Boulder 3060 smooth and a maybe even a bit warm?

[pk_LA]

If you have any hesitation about "musicality" (whatever we all mean by that term) with the 3060, then I think you already have your answer. Any such hesitation, I believe, will only gnaw at you more over time. From your hesitation I deduce that the Boulder is not the right amp for you. (And unless dCS has changed their house sound, I do not think that dCS components are on the warm side of the sonic spectrum.)

I assume you want to stay with solid-state. Have you considered a Gryphon Mephisto? I think that amplifier would give you the bass and low noise floor you want without sacrificing "musicality."

I did consider the Mephisto. What scared me is the lack of North American support.

I am also thinking about the dartzeel 468. I spoke with the NA distributor today - very nice guy. The problem there is I need to fly to the East Coast to hear it. Oh, and then there's the price. It has taken me weeks to justify the cost of the 3060.

I suspect that I'll like whatever I get. Initially. It'll be over time that I either 'want' for more or am 'happy'.

I am also mindful of the preamp decision. I currently run the dCS direct into the d'Agostino. I am going to get a preamp this go-around. I am inclined to get a tube preamp with the VTL TL-7.5 being the most likely

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I did consider the Mephisto. What scared me is the lack of North American support.

I am also thinking about the dartzeel 468. I spoke with the NA distributor today - very nice guy. The problem there is I need to fly to the East Coast to hear it. Oh, and then there's the price. It has taken me weeks to justify the cost of the 3060.

I suspect that I'll like whatever I get. Initially. It'll be over time that I either 'want' for more or am 'happy'.

I am also mindful of the preamp decision. I currently run the dCS direct into the d'Agostino. I am going to get a preamp this go-around. I am inclined to get a tube preamp with the VTL TL-7.5 being the most likely

i'm in Seattle and would be glad to have you visit. anytime. cheap plane ticket up and back in one day if you want. as far as hearing it with Wilson's, then yes; maybe the East Coast. a few choices for that there.

darTZeel is an end game choice. agree it's a big commitment. but then you are done. the battery powered dart pre is also an end game move. you will save many dollars on interconnects between the pre and amps with the 'zeel'.

 

[pk_LA]

I should mention one other constraint...

I am on the tail end of a major remodel. The current plan is to tear into the walls early next week to plumb the 240/32A line for the Boulder. If I am going to stay with the Boulder I prefer to keep that schedule as it'll be a pain to later displace the furniture to tear into the walls and then repaint etc.

 

[pk_LA]

i'm in Seattle and would be glad to have you visit. anytime. cheap plane ticket up and back in one day if you want. as far as hearing it with Wilson's, then yes; maybe the East Coast.

Hi Mike,

If you are being literal I might take you up on the offer.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,

If you are being literal I might take you up on the offer.

absolutely. PM me and we can figure out a good time.

 

[microstrip]

(...) 2) Why not the m400s? I am kind of ready for something different. The s250 is fantastic. But, it also has a 'sound' to it that is, well, a signature if you will. (...)
dd

The M400's sound great, particularly with their preamplifier (latest version) , that I consider exceptional. No comparison at all with the s250 IMHO.

Are you wanting to drive the amplifier without a preamplifier?

 

[bryans]

I should mention one other constraint...

I am on the tail end of a major remodel. The current plan is to tear into the walls early next week to plumb the 240/32A line for the Boulder. If I am going to stay with the Boulder I prefer to keep that schedule as it'll be a pain to later displace the furniture to tear into the walls and then repaint etc.

My personal advice would be to put in the 240/32A line regardless. Yes it will cost a bit more but in the big scheme of things I would do it during the remodel.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I did consider the Mephisto. What scared me is the lack of North American support.

. . .

Rune Skov, a friend of mine, is now the President of Gryphon North America. I do not think you shold be concerned about North American support.

If it helps at all the Pendragon loudspeakers are a lot bigger, heavier, more complicated and more delicate than the Mephisto, and I am comfortable relying upon Rune to get my Pendragons installed by Niels Madsen, Technical Director for Gryphon Audio Designs, and to handle any issues which (hopefully do not) arise.

In addition, have you ever even heard of anything going wrong with a Gryphon Mephisto? I literally have not.

Finally, not every cartridge or amp is everyone's cup of tea, but there are two products about which I have never heard a serious critical word or a mechanical problem: the Air Tight Opus 1, and the Gryphon Mephisto.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am going to get a preamp this go-around. I am inclined to get a tube preamp with the VTL TL-7.5 being the most likely

Because of my personal, subjective, sonic preferences I subscribe to the view that "every system should have a tube somewhere." I would say you cannot go wrong with a VTL TL-7.5 Series III. It actually is the pre-amp I will be getting.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I should mention one other constraint...

I am on the tail end of a major remodel. The current plan is to tear into the walls early next week to plumb the 240/32A line for the Boulder. If I am going to stay with the Boulder I prefer to keep that schedule as it'll be a pain to later displace the furniture to tear into the walls and then repaint etc.

I would stay with that plan even if you do not get the Boulder! It is always good to have 240VAC capability in a listening room. Other large solid-state amps also accept 240VAC. Also, some subwoofers prefer 240VAC. There is no downside to having that capability in your room.

 

[dan31]

I would stick with the Boulder, given you have heard it and liked the amp. You can always season with source and cables.
If you really want to feel safe about “warm” consider the VTL big monos. Lots of Wilson pairings with the big VTL monos.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I d go for Boulder 3060 as well .
Although i havent heard the latest top brass solidstate .

If you doubt the sound quality for a bit just look/ touch your perfectly constructed gear and i assume the disadvantages of solidstate will soon be forgotten for a while

Taking mike up on the offer would be wise decision i think .

May be buy a pair of Jl 7 s on the side to switch once in a while .
Luxury problems , lol

Brg hj

 

[LL21]

I hardly think the Boulder 3060 could ever be conceived as anything but a lifetime achievement in high end audio system building. The consensus of so many people I spoke with about this who owned/have heard the 3060 specifically: built like the proverbial tank, endless reserves of power, an insanely low noise floor, effortless, effortless, effortless, filigreed on the one hand and gargantuan reserves for bass and particularly subterranean low frequency spacial cues, etc.

 

[andromedaaudio]

@ PK -LA

Bass from a speaker is dependent on many things (woofer low freq roll off , membrane surface / material , impedance graph etc )
But from all the SS i have tried ( incl big krell monos ) , the Boulder was the only one which combined absolute control with a actual slightly more perceived bass extension .

Ps The fact you are running digital direct could very well be the reason you lack bass , a good preamp adds bass control/ extension / definition

 

[Ron Resnick]

I hardly think the Boulder 3060 could ever be conceived as anything but a lifetime achievement in high end audio system building. The consensus of so many people I spoke with about this who owned/have heard the 3060 specifically: built like the proverbial tank, endless reserves of power, an insanely low noise floor, effortless, effortless, effortless, filigreed on the one hand and gargantuan reserves for bass and particularly subterranean low frequency spacial cues, etc.

I am sure you are correct about each of your characterizations about Boulder. And that makes it an amazing amplifier for people who like that how it sounds in their systems.

And, yes, at this state-of-the-art level we are very likely talking about fine and cosmopolitan distinctions.

What were the sonic reasons you selected, first, the Mephisto over a Boulder? What were the sonic reasons you then choose Robert Koda over a Boulder?

What was the consensus of the people you spoke with about the 3060 regarding its overall sonic presentation in terms of "cool," "neutral" or "warm"? Where did the consensus place it on this particular sonic spectrum?

Did you find any tendency for the 3060 to be placed in a greater than usual proportion of digital systems versus analog systems? (I fully concede I have no idea how we would measure that!)

I am simply wondering if people who prefer the sound of digital playback systems over analog playback systems also tended to prefer the sound of the 3060 (for all of the wonderful sonic and build quality reasons you suggest above) over "warmer" sounding amplifiers (which might appeal more to audiophiles who prefer analog playback systems)?

Also, I concede, I am speculating from afar. I am still merely assuming, without knowing, that the Boulder 3060 has the very slightly cool overall sonic presentation I personally heard from Boulder amplifiers in the past. Perhaps the 3060 has a different sonic presentation on this particular sonic spectrum than prior Boulder amplifiers.

 

[gds7368]

I hardly think the Boulder 3060 could ever be conceived as anything but a lifetime achievement in high end audio system building. The consensus of so many people I spoke with about this who owned/have heard the 3060 specifically: built like the proverbial tank, endless reserves of power, an insanely low noise floor, effortless, effortless, effortless, filigreed on the one hand and gargantuan reserves for bass and particularly subterranean low frequency spacial cues, etc.

I would second these thoughts. I lived with a Boulder system (2110 preamplifier, 2120 DAC, 3060 amplifier) with Nordost Odin cables and Magico M Project speakers for about 5 years. Source was always digital, so my opinions are limited to my room and to my equipment. Started Mac Mini then Roon Nucleus Plus then Aurender W20. The step up from each music server was very easy to appreciate. I also heard the MSB Select2 in place of the 2110 preamplifier.

I found well recorded music sounded excellent with the 3060, though lesser recordings weren't as enjoyable as they were on my friends' systems (which cost much less, and which often had a tube somewhere).

My strong advice would be to choose source components thoughtfully - vinyl, server, ?R2R? - and to try it with both a solid state and tube preamplifier. What the 3060 does well, it does very very well. It provided zero warmth to recordings in my system; it just played them with authority, grip, finesse, and power, and didn't appear to break a sweat in the process.

Like any of this really heavy equipment, safe/piano movers were needed to get it installed at 425 pounds (including the granite base). And the beautiful unattached granite base - sourced from local Colorado quarries - saved me from buying an expensive amplifier stand.

Good luck in your decision !!!!!

 

[LL21]

I would second these thoughts. I lived with a Boulder system (2110 preamplifier, 2120 DAC, 3060 amplifier) with Nordost Odin cables and Magico M Project speakers for about 5 years. Source was always digital, so my opinions are limited to my room and to my equipment. Started Mac Mini then Roon Nucleus Plus then Aurender W20. The step up from each music server was very easy to appreciate. I also heard the MSB Select2 in place of the 2110 preamplifier.

I found well recorded music sounded excellent with the 3060, though lesser recordings weren't as enjoyable as they were on my friends' systems (which cost much less, and which often had a tube somewhere).

My strong advice would be to choose source components thoughtfully - vinyl, server, ?R2R? - and to try it with both a solid state and tube preamplifier. What the 3060 does well, it does very very well. It provided zero warmth to recordings in my system; it just played them with authority, grip, finesse, and power, and didn't appear to break a sweat in the process.

Like any of this really heavy equipment, safe/piano movers were needed to get it installed at 425 pounds (including the granite base). And the beautiful unattached granite base - sourced from local Colorado quarries - saved me from buying an expensive amplifier stand.

Good luck in your decision !!!!!

Wow...you have a stunning room...what a great view out that window! You also have had one serious system there with the Boulder 3060...and I see you've moved on to the MSB 500 monos? How did that come about...would be curious as to how they compare for you?

 

[gds7368]

Wow...you have a stunning room...what a great view out that window! You also have had one serious system there with the Boulder 3060...and I see you've moved on to the MSB 500 monos? How did that come about...would be curious as to how they compare for you?

Thank you!

My Boulder/M Project system was in my basement theater (most wall panels absorption) and I wanted to build a new system in the first floor great room, not knowing how that room would sound. So I had the system professionally hauled upstairs and started there from scratch. Instantly better sound stage and dynamics, much more lively room, and a view!

Read Mike Lavigne's thoughful WBF post on the MSB Select DAC. Thanks Mike! Arranged an in-home demo and found the Select to be more organic than the Boulder 2120 DAC. The 2120 was clean, crisp and detailed but was not as natural or smooth as the Select in my system. Advertised the Boulder 2110/2120 and someone wanted the whole Boulder system ... so off it went.

The new funds found their way to an S500 stereo amplifier and then to M500 monoblock amplifiers. The M500s have a blacker background, wider soundstage (though not taller) and better microdynamics than the S500 in my room, but I wasn't listening to the S500s without enjoying them in any way. But once heard the M500s were clearly a step up.

My business partner has M500s, MSB Reference transport, and refurbished Studor and Otari R2R decks. Close-to-the-master, 30 IPS, 1/2 inch, tone-calibrated R2R recordings really sound like the band is in the room with the M500s. Just wonderful. And 16/44 can be very engaging and enjoyable, never wishing to grab the remote. I can only imagine the grip, control and ease the 3060 would have in this setup with proper power.

I'm getting closer to the promised land with my current system, but also never gave the 3060 the right front end to make it shine in my house. I think either amplifier could be mated to great sources and end up with phenomenal sound. I should have added analogue and a transport to the 3060, so I'm trying to live vicariously through you at this point

The 3060 did run warm and I found it took a couple hours to sound 100% (so I just left it on 365) whereas I can turn on the M500s and it sounds excellent to my ears in 30-60 minutes.

You are always welcome to come to Columbus, Ohio and listen to both of our systems in case you are interested!

(in my room, to my ears, etc)

 

[ashandger]

Very interesting thread. May I suggest an alternative - replace the DCS with Wadax Ref DAC and combine with Gryphon Antileon EVO amp either direct or via the VTL preamp recommended by Ron. Robert Harley used the Antileon EVO to drive the XVX and also reviewed it so may be worthwhile to check that out. Also, I suggest contacting Roy Gregory about using CH Precision amps with Alexx as he has extensive experience with both (not the V though unless he has it at present). Happy shopping and looking forward to your updates.

 

[LL21]

Thank you!

My Boulder/M Project system was in my basement theater (most wall panels absorption) and I wanted to build a new system in the first floor great room, not knowing how that room would sound. So I had the system professionally hauled upstairs and started there from scratch. Instantly better sound stage and dynamics, much more lively room, and a view!

Read Mike Lavigne's thoughful WBF post on the MSB Select DAC. Thanks Mike! Arranged an in-home demo and found the Select to be more organic than the Boulder 2120 DAC. The 2120 was clean, crisp and detailed but was not as natural or smooth as the Select in my system. Advertised the Boulder 2110/2120 and someone wanted the whole Boulder system ... so off it went.

The new funds found their way to an S500 stereo amplifier and then to M500 monoblock amplifiers. The M500s have a blacker background, wider soundstage (though not taller) and better microdynamics than the S500 in my room, but I wasn't listening to the S500s without enjoying them in any way. But once heard the M500s were clearly a step up.

My business partner has M500s, MSB Reference transport, and refurbished Studor and Otari R2R decks. Close-to-the-master, 30 IPS, 1/2 inch, tone-calibrated R2R recordings really sound like the band is in the room with the M500s. Just wonderful. And 16/44 can be very engaging and enjoyable, never wishing to grab the remote. I can only imagine the grip, control and ease the 3060 would have in this setup with proper power.

I'm getting closer to the promised land with my current system, but also never gave the 3060 the right front end to make it shine in my house. I think either amplifier could be mated to great sources and end up with phenomenal sound. I should have added analogue and a transport to the 3060, so I'm trying to live vicariously through you at this point

The 3060 did run warm and I found it took a couple hours to sound 100% (so I just left it on 365) whereas I can turn on the M500s and it sounds excellent to my ears in 30-60 minutes.

You are always welcome to come to Columbus, Ohio and listen to both of our systems in case you are interested!

(in my room, to my ears, etc)

Wow...what a rare experience and a great read! Thanks for taking the time. MSB are well regarded for their digital (and broadly known)...but fewer seem to focus on their amplification...though I have long noted that Martin Colloms always rated BOTH their digital and their amplification.

It is also quite good to read about your observations on 'getting it right' with extremely precise/exacting equipment like the Boulders. One to keep in the mental file for the future no doubt.