Even more so when you consider most use a SMPS, but I guess that is why they are using coils, inductors, and bug zappers to beat the noise down.
Better Than Class A amp?
- Thread starter dallasjustice
- Start date
Even more so when you consider most use a SMPS, but I guess that is why they are using coils, inductors, and bug zappers to beat the noise down.
Theta refers to the other nc1200 hypex amps as "other ncore 1200 brethren." If there's not an nc1200 amp module in the Prometheus, they are definitely misleading the customer. I think it's pretty clear from their website that they use an nc1200 module.
I bet the lower power output is due to the LPSU. They would need to have pretty massive LPSU to deliver the power the SMPS can deliver.
Last edited:
You are right Bruce… Veritas is a very fine sounding mono amp implementation using the NCore NC1200 module and its companion unregulated SMPS from Hypex. In veritas, all wiring is by Cardas, and the input connectors are wired directly onto the module without input transformers. See my 4 months long, 1K hours break-in experience with Merrill Veritas scribbled at:
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue68/merrill_audio.htm
Once Veritas were completely broken in, in my setup of that time, consisting of Esoteric X-01, Rowland Criterion preamp, Vienna Die Muzik speakers, and a loom of Aural symphonic wires (review sample), the sound was far from being surfacy, trebly, jarring, or uninvolving in any way. Rather, I experienced a high degree of 3D staging and imaging, good transparency, even frequency extension without obvious hotspots or suckouts, absence of jarring intermodulation of multi-part treble harmonies, a degree of authority more than suitable for my speakers, and a listening experience which was fully enjoyable and not fatiguing in the long term.
My experience with Veritas at RMAF 2013 was quite different…. The sound from the system featuring Veritas was eminently forgettable: surfacy, slightly trebly, moderately resolving, uninvolving, with almost a dusty quality to it. I can only venture to guess that it was the result of a suite with poor acoustics, probably turbid AC feed from the mains, incomplete break-in, and a less than synergistic combination of ancillary equipment… Not at all the sound that Veritas generated in my system.
G.
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue68/merrill_audio.htm
Once Veritas were completely broken in, in my setup of that time, consisting of Esoteric X-01, Rowland Criterion preamp, Vienna Die Muzik speakers, and a loom of Aural symphonic wires (review sample), the sound was far from being surfacy, trebly, jarring, or uninvolving in any way. Rather, I experienced a high degree of 3D staging and imaging, good transparency, even frequency extension without obvious hotspots or suckouts, absence of jarring intermodulation of multi-part treble harmonies, a degree of authority more than suitable for my speakers, and a listening experience which was fully enjoyable and not fatiguing in the long term.
My experience with Veritas at RMAF 2013 was quite different…. The sound from the system featuring Veritas was eminently forgettable: surfacy, slightly trebly, moderately resolving, uninvolving, with almost a dusty quality to it. I can only venture to guess that it was the result of a suite with poor acoustics, probably turbid AC feed from the mains, incomplete break-in, and a less than synergistic combination of ancillary equipment… Not at all the sound that Veritas generated in my system.
G.
It is a NC1200 module used in the Theta, I called to verify (I am seriously considering purchasing). Please note what I posted earlier in the thread surrounding the ratings at the various distortion levels (my other post is waiting for moderator approval...maybe they will both post at the same time)
Guido-take a look at the NCORE NC1200 datasheet. The power ratings match Theta's power ratings at various distortion levels, Theta is just advertising the rating at a lower level of distortion than the other manufacturers.
I have a Rowland Continuum S2 integrated that I am in the process of departing with in order to buy a pair of monos, as I don't need the integrated in my new setup...trying to make the call. I must say that I can only hope that I can outperform the S2 in bypass mode with their replacement!
I just noticed my other post from earlier today still hasn't been approved for posting....so please excuse the somewhat double post.
Guido-take a look at the NCORE NC1200 datasheet. The power ratings match Theta's power ratings at various distortion levels, Theta is just advertising the rating at a lower level of distortion than the other manufacturers.
I have a Rowland Continuum S2 integrated that I am in the process of departing with in order to buy a pair of monos, as I don't need the integrated in my new setup...trying to make the call. I must say that I can only hope that I can outperform the S2 in bypass mode with their replacement!
I just noticed my other post from earlier today still hasn't been approved for posting....so please excuse the somewhat double post.
Actually, it appears that my other post never got put up, but my later one did...weird. Anyway, that missing post basically indicated that the Theta Prometheus puts out the following power levels:
8 Ohms: 250W RMS with less than 0.01% THD from 20 Hz to 20 kHz;
300W RMS with less than 1.0% THD from 20 Hz to 20 kHz;
350W RMS with less than 1.0% THD, 1 kHz;
395W RMS with less than 1% THD, 1 kHz, Burst Mode
4 Ohms: 500W RMS with less than 0.01% THD from 20 Hz to 20 kHz;
700W RMS with less than 1.0% THD from 20 Hz to 20 kHz;
800W RMS with less than 1% THD, 1 kHz, Burst Mode
2 Ohms: 850W RMS with less than 0.01% THD from 20 Hz to 20 kHz;
950W RMS with less than 1.0% THD from 20 Hz to 20 kHz.
Check out the NCORE data sheet...it appears they match per distortion levels. Can someone let me know if I am missing something?
The unit is said to be built with a 1.44kv toroid for each mono side....should be interesting!
8 Ohms: 250W RMS with less than 0.01% THD from 20 Hz to 20 kHz;
300W RMS with less than 1.0% THD from 20 Hz to 20 kHz;
350W RMS with less than 1.0% THD, 1 kHz;
395W RMS with less than 1% THD, 1 kHz, Burst Mode
4 Ohms: 500W RMS with less than 0.01% THD from 20 Hz to 20 kHz;
700W RMS with less than 1.0% THD from 20 Hz to 20 kHz;
800W RMS with less than 1% THD, 1 kHz, Burst Mode
2 Ohms: 850W RMS with less than 0.01% THD from 20 Hz to 20 kHz;
950W RMS with less than 1.0% THD from 20 Hz to 20 kHz.
Check out the NCORE data sheet...it appears they match per distortion levels. Can someone let me know if I am missing something?
The unit is said to be built with a 1.44kv toroid for each mono side....should be interesting!
Hi BK, those are very detailed distortion specs. If you obtain Prometheus, do keep us informed about its sonic evolution as it breaks in. I noticed the manual recommends one week of break-in… I suspect this may be a very optimistic figure. Is the listed price of $6K for a pair, or is that the price for one chassis? G.
I suspect you might be right BK, Prometheus might sound different from Rowland Continuum S2 operating in bypass mode... Besides using regulated SMPS, CS2 is based on a power conversion module by Pascal, and its inputs are transformer coupled.
I do not know if Prometheus uses transformer-coupled inputs, or some other form of input management, or uses simple direct-to-NCore wiring like Veritas. G.
I do not know if Prometheus uses transformer-coupled inputs, or some other form of input management, or uses simple direct-to-NCore wiring like Veritas. G.
My theta Citadel 1.5 mono blocks have been replaced by these Prometheus mono blocks and my own subjective take is that the Prometeus Improve nicely with burn in and overall are clearly better sonically than the Citadels if you are ever in thr Phoenix area contact me for a demo!
I am listening with the Merrill Veritas amps in now. I think Bruce mentioned non-fatiguing. So, I put on some music that can be fatiguing at high volume, due to recording quality. I am listening to Jane's Addiction, Ritual de lo habitual. The veritas bring control and dignity to this album. Even at high volumes, Three Days never spins out of control. I never feel like I need to reach for the remote during the more dynamic conclusion. There's nothing lost in resolution listening to hi-res Hiromi. These are top tier amps for sure.
Michael.
Michael.
Last edited:
Glad to hear you are enjoying them. I have been telling fellow Audiophiles for over a year to look past their preconceived notions on Class A/AB/D-SS or Tubes and give them an honest listen. Most who do really like what they hear and a good many of them end up buying the Veritas after.
Just make sure to leave the Amps on all the time and give them a good 24-48 hours of play to get to their optimum. They will sound good after a couple of hours but will continue to improve over the course of a few days. I am assuming that you have a demo pair that already has many hours on them. Otherwise to sound their best (though they will sound dam good regardless) you will need to put more hours on them.
I was wondering, what power cords are you using. Are they the ones that come with the Veritas?
They are a demo pair. Merrill said to leave them on also.
I use kimber pk10 PCs. I plug each mono into a seperate winding on a Torus RM60. I used to own very expensive PCs. Since the Torus, they make no difference. I doubt the triode PCs will change anything but I will try it. I am not using the still points either. The amps are resting on 5 wave kinetics a10-u8.
http://wavekinetics.com/products/a10-u8/
How do you like to Wave Kinetics footers? Have you had a good chance to compare them to the Stillpoints "coupling" products? I checked out the WK webpage, their technology looks interesting, and their tech comparison page makes sense to me.
On a somewhat related note, I took the plunge on a pair of the Theta Prometheus...very early on, but these things are incredible. I recommend trying to get your ears on a pair before making the plunge with one of the switch mode NC1200 designs. I was very sad to pack up my Rowland Continuum S2, but the sound of these has made me much less regretful of selling that beautiful piece.
Adding to dallasjustice's observation, the lack of fatigue in Veritas is not caused by masking with hi frequency filter, or artful transient smoothing... Rather, This quality appears to be an inherent property of broken-in NCore NC1200 not generating audible treble intermodulation artifacts. I have observed the same in all well broken-in NCore amps that I have listen to: Veritas, Rowland M825, and Rowland M925, as well as the only Pascal-based amp I have heard -- Rowland Continuum S2.
Conversely, there were still traces of treble hardness and transient steeliness in Mola-Mola Kaluga, which had less than 200 hours on it.
G.
Conversely, there were still traces of treble hardness and transient steeliness in Mola-Mola Kaluga, which had less than 200 hours on it.
G.
On the other hand, thinking about it, all the well-behaved amps I just mentioned above (veritas, M825, M925, Continuum S2) are implemented with non resonant-chassis construction, internal Cardas wiring, and Cardas output terminals... All of these characteristics may very well be part of the solution set. G.
No, I have recently read that Mola-Mola Kaluga may not be released until June... Not quite sure. My own amps are Rowland M925.
Guido
Guido
NCORE vs. UCD and Atsah vs. Veritas
I have had the Veritas for a couple of weeks. I haven't listened as much as I wanted so far. But there are some absolutes I could say at this point.
NCORE vs. Ucd
I have had some excellent Hypex Ucd amps in my room. I have always loved the bass. I am used to serious bass. My system delivers very accurate bass. Most audiophiles hear that and think, "It must me too lean an analytical." My experience with bass is very simple. The more accurate it gets, the more of it you hear; in that order. Yes, I know how to use a microphone.
The difference between Ucd and NCORE is not the bass. It's the mid and highs. To me the mids and highs are far more sophisticated with the NCORE 1200 amps; Veritas and Atsah. How sophisticated? I put it up there with my former Krell 900e monoblocks. Those are serious amps and close to perfect for system. Even the premiere Ucd amps don't have this level of sophistication.
Atsah vs. Veritas
They are sonic siblings. It would be silly to argue otherwise. The basic designs are the same. They both use the same unmodified NCORE SMPS and NCORE 1200 module from Hypex. Sonically, I would give the nod to the Veritas. They are a little more resolving, but not by much and I don't have them side-by-side. So, if an Atsah owner calls me out on this, I won't fight back.
The big difference is the case and the parts. The Veritas case is a much better design, IMO. Over the long haul, small things like case design can become a really big deal. Folks need to know that the NCORE 1200 amps are NOT cool running amps like the Ucd amps. The Atsah case is really nice and totally solid with excellent binding posts. However, there isn't any meaningful ventilation. It's my understanding the case acts like one heatsink. The Atsah doesn't get Krell-hot, but it gets hot for sure. Especially after some Awolnation!
OTOH, the Veritas amps are made from solid billet and some serious effort has been made to isolate the SMPS from the NCORE 1200 module. I don't know how significant that isolation is but Bruno seems to agree with that approach, if one looks at the Mola Mola Kaluga photos. The Veritas case also has some well placed ventilation. Even after the most intense music, the Veritas barely get warm. Also, the Veritas binding posts are Cardas; enough said there. Merrill clearly thought things through and built a first rate product. I know he would stand behind any problems in the future. Talking to him, it's clear he is in this business for all the right reasons. These days, there are more and more venture capitalists looking at this hobby as a way to make a quick buck. Unfortunately, the world economy is moving back to a deflation, IMO. The high end markets are the last markets that can still be very strong due to many high income customers. It's really hard to know who you can trust these days. I have no doubt that John Young and Merrill are good folks and in this business for all the right reasons.
I plan on hearing the Mola Mola Kaluga amps before I make up my mind. My understanding is that the Mola Mola Kaluga should be shipping to the US distributor, Phillip, very soon. I look forward to hearing a pair very soon.
Michael.
I have had the Veritas for a couple of weeks. I haven't listened as much as I wanted so far. But there are some absolutes I could say at this point.
NCORE vs. Ucd
I have had some excellent Hypex Ucd amps in my room. I have always loved the bass. I am used to serious bass. My system delivers very accurate bass. Most audiophiles hear that and think, "It must me too lean an analytical." My experience with bass is very simple. The more accurate it gets, the more of it you hear; in that order. Yes, I know how to use a microphone.
The difference between Ucd and NCORE is not the bass. It's the mid and highs. To me the mids and highs are far more sophisticated with the NCORE 1200 amps; Veritas and Atsah. How sophisticated? I put it up there with my former Krell 900e monoblocks. Those are serious amps and close to perfect for system. Even the premiere Ucd amps don't have this level of sophistication. Atsah vs. Veritas
They are sonic siblings. It would be silly to argue otherwise. The basic designs are the same. They both use the same unmodified NCORE SMPS and NCORE 1200 module from Hypex. Sonically, I would give the nod to the Veritas. They are a little more resolving, but not by much and I don't have them side-by-side. So, if an Atsah owner calls me out on this, I won't fight back.
The big difference is the case and the parts. The Veritas case is a much better design, IMO. Over the long haul, small things like case design can become a really big deal. Folks need to know that the NCORE 1200 amps are NOT cool running amps like the Ucd amps. The Atsah case is really nice and totally solid with excellent binding posts. However, there isn't any meaningful ventilation. It's my understanding the case acts like one heatsink. The Atsah doesn't get Krell-hot, but it gets hot for sure. Especially after some Awolnation!
OTOH, the Veritas amps are made from solid billet and some serious effort has been made to isolate the SMPS from the NCORE 1200 module. I don't know how significant that isolation is but Bruno seems to agree with that approach, if one looks at the Mola Mola Kaluga photos. The Veritas case also has some well placed ventilation. Even after the most intense music, the Veritas barely get warm. Also, the Veritas binding posts are Cardas; enough said there. Merrill clearly thought things through and built a first rate product. I know he would stand behind any problems in the future. Talking to him, it's clear he is in this business for all the right reasons. These days, there are more and more venture capitalists looking at this hobby as a way to make a quick buck. Unfortunately, the world economy is moving back to a deflation, IMO. The high end markets are the last markets that can still be very strong due to many high income customers. It's really hard to know who you can trust these days. I have no doubt that John Young and Merrill are good folks and in this business for all the right reasons.
I plan on hearing the Mola Mola Kaluga amps before I make up my mind. My understanding is that the Mola Mola Kaluga should be shipping to the US distributor, Phillip, very soon. I look forward to hearing a pair very soon.
Michael.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
+1... I really liked the Veritas when I heard them. They were very musical and pleasing to the ear, even after several hours!
Similar threads
