in the bass range the Vitus is really poor performer ! ? ? ? !
Even JA made a comment about on that review:
"" Unfortunately, while the Vitus MP-P201 Masterpiece is well engineered, there is nothing in its measured performance that would indicate why Michael Fremer was so taken by its sound quality. ""
This next one comes from my room/system active high gain low noise phonolinepreamp:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/g...Rcb8d3mjRmnhWYmR9zeio=w819-h557-no?authuser=0
This phonolinepreamp in my system measures a low RIAA eq. frequency deviation: 0.011db. I remember that one time we achieved 0.0097db but we could not sustained for more than 48 hours because unit inside developed temperature ( pure class A total dual mono with two independent phono stages one MC one MM and one line stage. Fully balanced/differential and fully discrete design with 4 layers boards and no inside wires/cables. Everything is connected directly to the input(outputs connectors. ), parasitic and some kind of " vibrations " that affected the passive parts as the Teflon Cu caps and the Visay naked Z foil resistors. ASnyway, the issue is that that inverse RIAA eq. is ahuge challenge.
Look, graphic equalizers in the audio market as Accuphase, Soundcraftsmen, Crown, Klark-Teknic, etc, etc. ( I owned all and other ones been parametrics. ) in the best case its control levels by octave or 1/3 octaves can give you a range between: -15db to +15db and the RIAA demands -,+ 20dbs ! !
I have no dog on this battle ( well I have and is SS technology. ) and only saying that does not exist that " best " but only contenders. Btw, what we like ( including me ) is not important if the phonolinepreamp can't achieve those 3 targets or at least stays really near it.
As nearer those main targets as higher each one of us enjoyment of MUSIC. There is no different road to fulfill cartridge signal needs, there is in this specific thread subject only one road to arrives Rome.
Through my first hand experiences in my room/system and several other room/systems is that even than money always helps the MUSIC/sound level quality reproduction depends mainly of our each one knowledge levels not money. Kowledge levels about MUSIC and about whole audio subjects.
One really important personal issue that helps a lot to achieve the highest quality levels is the how high demanding we are of that top quality levels. We have to be our each one challenge by our self targets and very good common sense levels.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS.
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One complaint I've seen the 'digital crowd' lay at the feet of analog is ticks and pops of the LP. This argument is the most common, moreso than distortion or even noise floor. But LPs are not inherently noisy!
As I pointed out earlier in this thread, not all phono sections are alike in this regard. A phono section, if poorly designed (and this has nothing whatsoever to do with cost) will generate ticks and pops, which sound for all the world as if they are on the surface of the LP.
This is caused by poor high frequency overload margin, and a lack of stability when confronted with RFI at the input of the phono preamp.
The RFI (or ultrasonic noise, if you have a high output MM cartridge) is generated by a resonant peak caused by the combination of the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance of the tonearm interconnect cable and includes the input capacitance of the phono section itself. If you have a low output moving coil (LOMC) cartridge, this peak can be as high as a couple of MHz and as much as 30dB! 30dB is 1000x higher than what is not the peak, IOW the audio signal. If the phono section has poor High Frequency overload margin, this peak, when set into excitation by the energy of the cartridge (a resonant peak can be set into excitation by energy of another frequency), can cause a tick or a pop as the phono section overloads. for more on this see
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html
In addition, many phono sections have stability problems, where they can oscillate briefly when confronted with RFI (or ultrasonic noise) this strong. This can cause tonality problems (usually brightness, brought on by distortion).
If the designer of the phono section is aware of this phenomena, its possible to design a phono section that does not react to the RFI and so ticks and pops are vastly reduced. A side benefit of this is that the phono section will appear to not need to be loaded to sound right when a LOMC cartridge is used. This in turn means that the cantilever of the cartridge will be more supple and more able to trace high frequencies, see my prior post as to why this is the case.
Most phono sections offered in budget amps and receivers made during the 1960s, 70s and 80s have this ticks and pops problem. And its also common in high end audio phono sections. If you see a phono section that has a switch on the front panel for loading a LOMC cartridge, then its a good bet the designer did not take these factors into account when designing their preamp. The act of bypassing the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance involved detunes the resonant peak, but at the price of a stiffer cantilever.
Its a simple fact that due to the nature of tubes (which operate at high voltages and have low input capacitance, often orders of magnitude lower than solid state), they are far easier to work with when designing a stable, RFI-immune preamp that produces less ticks and pops. Opamps in particular have poor HF overload margins as they tend to run lower operating voltages and require loop feedback for their operation. There is a thing called 'Gain Bandwidth Product' that plays directly into this- at audio frequencies, the feedback is sufficient for very low distortion, but at high frequencies (especially those that are out of the audio band) the gain bandwidth product is insufficient to prevent overload and distortion. So one has to be very careful in the design to make sure that such preamp designs never see these higher frequencies, otherwise they can be quite annoying with the resulting ticks and pops.
So in this regard its obvious there is an acute advantage with using tubes. But there are good solid state designers out there that know their stuff (actually have an engineering background...) and do take this issue into account. Nelson Pass is one... Generally speaking, when you listen to an LP the grooves should be silent. I am very used to playing entire album sides without hearing any surface noise at all unless there is an actual scratch on the LP. I treat my LPs with care so this is rare. Even LPs I've bought used that are decades old are nice and quiet, even without being cleaned by anything more than a simple dust brush.
So, my opinion of course, but as I pointed out earlier on this thread, the best phono sections will not generate ticks and pops. IME about 95% of all phono sections made have this problem; we have an entire generation of audiophiles that literally think LPs are all about ticks and pops, when this is not a fault of the media at all. I run an LP mastering operation; when you send a lacquer out for pressing, you get a test press back and a form you have to sign off on- and in that regard, and one thing you are signing off on is the fact that the pressing is silent (if not it will have to be remastered). All LPs go through this process- so where did all the ticks and pops come from? Well now we see that its not the LP that is at fault.
I like to play LPs at audio shows and people might ask if I'm playing digital, because the background is silent. I just point them at the turntable.
As I pointed out earlier in this thread, not all phono sections are alike in this regard. A phono section, if poorly designed (and this has nothing whatsoever to do with cost) will generate ticks and pops, which sound for all the world as if they are on the surface of the LP.
This is caused by poor high frequency overload margin, and a lack of stability when confronted with RFI at the input of the phono preamp.
The RFI (or ultrasonic noise, if you have a high output MM cartridge) is generated by a resonant peak caused by the combination of the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance of the tonearm interconnect cable and includes the input capacitance of the phono section itself. If you have a low output moving coil (LOMC) cartridge, this peak can be as high as a couple of MHz and as much as 30dB! 30dB is 1000x higher than what is not the peak, IOW the audio signal. If the phono section has poor High Frequency overload margin, this peak, when set into excitation by the energy of the cartridge (a resonant peak can be set into excitation by energy of another frequency), can cause a tick or a pop as the phono section overloads. for more on this see
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html
In addition, many phono sections have stability problems, where they can oscillate briefly when confronted with RFI (or ultrasonic noise) this strong. This can cause tonality problems (usually brightness, brought on by distortion).
If the designer of the phono section is aware of this phenomena, its possible to design a phono section that does not react to the RFI and so ticks and pops are vastly reduced. A side benefit of this is that the phono section will appear to not need to be loaded to sound right when a LOMC cartridge is used. This in turn means that the cantilever of the cartridge will be more supple and more able to trace high frequencies, see my prior post as to why this is the case.
Most phono sections offered in budget amps and receivers made during the 1960s, 70s and 80s have this ticks and pops problem. And its also common in high end audio phono sections. If you see a phono section that has a switch on the front panel for loading a LOMC cartridge, then its a good bet the designer did not take these factors into account when designing their preamp. The act of bypassing the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance involved detunes the resonant peak, but at the price of a stiffer cantilever.
Its a simple fact that due to the nature of tubes (which operate at high voltages and have low input capacitance, often orders of magnitude lower than solid state), they are far easier to work with when designing a stable, RFI-immune preamp that produces less ticks and pops. Opamps in particular have poor HF overload margins as they tend to run lower operating voltages and require loop feedback for their operation. There is a thing called 'Gain Bandwidth Product' that plays directly into this- at audio frequencies, the feedback is sufficient for very low distortion, but at high frequencies (especially those that are out of the audio band) the gain bandwidth product is insufficient to prevent overload and distortion. So one has to be very careful in the design to make sure that such preamp designs never see these higher frequencies, otherwise they can be quite annoying with the resulting ticks and pops.
So in this regard its obvious there is an acute advantage with using tubes. But there are good solid state designers out there that know their stuff (actually have an engineering background...) and do take this issue into account. Nelson Pass is one... Generally speaking, when you listen to an LP the grooves should be silent. I am very used to playing entire album sides without hearing any surface noise at all unless there is an actual scratch on the LP. I treat my LPs with care so this is rare. Even LPs I've bought used that are decades old are nice and quiet, even without being cleaned by anything more than a simple dust brush.
So, my opinion of course, but as I pointed out earlier on this thread, the best phono sections will not generate ticks and pops. IME about 95% of all phono sections made have this problem; we have an entire generation of audiophiles that literally think LPs are all about ticks and pops, when this is not a fault of the media at all. I run an LP mastering operation; when you send a lacquer out for pressing, you get a test press back and a form you have to sign off on- and in that regard, and one thing you are signing off on is the fact that the pressing is silent (if not it will have to be remastered). All LPs go through this process- so where did all the ticks and pops come from? Well now we see that its not the LP that is at fault.
I like to play LPs at audio shows and people might ask if I'm playing digital, because the background is silent. I just point them at the turntable.
Hi Mike, I have it.
It's a very great phono preamplifier.
I had before the Esoteric E-03.
Nothing to say...The C47 is better than the E-03 in every domain in my system.
Have you tried the new ZEN Phono from iFi? I've heard great things about them and sounds like it could be what you're looking for https://ifi-audio.com/products/zen-phono/
Yes i love the balanced circuit design without actually having balanced connections. And a sub rumble filter is a absolutely must on a high end product
Bravo, sir! What a huge amount of fascinating and excellent information, and I couldn’t agree more. When I listen to music, 99% of the time it’s vinyl, which does not have inherent pops n’ clicks. I believe you need a certain level of a phono section, but if ya do...it’s absolutely heavenly.
Another landmark post!
Regarding "A side benefit of this is that the phono section will appear to not need to be loaded to sound right when a LOMC cartridge is used" - indeed, and I have been able to reach that level with my modified XP-25 and also enjoy zero hiss at a very high gain of 76dB with my A90
I also use 47,000 ohms loading on my Pass Labs XP 27 and vdH cartridges. It’s the most resolving open and natural sound I hear from the various loading options. However I have my phonostage set to 53 dB gain.
My question regarding gain is why use a high gain setting if you just have to attenuate the signal later at the preamp? My cartridge output is 0.75 mV. What is the output of the Ortofon A90?
0.27mV. Max gain gives me max dynamic headroom out of the unit, bypassing the other voltage-dividing settings. That's the "native" gain of the unit; the others are like turning down the volume. None of this has anything to do with the preamp downstream.
Yes i love the balanced circuit design without actually having balanced connections. And a sub rumble filter is a absolutely must on a high end product
It is possible to have a balanced phono input with RCA's - but we have to check the tonearm cable wiring. Anyway the IFI Zen Phono is not targeted towards the high-end audiophiles - it is an interesting product for vinyl revivalists that want to have minimum quality phono preamplification at low cost. Many cheap (or vintage ...
) turntables will need a rumble filter. I loved the political correct way of avoiding insults to the prospective client turntable - calling the filter "sub-rumble"!Suggesting it in a “best phono stage “ thread is probably something of a stretchIt is possible to have a balanced phono input with RCA's - but we have to check the tonearm cable wiring. Anyway the IFI Zen Phono is not targeted towards the high-end audiophiles - it is an interesting product for vinyl revivalists that want to have minimum quality phono preamplification at low cost. Many cheap (or vintage ...
By a new member in his first post ! Hm
Well actually you don't need more than about 60dB to work with almost any low output cartridge. The issue is noise; if your noise floor is low enough you really don't need extra gain- and so the gain of the line stage actually becomes handy. I've always felt this is the best way to go because to get more gain often means you need more gain stages, and each gain stage contributes to distortion, loss of bandwidth and of course, noise. This is where differential circuitry is helpful, as it has theoretically 6dB less noise per gain stage as opposed to the same type of circuit that is single-ended.
Almost all tone arm wiring is balanced- cartridges are a naturally balanced source. That is why there is that weird ground wire that no other single ended source seems to need. The exception seems to be with some air bearing tangential tracking arms where the mass of the wiring is actually a factor and so the arm ground is combined with one of the minus outputs of the cartridge, usually the left channel. But any arm that has a DIN (5-pin) connection, or that employs RCA outputs and a separate ground connection, is a true balanced output, although the latter connection has to be treated with some care to take advantage of it (as we see below, it is a bit more susceptible to noise pickup). For this reason any vintage turntable can be set up as balanced with great ease, as all you really have to do is replace the interconnect cable between the tonearm and the preamp. We have an older Kenwood turntable in the shop right now which has gotten exactly this treatment. Older machines like this one often have a 5-position terminal strip inside to which the interconnect is attached, making this an easy upgrade.
If the IFI Zen Phono is really balanced using RCA inputs is a terrible way to do it. You might have a balanced connection, but the barrel connection of the RCA can't be at circuit ground and because of its larger size and geometric position with respect to the inner connection, is susceptible to buzz pickup, and you would need a custom cable to make it work- there are no off-the-shelf cables built in the required manner!
Unfortunately many excellent vintage turntables, such as Thorens, did not carry a separate ground wire - they used the left channel shield as a ground. In the 80's I helped many people disconnecting it and adding a proper ground wire - but we had to add the ground tag! We can clearly see the guilty wires in the picture.
Thank you Ralph. I always assumed that my Pass XP27 simply added gain stages after the lowest 53dB setting, so with the 0.75mV higher output of my Colibri, that was fine. However, Ack above states that the highest 76dB gain setting is "native" and the lower ones divide the voltage. I don't really understand that, but have an email into Pass Lab's Wayne Colburn who designed it. I will also do some listening comparisons in the next few days to see if I can hear a difference between the high gain/low volume versus the low gain/high volume settings.
I appreciate your comments.
Here's a longer explanation from the July/August 2020 TAS issue - hoping to see it online some day
Attachments
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IMG_4304.JPG
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