Best phono stage?
- Thread starter awsmone
- Start date
Any more comments on the Lamm LP 2.1 phono. It was recently reviewed by Michael Fremer and he compared it to his Ypsilon phono. While using the MM side of the Lamm with the Ypsilon 10:1 SUT it compared very favorably to the Ypsilon unit with the same SUT.
It's starting to stretch out more. It's not a "Wow" kind of sound. Currently the main rig is all Lamm (L2 Ref, LP2.1, M2.2s ). We rotate between brands and for the last few months I've been enjoying it very much. The Gold Finger S while much warmer than the CA V1s can still be a tad too intense for many. This is not the case here. The 1:9 step up ratio seems perfect with the relatively high output of the GFS. I think the optional (upon order, no extra costs) 1:30 would be best for anything in the .4 range and below because of the gain of the MM circuits. It's hard to describe. It just sounds natural and has this nice "pop" on transients. That "pop" gives vividness in color and energy as well as a better feel for the action and movement of sound events. In other words it is classic Vladimir Lamm. His music selection in shows is chosen to best show this subtle play on space off. It's not that different in tone to its predecessor. You'll know the same company made it. Rather it's like the LP2 shaved, had it's hair cut, showered and put on a bespoke suit. The LP2 by comparison was a guy duded up but duded up casually.
One thing I noticed immediately is that it is much quieter than the LP2. I suspect this is due to the change in tube type. The 427A family, while being very musical, isn't known for low microphonics. I think the .1 designation is apt. It is a refinement of an already good, multi-awarded design not a whole new product.
I can't think of anything else right now I would take for the same money. Fits my taste to a T at least with the higher output carts I have on hand.
One thing I noticed immediately is that it is much quieter than the LP2. I suspect this is due to the change in tube type. The 427A family, while being very musical, isn't known for low microphonics. I think the .1 designation is apt. It is a refinement of an already good, multi-awarded design not a whole new product.
I can't think of anything else right now I would take for the same money. Fits my taste to a T at least with the higher output carts I have on hand.
Following on from the above, I bought a Tron Seven phono (and a Tron Seven pre as well, but that's another story) about 2 yrs ago. I had been using various phono stages, from the usual suspects, Audio Research, Nagra, etc - in the UK the Tron Seven phono in full-on "GT" guise costs £10k GBP, so it is a big investment. I would add, that a lot of posters on here seem to be dealers, distributors and the like - so I take their "reviews" with a pinch of salt. However, I am a private individual, and I actually bought the Tron Seven GT with my own, hard earned cash.
When you buy a Tron product you get to deal with the main man, Graham Tricker, hence the TOTL model carrying the GT tag. You get to speak to the designer, the product builder, tester, dealer, etc - as it is all the same bloke! The quality of components used in this is excellent and the internal build quality is an OCD-fetishists dream. Don't be fooled by the simple black casework; the magic happens inside.
Suffice to say, this is the best thing I ever bought, and whilst other bits of my system change, the T7GT remains. Why? Sound quality. It allows music to breathe, flow and pour out. Never mechanical or artificial, the sound is an emotional experience. The level of detail is better than anything I have had too, but it is the timbre, the sheer musicality that makes it better than anything I have heard or owned before.
I guess you buy based on a number of factors. Sound quality, build quality, value for money. I put my money where my mouth is.
I think it is just right that we dealer's opinions should indeed be taken with a grain of salt, maybe even a sack! I think we shouldn't forget however that we dealers and distributors put even more money where our mouths are 
Only fools would ever stock products they don't believe in.
Only fools would ever stock products they don't believe in. There are number of great phono stages, but the crux is to find something that has synergy with the rest of your vinyl replay set-up. For me, I'm a lover of Decca/London cartridges, having been entranced in the late 70s with my first MkVI Maroon and then a Garrott Brothers Gold. I now use as my daily cartridge a John Wright rebuilt Decca FFSS MkIV C4E, which feeds into a bespoke TRON Seven Reference, built to match my Decca. You might ask how. Well, Graham Tricker, the designer of TRON, builds every phono stage to order and will ask prospective owners about their cartridge, line stage and the rest of the system. GT, John Wright (the current London/Decca cartridge designer) and I discussed the optimal loading etc for a Decca FFSS MkIV. Hence my phono stage was built to match.
Some people find Deccas a bit strident, even though the immediacy and dynamism is almost unmatched. But the TRON Seven Reference just makes it sound so natural. I listen to live music almost every day. My wife has a Steinway Grand at the other end of our music room, and our house is a veritable menagerie of musical instruments (from trumpets to flutes, piccolos, drums, xylophone, harp and more). I spend my spare time in the photographers' pit at live gigs from The WHO to jazz bands at Ronnie Scott's in London, so I get exposed to live music of all forms all the time.
For me, I like to wear bespoke suits for work and I like the fact that my TRON Seven has been tailored to suit the rest of my system. How many phono stage manufacturers will go to that much trouble to make sure that it provides the maximum enjoyment for each and every customer?
Some people find Deccas a bit strident, even though the immediacy and dynamism is almost unmatched. But the TRON Seven Reference just makes it sound so natural. I listen to live music almost every day. My wife has a Steinway Grand at the other end of our music room, and our house is a veritable menagerie of musical instruments (from trumpets to flutes, piccolos, drums, xylophone, harp and more). I spend my spare time in the photographers' pit at live gigs from The WHO to jazz bands at Ronnie Scott's in London, so I get exposed to live music of all forms all the time.
For me, I like to wear bespoke suits for work and I like the fact that my TRON Seven has been tailored to suit the rest of my system. How many phono stage manufacturers will go to that much trouble to make sure that it provides the maximum enjoyment for each and every customer?
Just a FWIW... loading a cartridge has no effect on its signal whatsoever if it is a low output moving coil. The loading affects the phono section, not the cartridge. The exception is high output moving magnet cartridges- in their case, loading does affect them.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
+1 but with qualification. I apologize in advance for repetition if Atmasphere has already mentioned this in other threads.
Loading typically affects the signal in the megahertz range with moving coil cartridges. It is only with extreme values in simulations that the loading peak comes down below 1MHz. Some very long, very high-C tonearm cable designs possibly reach the values that might necessitate a bit of additional loading.
For the curious, here's an online calculator for an unloaded LC resonant tank circuit (the cartridge plus tonearm cable).
http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm
Hence, loading is useful with some phono stage designs, and is absolutely critical with phono stages that will overload with high frequency. Many budget models use a cheap opamp that don't have good overload characteristics. Nothing wrong with this, but then loading is extremely beneficial as these resonant peaks can reach 20dBV or more (albeit at frequencies that even bats can't hear).
You also have to look at a cartridge as an electrical generator. Hence, high loading (below 100 ohms for example) will strain the ability of the cartridge to deliver current. The result is damping that can be beneficial if there are coil, cantilever or other mechanical resonances that need to be controlled. Also, some systems have 1-inch or larger tweeters that beam or tweeter domes/diaphragms that resonate. High loading also can be beneficial as system bandwidth rolls off (again with high loading) - which makes the system sound smoother. In this case, the problems in the phono side help with problems in the loudspeaker.
This is why some tonearm cables sound "wonderful". They have low capacitance and high inductance, and result in the cartridge/phono stage loading system being a RL low-pass filter. At values typically found in our high-end hifi systems, it can make the system sound smooth and detailed by filtering off above 15kHz.
Here's the online calculator if anyone has the time/curiosity:
http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/Low-pass-filter-calculator.php
This has been discussed numerous times at WBF. Here's another calculator with explanation http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
I always make a point of mentioning this sort of thing as there is so much mythology around the loading issue!
You're welcome Gary, but who am I to teach you anything; though I strongly suggest people read this thread http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?15077-Cartridge-Loading-A-Misnomer/page7 which builds on this post showing JCarr's research http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ing-A-Misnomer&p=258578&viewfull=1#post258578
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Thanks, ack. Great read - on those two other threads. Sorry, I've been too busy to keep up to wbf lately!!
Atmasphere - yes, I agree that there is just too much mythology about phono loading. Even I simply believed the marketing literature before I decide to examine the math and physics myself. I had been sold previously on two phono stages that had "fantastic loading options" before I learned better.
Atmasphere - yes, I agree that there is just too much mythology about phono loading. Even I simply believed the marketing literature before I decide to examine the math and physics myself. I had been sold previously on two phono stages that had "fantastic loading options" before I learned better.
We use a loading strip so you can mount any resistor you want to load the cartridge. With LOMC it does not make a lot of difference since we have done a lot to reduce RFI problems in the circuit. But if you have a MM cartridge, the loading option can be really helpful!
Hi A, The Decca Sum and difference and Moving iron carts came for an era where loading was not usually an option- 47KOhm being the norm or variances of.
I've owned the Deccas in many setups over the years and found the MM 47K sonics to my liking set in the Breuer Arms
Others may have different views
Good Listening
BruceD
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