Break in period

[rsbeck]

I think when he said "your" ears, he meant, "ones" ears. Nobody specific. Just that ears in general combined with auditory memory in general are not very good at detecting such differences, which are likely to be tiny and mostly undetectable -- then he went on to say why, which had to do with several conditions which he went on to list.

Don't see why any specific person should be offended.

If you disagree, it doesn't mean you are offended, it just means you disagree.

Why should it kill anyone's buzz to find out that there are differing opinions out there?

I mean, I find it pretty astounding that anyone can hold an opinion different from mine.

I mean, come on, what's the point? Why be stubborn? Just save yourself a lot of trouble and give in to my unassailable logic for Pete's sake.

But.........offended?

Nahhhhhhhhh!

 

[jeromelang]

I supposed my XDS-1 will take a while to run in.
But, since I have changed the interconnects in the interim, and moved the new player into another system, I had lost "sight" (for want of a better word) of the sonic changes.
I shifted the XDS-1 into the living room system because I got fed up with the long waiting time.

I tell you what - I can hear sonic differences depending on how I cue up tracks to play on the XDS-1......
(which gave me the assurances to buy it)

It is the same story with a MPS-5 I tried.
Both the MPS-5 and the XDS-1 share the same attributes.
How you cue up a track to play on these 2 machines can have a discernible sonic difference.

 

[jasbirnandra]

breakin period

guys guys guys we are actually deviating from the main topic of discussion and getting personal lets cool it and keep on track of the topic

 

[Gregadd]

I would say if you don't like the sound when you first turn it on, return it. Any improvements should it be there, needs to be above and beyond.

AMIRM is that official store policy? You get a refund 'if you don't like the sound when you first turi it on,return it." Seriously, what advice do you give your customers regarding initial evaluation of purchases?

 

[amirm]

AMIRM is that official store policy?

Well, we do one better. For high-end gear, we allow in-home evaluation prior to purchase.

Seriously, what advice do you give your customers regarding initial evaluation of purchases?

Per above, we let them take them home. And we play them here. In all cases people are buying the gear based on what they are hearing now, not what they may hear hundreds of hours later.

FYI, our major supplier here, Harman, has done some break in tests. Specifically, with Revel speakers. The measurements show no change whatsoever (within the noise of the measurement error). So while I do recall my Mark Levinson DAC of 10+ years ago saying a few hours of break in improves things, I don't think that is a current and hardcore recommendation from them. For kicks, I just glanced at the manual for the Mark Levinson No 53 amps: http://www.marklevinson.com/downloads/products/prod_22_634473652731049237_No53_OM_rev1.pdf. While there is advice in there on how to set up its IP address to talk to the internal web server for instrument eek, there is not talk of burn-in period.

 

[Gregadd]

In home evaluation is a great way to go. Many dealers have suspended this option due to cost and the fear that the customer will go elsewhere for a better price.

It is indeed a luxury to have every model pre-run in and available for demo.

 

[microstrip]

(...) For kicks, I just glanced at the manual for the Mark Levinson No 53 amps: http://www.marklevinson.com/downloads/products/prod_22_634473652731049237_No53_OM_rev1.pdf. While there is advice in there on how to set up its IP address to talk to the internal web server for instrument eek, there is not talk of burn-in period.

Amir,

The manual of the ML32 refers to burn-in, although they call it break-in, in very precise terms:

Although the Nº32 delivers superior performance from the first time it is powered on, this performance will continue to improve as the Nº32 reaches its normal operating temperature and various components “break in.” The greatest performance improvements will occur within the first 25 to 50 hours of use. Sound quality will continue to improve for about 300 hours.
After this initial period, performance will remain consistent unless power is disconnected from the Nº32. Power is disconnected when the Nº32 is powered off with the power button; the power cord is disconnected from the ~ac mains connector or the electrical outlet; or an extended power failure or power outage occurs. Power is not disconnected when the Nº32 is in standby.
When power returns, it is recommended to allow the Nº32 and other audio components to stabilize for about 2 minutes. The Nº32 will require a brief warm-up and break-in period (not the full 300 hours).

 

[amirm]

Amir,

The manual of the ML32 refers to burn-in, although they call it break-in, in very precise terms:

Although the Nº32 delivers superior performance from the first time it is powered on, this performance will continue to improve as the Nº32 reaches its normal operating temperature and various components “break in.” The greatest performance improvements will occur within the first 25 to 50 hours of use. Sound quality will continue to improve for about 300 hours.
After this initial period, performance will remain consistent unless power is disconnected from the Nº32. Power is disconnected when the Nº32 is powered off with the power button; the power cord is disconnected from the ~ac mains connector or the electrical outlet; or an extended power failure or power outage occurs. Power is not disconnected when the Nº32 is in standby.
When power returns, it is recommended to allow the Nº32 and other audio components to stabilize for about 2 minutes. The Nº32 will require a brief warm-up and break-in period (not the full 300 hours).

I think that is typical of the documentation in that era as I noted about my ML DAC. I think the company's position has changed as reflected in lack of such statements in new products.

 

[thedudeabides]

I would say if you don't like the sound when you first turn it on, return it. Any improvements should it be there, needs to be above and beyond.

Hi amirm,

To site one example, the recent crop of Conrad Johnson preamps take a considerable amount of break in time and the sound changes quite dramatically as it goes through the process. I've been told it is because of the teflon capacitors that are used and numerous folks on this forum and others have verified this fact.

Assuming you agree that this does occur with some products, it's literally impossible to judge the final product, and what it will sound like post burn in, new / out of the box.

It's quite the conundrum.

Respectfully,

Gordon

 

[LL21]

Hi amirm,

To site one example, the recent crop of Conrad Johnson preamps take a considerable amount of break in time and the sound changes quite dramatically as it goes through the process. I've been told it is because of the teflon capacitors that are used and numerous folks on this forum and others have verified this fact.

Assuming you agree that this does occur with some products, it's literally impossible to judge the final product, and what it will sound like post burn in, new / out of the box.

It's quite the conundrum.

Respectfully,

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

I see where you are coming from...i have owned 3 CJ preamps...2 of them with the Teflon capacitors. I can confirm 300 hours is the minimum and 500-600 hours was the point at which i began to feel the unit had truly stabilized. That said, the CJ was magic out of the starting blocks, and it got better and 'more of exactly what it was from day one' as it burned in.

I am not saying the CJ components i owned did not burn in and change during that process...they did...it is just that the original voicing remains highly recognizeable...like a baby growing up to age 5...the face, the expressions, everything is still very much there, just filled in a bit more.

I suspect where Amirm was coming from is that if you dislike the initial voice, while the product may improve over time, an initial disklike is probably a bad proxy for how much you're gonna love the final voice. Amirm?

 

[amirm]

I suspect where Amirm was coming from is that if you dislike the initial voice, while the product may improve over time, an initial disklike is probably a bad proxy for how much you're gonna love the final voice. Amirm?

Exactly.

 

[jeromelang]

I suspect where Amirm was coming from is that if you dislike the initial voice, while the product may improve over time, an initial disklike is probably a bad proxy for how much you're gonna love the final voice. Amirm?

Very nice of you to provide an easy retreat for Amirm.

 

[mep]

Very nice of you to provide an easy retreat for Amirm.

I think it's the truth and I agree. If you don't like the sound of something brand new out of the box, you probably won't like it after break in either. If you find something to sound horrid when it's new, I doubt you will love it later.

 

[jeromelang]

I've come across cdp that sound no better than a cheap portable player, right out of the box.
It was horrid.
The rather bad sound remained so for up to seven days.
Interestingly, the break-in occurred during listening session.
In that 30 sec period, the Sony cdp-xa50es suddenly went phasey and muddy, and as sudden as it occurred, the haze lifted, and imaging gelled, and everything sounded right from that moment on.
My room mate sitting next to me, we both turned and looked at each other, and without a word, we both knew each of us had experienced the same thing.
I had never experienced another break in quite like this since.

My scd-1 and scd-xa777es took months to sound right.
The 1st scd-xa9000es I have had some design issue, which I slowly learnt to remedy.
After buying a second xa9000es unit, I i mmediately applied the same remedies to it.
So I have 2 units to compare with in the months to follow.
The 2nd unit took more than 6 months to start sounding like the 1st unit.

If I were to follow Amirm's and your suggestions, I would had to discard all these fine sounding machines.
I say they're still fine sounding, because when they were placed in a head to head comparison with the xds1, they don't lose out much.

The xds1 itself, is another piece of gear that is taking its own sweet time to come good...

 

[amirm]

If I were to follow Amirm's and your suggestions, I would had to discard all these fine sounding machines.

Good thing then that membership rules here doesn't dictate that you follow my advice or else .

As an electrical engineer and a businessman, it would be a failing on my part if I designed equipment that a) did not sound good out of the box and b) did not manage component aging/variations to a high degree as to make that much less of an issue if at all. Other manufacturers may have different standards and probably do. As a customer and a company distributing their products though, I would not go with them. If that means I pass on something that might ripen to a good sound, so be it. There are plenty of others that come ripe from the store .

Again, please don't read this as anything other than a member who might have a different point of view than you. We don't drive the same car, eat the same food, or spend the same money on audio. So it is perfectly fine to go a different direction. We have a forum so that we share these differing ideas and folks can then decide what insight they want to take from it.

 

[jeromelang]

Ha, ha. That's the right spirit.

I think the trouble with a lot if engineers is that they tend to ignore issues that occur outside of their respective learned disciplines. And the reason not more Hifi products are being aged properly on the shelves is because of precisely a business rationale - it will incur huge expenses.

In the end, it is the customers who properly factor in the issue of component aging when it comes to making a buying decisions who will have long term satisfaction.

 

[thedudeabides]

Hi Lloyd,

Thanks for the perspective.

I, for one, own a CJ preamp and love the "house" sound.

I will gladly put up with the ET5 (my next preamp) burn in process, if required, with a big smile on my face.

Gordon

 

[LL21]

Hi Lloyd,

Thanks for the perspective.

I, for one, own a CJ preamp and love the "house" sound.

I will gladly put up with the ET5 (my next preamp) burn in process, if required, with a big smile on my face.

Gordon

Yes! I am sure it would! Good luck and please keep us posted if you move that direction!