Best phono stage?

[G T Audio]

The phono cartridge is a balanced source.

So if you have a balanced input the cable can have less influence on the sound- perhaps none at all.

If the internal circuitry is fully differential and balanced, you have more immunity to the power supply. You also have in theory 6dB less noise per stage of gain.

The statement highlighted above is false and is a common myth about balanced operation. We have only two stages of gain in our fully differential balanced phono section, which is zero feedback with passive EQ (executed in the differential domain, so no issues with tube drift and the same number of parts as you see in a single-ended passive EQ circuit) and it works fine with LOMC cartridges straight in. There is not 'double the parts' nor 'double the number of active stages' because to execute a differential amplifier you do not need twice as many parts as the same gain stage executed single-ended.

What you get instead is a simpler signal path; most phono sections that can work with LOMC cartridges require three stages of gain or two stages with an SUT; either way more frequency poles (especially if an SUT is used) than in a fully differential circuit.

Indeed, but in the two balanced stages of gain there will be 4 active devices. A single ended 2 stage design will only have 2 active devices, so half the number of active devices of the balanced stage. Plus there will be the extra components required for the 4 active devices over the 2. Then you have to make sure the active devices in each stage are absolutely identical, which is not a requirement for the single-ended design. I still maintain that there will be more parts involved in a balanced design then in a single-ended design including the ones in the signal path.

 

[sbo6]

When you get to this level, the customer should have some understanding of the design/implementation to know what is good and what is bad, in order to make sure the system is coherent so that every piece of electronics complements each other. Its not uncommon these days for Audiophiles to buy blind based on a review that someone has written, especially due to the scarcity of HiFi dealers and the availability of equipment these days.

Sorry, wrong answer, the consumer PC industry figured this out many moons ago. Noone cares about the fastest, most memory, the processor frequency, SSD size and speed, cooling solution design / capability, material density and durability, and / or how it all works together - the vast majority simply want it to work flawlessly.

In audio, the vast majority of customers care about the looks and the sound (e.g.: WAF). Tech details are superfluous other than for the small minority of us on forums like this. Know your customer base.

 

[G T Audio]

Wrong answer, the consumer PC industry figured this out many moons ago. Noone cares about the fastest, most memory, the processor frequency, SSD size and speed, cooling solution design / capability, material density and durability, and / or how it all works together - the vast majority simply want it to work flawlessly.

In audio, the vast majority of customers care about the looks and the sound (e.g.: WAF). Tech details are superfluous other than for the small minority of us on forums like this. Know your customer base.

My answer is correct, as I am on this high end forum where I would have expected audiophiles to want to know about the tech and design and what they are buying with their hard earned money. Most of my customers take a great deal of interest in the design and the technology. The consumer PC Industry are selling digital products by the millions to all and sundry and it is all based on numbers and price. This is not the case in the High-end Audio industry. I note that a number of articles and interviews with industry experts and manufacturers on this forum delve quite deeply into the products and the tech. So being on here would indicate that I do know my customer base!

 

[sbo6]

My answer is correct, as I am on this high end forum where I would have expected audiophiles to want to know about the tech and design and what they are buying with their hard earned money. Most of my customers take a great deal of interest in the design and the technology. The consumer PC Industry are selling digital products by the millions to all and sundry and it is all based on numbers and price. This is not the case in the High-end Audio industry. I note that a number of articles and interviews with industry experts and manufacturers on this forum delve quite deeply into the products and the tech. So being on here would indicate that I do know my customer base!

Whatever you say, enjoy!

 

[dminches]

Sorry, wrong answer, the consumer PC industry figured this out many moons ago. Noone cares about the fastest, most memory, the processor frequency, SSD size and speed, cooling solution design / capability, material density and durability, and / or how it all works together - the vast majority simply want it to work flawlessly.

In audio, the vast majority of customers care about the looks and the sound (e.g.: WAF). Tech details are superfluous other than for the small minority of us on forums like this. Know your customer base.

No one cares about what’s inside the box? I do. Any gamer does. Many people build their own PCs. Those people actually define the specs.

 

[Mikeeo]

I don't know the price of the C47 in USA.
In Europe, it is around 10.000 euros and the Air Tight ATE 3011is around 30000 euros...

More money is not always the solution for success and a lot of other factors… we only have our own systems and ears...

 

[Atmasphere]

Indeed, but in the two balanced stages of gain there will be 4 active devices. A single ended 2 stage design will only have 2 active devices, so half the number of active devices of the balanced stage. Plus there will be the extra components required for the 4 active devices over the 2. Then you have to make sure the active devices in each stage are absolutely identical, which is not a requirement for the single-ended design. I still maintain that there will be more parts involved in a balanced design then in a single-ended design including the ones in the signal path.

In a differential amplifier, which is a single gain stage, there are two devices but not twice as many parts. Of course there are more parts than single-ended, but if you want the best its well worth it; another tube socket really isn't that expensive.

Since a differential amplifier is a single gain stage, if you only have to go through two of them, that's less stages of gain for LOMC then you have with a single-ended circuit. And the number of EQ components can be exactly the same.

That old saw about single-ended being simpler so its better isn't true. For starters, the signal path of a single-ended circuit often has more gain stages (whether phono section or power amp...) so its not really simpler as so often depicted. Plus you can get better performance if you amplify the balanced signal of the cartridge in the differential domain; less noise per gain stage (even if not perfectly balanced), less power supply susceptibility and lower distortion since distortion gets cancelled from stage to stage.

 

[sbo6]

No one cares about what’s inside the box? I do. Any gamer does. Many people build their own PCs. Those people actually define the specs.

And that % is minimal compared to those that don't. Also "many" is relative.

Define the specs? The industry defines the specs based on business cases and technological capabilities.

 

[dminches]

And that % is minimal compared to those that don't. Also "many" is relative.

Define the specs? The industry defines the specs based on business cases and technological capabilities.

By specs I mean what you mentioned (fastest, most memory, the processor frequency, SSD size and speed, cooling solution design / capability, material).

Yes, it is relative but if you go on PCpartpicker there is a huge community of people designing their own builds.

Many is relative. "No one" is not.

I agree most do not design their own computers but even the major computer sellers allow you do customize your build and choose different CPUs, memory amounts, video cards, hard drives sizes, etc.

 

[sbo6]

I agree most do not design their own computers but even the major computer sellers allow you do customize your build and choose different CPUs, memory amounts, video cards, hard drives sizes, etc.

Some customize their PC, most could care less. Trust me, I work for one of the major OEMs. ;-)

 

[airbearing]

thought Allnic DHT was your favourite?

Yes, DHT 5000 and EMT JPA 66. but the new Air Tight might be a good contender in this group.
best

www.audiocirc.com

 

[Salectric]

My feelings exactly. I don’t discuss my electronics very often in this forum since they are all DIY but you just described my phono stage—-two tube stages per channel (D3a and 5687) with nickel output transformer, no loop feedback, outboard power supply with tube rectifier, all parts selected for best sound quality including all BlackGate WKZ caps in the power supply. And no switches—just one set of inputs and one set of outputs—-and absolutely no screens, microprocessors or other nonsense.

Here are two other important design elements that are easy to spot from just a peek inside the chassis. First, no toroid transformers. Second, if the tube heater supply is DC, as most are, there should be a separate power transformer for the heater supply. Feeding the heater rectifiers from the same power transformer as the B+ plate voltage adversely affects the sound quality. Few companies use a separate transformer for the heaters but it is an easy and cheap way to improve the sound of any tube device whether phono stage, line stage, DAC or power amp.

 

[tima]

Noone cares about the fastest, most memory, the processor frequency, SSD size and speed, cooling solution design / capability, material density and durability, and / or how it all works together - the vast majority simply want it to work flawlessly.

Of course everyone wants their computer to work.

But there is a very active DIY segment of the market that builds their own and definitely cares about the individual components and their mutual compatibility. Effectively being forced off Windows 7, I just built a new PC and selected and put together each part: case, power supply, CPU, motherboard, SSD, disk drives, video card, fans, cpu cooler, etc. I am not a gamer, I built for speed and long term reliability. There are quite a few Web sites dedicated to DIY activity.

Phono stage? For me it's the Lamm LP1 Signature.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, DHT 5000 and EMT JPA 66. but the new Air Tight might be a good contender in this group.
best

www.audiocirc.com

tried the H8000 yet? Where does it fit

 

[DasguteOhr]

For me
Moon lp 810 the lowest noise phono(40db +sut) I know ,most digital playback has more noise.
Klyne audio px 7.3.5
the pure musicality, whenever I hear it I think that's how it should sound.

Tube
Manley steelhead rc
the most flexible thing on the planet,with line stage input a full pre.phantastic sound
Innovative audio ultrapath sym phono
More dynamic like this thing ..haha no way with silvercore sut

 

[Atmasphere]

Here are two other important design elements that are easy to spot from just a peek inside the chassis. First, no toroid transformers. Second, if the tube heater supply is DC, as most are, there should be a separate power transformer for the heater supply. Feeding the heater rectifiers from the same power transformer as the B+ plate voltage adversely affects the sound quality. Few companies use a separate transformer for the heaters but it is an easy and cheap way to improve the sound of any tube device whether phono stage, line stage, DAC or power amp.

None of this has any bearing on the sound of the preamp unless its power supplies are poorly regulated/poorly bypassed.

Toriods can work fine but they have issues to which you have to pay attention (engineering). For example make sure there's a DC blocker to prevent the core being saturated. If you understand the care and feeding of toriods they work very well. No good for output transformers, but that's a different topic.

 

[sbo6]

Of course everyone wants their computer to work.

But there is a very active DIY segment of the market that builds their own and definitely cares about the individual components and their mutual compatibility. Effectively being forced off Windows 7, I just built a new PC and selected and put together each part: case, power supply, CPU, motherboard, SSD, disk drives, video card, fans, cpu cooler, etc. I am not a gamer, I built for speed and long term reliability. There are quite a few Web sites dedicated to DIY activity.

Phono stage? For me it's the Lamm LP1 Signature.

And you are in a small minority. As you climb the $ ladder DIY becomes irrelevant especially in high - end audio.

 

[analogsa]

For example make sure there's a DC blocker to prevent the core being saturated. If you understand the care an

DC blockers are another can of worms, never liked what they do to the sound.

 

[Atmasphere]

DC blockers are another can of worms, never liked what they do to the sound.

If you have a toroid, the transformer becomes silent as there is no DC Offset of the AC waveform. As far as the transformer is concerned, harmony is restored. EI core transformers are more resistant to DC on the line but it does not hurt them at all to get rid of the offset. If you've found they mess up the sound for you, IMO/IME it points to a problem in your system that probably should get fixed.

 

[Birdwatcher]

We have the Jeff Rowland Phono stage, the CH Precision phono stages both the P1 and P10. At different pricepoints these are my favorites.

Which Jeff Rowland phono do you have? Cadence (with battery PS?) or Conductor (with PSU?)?

What do you and others here think about this quite modern, not discret, not pure analogue, and even in their dimension not very big phono stages. They use Lundahl SUT in in- and output.
There are some great reviews (yes I know….), and I personally had just the Cadence over some years with great success.