I agree with you 100% Great sound at an audio show in a given room is much more rare than mediocre to bad sound. That's why it's much more impressive to hear a system really strut its stuff at a show vice damning all equipment in a room where the sound is not very good. I tend to talk up the rooms that were able to pull of the seemingly impossible by achieving great sound (or what I think sounds great) rather than beating up on those rooms that I thought sounded poor. For example, after last year's RMAF (2013), I couldn't say enough good things about Paragon's room. At RMAF 2012, I was blown away by Carl's room with the Nola KO speakers. Enough so that I put my money where my mouth was and bought a pair recently.
Better Than Class A amp?
- Thread starter dallasjustice
- Start date
I agree with you 100% Great sound at an audio show in a given room is much more rare than mediocre to bad sound. That's why it's much more impressive to hear a system really strut its stuff at a show vice damning all equipment in a room where the sound is not very good. I tend to talk up the rooms that were able to pull of the seemingly impossible by achieving great sound (or what I think sounds great) rather than beating up on those rooms that I thought sounded poor. For example, after last year's RMAF (2013), I couldn't say enough good things about Paragon's room. At RMAF 2012, I was blown away by Carl's room with the Nola KO speakers. Enough so that I put my money where my mouth was and bought a pair recently.
Did you read what Tim said? Sacred cows? That people would dismiss a Class D amp even if it was better than a Class A design because they're biased? Bull.
I think a lot of folks hang on to the belief that class D must be a form of digital and therefore folks that like digital must like class D. That's where post #7 was coming from, right?
Michael.
Michael.
How's that SET's harmonic spray going?
Do you know the price of the Mola-Mola? Price bias? You're joking. LOL....
You made a great additional point that I failed to clearly state; you shouldn't conclude from an unimpressive system audition that any one component is not to your liking. It's always possible that an individual component's performance could be significantly better in a different setup where its strengths are more effectively heard.
Every time I hear ATC speakers I start running from the room!! (and yes, I have tried a pair in my system)
I've heard ATC SCM150ASL Pros sound sublime and I've heard ATC SCM100ASLT's sound horrible.
The front ends were excellent...master tape and test pressing on the former and digital via Antelope Rubicon with the latter.
My take on this is the ATC is VERY sensitive to room placement, volume/area, and acoustics.
Believe me, simplifying my audio life is quite appealing -- I've got SO many boxes
But, labor under no misapprehension -- box reduction in the quest for simplification is consonant with the pursuit of outstanding sound.
Running active speakers with a BAT REX, Atma-Sphere MP-1 Mk. 3.2, or Aesthetix Callisto Eclipse may very well accomplish component reduction and superior sound reproduction
As it stands, I have four monoblocks to drive the DALI MegaLine III loudspeakers.
Keith, agreed...the Luxman amps were leaps and bounds better. Interestingly, one of the a'philes that was present when we heard the Mola Mola's felt that the a'philes who liked tube gear would NOT like
the Mola Mola's and the one's who liked ss gear, would. Same for analog lovers vs. digital lovers. Personally, IF I felt the the Mola Mola's were great sounding amps, I couldn't care less IF they were Class D,
Tube or ss or steam amps for that matter. Unfortunately, I felt that the Mola Mola's just didn't cut the mustard.
Except we live in the real not hypothetical world.
And BTW, while you may have just latched onto the term "harmonic spray," others have used it for decades. Ben Duncan refers to it in his book on Amplifier design published back in 1996. So the term is hardly new and if it was so important, why is it only you have discovered it?
But more than that, all we need to know anyway is THD. That tells the whole story as you reiterated time and time again and left out the whole area of non-linear distortion. Which brings us back to harmonic spray that Ben Dincan shows is created in many instances by the inappropriate use of high negative feedback. And what is HNFB used for? To lower THD values.
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Keith, agreed...the Luxman amps were leaps and bounds better. Interestingly, one of the a'philes that was present when we heard the Mola Mola's felt that the a'philes who liked tube gear would NOT like
the Mola Mola's and the one's who liked ss gear, would. Same for analog lovers vs. digital lovers. Personally, IF I felt the the Mola Mola's were great sounding amps, I couldn't care less IF they were Class D,
Tube or ss or steam amps for that matter. Unfortunately, I felt that the Mola Mola's just didn't cut the mustard.
im going to disagree with you both, the vivid B1s with the luxman integrated was near the bottom of my list for the 2012 show (and yes, there is no point to this debate
) . best sound for me --and probably the most colored - was Jeff catalano's room with cessaro horns /thoress SET amps. unfortunately he moved from the atrium to a smaller room in the hilton last year and didn't have the same the magic.
im going to disagree with you both, the vivid B1s with the luxman integrated was near the bottom of my list for the 2012 show (and yes, there is no point to this debate
I was referring BTW to the Luxman Class-A amplifiers that I heard.
You know what's weird Myles? I tried the 10k Luxman Class A integrated for a week on my Zus and it sounded like cream. Seriously a bad match, although my speakers are finicky about amplification.
I was referring BTW to the Luxman Class-A amplifiers that I heard.
+1
The Luxman class A amps were the one's that I heard as well.
Rob, I heard the Cessaro horns with the thoress SET amps, as you say at the Hilton they didn't have magic, I would go one further and say they were a thin sounding and un-involving mess. Surprising that Jeff Catalano would have displayed that way.
Here are some shots of the mola mola amps lids off from Munich last year. They look like they are transformer coupled as well. I would love to see the lids off of the Rowland 925 or 825, Ncore variants.
A couple of things I would like to point out:
The Mola-Mola Amps that you heard where not the finale production versions. So until that time, none of your observations are valid. Also, at a show?? Come on lets be real. Fine it did not sound good to you. But to use that setting to right off any Audio equipment is a little naive and unfair. I can not count the times that I heard the sound go from bad to good back to bad etc at just one show over the course of a weekend.
I have compared the DIY NC400 Ncore mono amps vs the Veritas NC1200 Ncore mono amps in my system. While the NC400 is a lot of bang for the buck, it is not even in the same league as the NC1200. Paul Kaplan, of Waveform Cables, took his heavily modified NC400 monos and compared it to the Veritas monos and gave a big thumbs up to the Veritas.
My comments are about the NC1200 Ncore and the Veritas Amps.
The NC1200/Veritas is an extremely revealing amp. It adds nor takes away. What you put in you get out. So anything up stream that is amiss, even if you are not aware, will show through. At the same time what you have connected to its output will also need to be up to the task. It will not suffer cables that are use to correct others faults. It is very revealing, so sensitive to the cabling you use with it. But most great amps are to some way or another.
At the same time it will let you speakers show what the really can do. It will let them shine. But it will not correct any limits that is part of their design.
I have heard a variety of different speakers with the Veritas amps. Such as Horns, Electrostatic and hybrid, Planers/Mags, etc, and they all sounded great with the Veritas. Always better then the amps the owners of the speakers were using at the time. The ones that could afford to bought the Veritas amps. Most were Tube users and lovers. One example, ARC.
Now to not misunderstand me, I am not saying that the Veritas or the NC1200 is the best. Just that it is as dallasjustice implies. It deserves to be considered along with the best as an equal among equals. And at times multiplies of its cost.
There are several other manufactures that are looking to bring out their version of a NC1200 based amp. Some are way overdue. Some may give up.
I have not heard the Atsah. But I urge all of you to try and hear the Veritas, including dallasjustice. I mean really hear it. Leave it in you system for at least a few weeks. Leave it turned on at all times. If you can, try different power cords. And talk to Merrill about your system before hand.
A few more things;
I was never a Class D kind of guy. (And lets all understand that it is NOT a digital amp) I like both Tubes and Class A SS. Before I bought the Veritas, one amp high on my list was Pass Labs monos.
Look some of us like Vanilla and some of us like Chocolate ice cream. They are both great tasting its just personal preference.
The Mola-Mola Amps that you heard where not the finale production versions. So until that time, none of your observations are valid. Also, at a show?? Come on lets be real. Fine it did not sound good to you. But to use that setting to right off any Audio equipment is a little naive and unfair. I can not count the times that I heard the sound go from bad to good back to bad etc at just one show over the course of a weekend.
I have compared the DIY NC400 Ncore mono amps vs the Veritas NC1200 Ncore mono amps in my system. While the NC400 is a lot of bang for the buck, it is not even in the same league as the NC1200. Paul Kaplan, of Waveform Cables, took his heavily modified NC400 monos and compared it to the Veritas monos and gave a big thumbs up to the Veritas.
My comments are about the NC1200 Ncore and the Veritas Amps.
The NC1200/Veritas is an extremely revealing amp. It adds nor takes away. What you put in you get out. So anything up stream that is amiss, even if you are not aware, will show through. At the same time what you have connected to its output will also need to be up to the task. It will not suffer cables that are use to correct others faults. It is very revealing, so sensitive to the cabling you use with it. But most great amps are to some way or another.
At the same time it will let you speakers show what the really can do. It will let them shine. But it will not correct any limits that is part of their design.
I have heard a variety of different speakers with the Veritas amps. Such as Horns, Electrostatic and hybrid, Planers/Mags, etc, and they all sounded great with the Veritas. Always better then the amps the owners of the speakers were using at the time. The ones that could afford to bought the Veritas amps. Most were Tube users and lovers. One example, ARC.
Now to not misunderstand me, I am not saying that the Veritas or the NC1200 is the best. Just that it is as dallasjustice implies. It deserves to be considered along with the best as an equal among equals. And at times multiplies of its cost.
There are several other manufactures that are looking to bring out their version of a NC1200 based amp. Some are way overdue. Some may give up.
I have not heard the Atsah. But I urge all of you to try and hear the Veritas, including dallasjustice. I mean really hear it. Leave it in you system for at least a few weeks. Leave it turned on at all times. If you can, try different power cords. And talk to Merrill about your system before hand.
A few more things;
I was never a Class D kind of guy. (And lets all understand that it is NOT a digital amp) I like both Tubes and Class A SS. Before I bought the Veritas, one amp high on my list was Pass Labs monos.
Look some of us like Vanilla and some of us like Chocolate ice cream. They are both great tasting its just personal preference.
I will be getting the Veritas in a couple of weeks to try out. After that, I'll probably try out the Mola Mola. Unfortunately, I can't have all 3 ncore amps in my room at the same time. I am pretty sure my next amp will be one of the ncore amps. I just don't know which one yet.
Michael.
Al did you read the whole post? The very first caveat was that the listening was under show conditions. That said, however, perhaps there's something to the sound when one hears the same qualities across many rooms, many shows and many pieces of equipment?
Actually, the Mola Mola's that I heard were at a show AND in a personal system. In both instances they were less than impressive. I was told they were the final production versions in the latter system.
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