Breaking in gear. Does one really notice/remember a change?

[morricab]

OK I know this might start a firestorm but hopefully it will not.

I have been in the crazy hobby more years than I want to count. The one thing over the years that seem to be constant is the good old "gear needs to be broken in to sound it's best". Now I'm a believer that gear sounds better/different when warmed up. But when I hear people say something needs hundreds of hours to break in I'm not sure about that. I tend to think what happens is people get used to the sound after so many hours and it is "broken in" at that point. Or a better question is at what point does one believe the gear is broken in? Say a dealer says the new DAC you bought needs 300 hours to break in. So at what point in the 300 hour process does it happen? Heck how does one even remember what the DAC sounded like 100 or 200 hours into the break in process? Maybe my brain is just too old these days to remember specifically what something sounded like after hundreds of hours of listening.

It needs breaking in from new and it needs warm up time. One of my amps took over 200 hours to really reach a consistent sound. It takes 30 minutes to sound fully ready for serious listening as well. Many solid state DACs are better just being left on 24/7.

 

[Gregadd]

It needs breaking in from new and it needs warm up time. One of my amps took over 200 hours to really reach a consistent sound. It takes 30 minutes to sound fully ready for serious listening as well. Many solid state DACs are better just being left on 24/7.

Either you or Mike Lavigne should get an Avitar. I think all SS amps/preamps should have a standby mode. Then be activated by the presence of a signal. We have the technology.

Another comment I couldn't agree more with Do we sometimes get side-tracked and / or miss the real point of what we are aiming for, or should be doing, I wonder?
All I want to do is sit down in front of my system and lose myself in the experience. True, there is a period (initially) when I can't do that, but I know this, accept it, and wait for the system to come to life..... and it does.

Currently I am tweaking . That forces me to listen like an audio critic. I can't wait to get back to just turning on the music.

 

[Holmz]

<…> It's a controversial topic, and for myself I usually shy away from these discussion, because I have been ridiculed by such statement before, but whatsbestforum has been positive in this regard.

it wouldn’t controversial if everyone experienced it.
- Some know it to the root of their soul
- some think it is total BS
- some are not sure
- some don’t care

What would be handy is a list of the units that seem to exhibit it and those that do not.

I am certainly not prone to leaving tube gear on 24/7 and I am not sure how a unit in standby is the same as being fully left powered on?

 

[morricab]

Either you or Mike Lavigne should get an Avitar. I think all SS amps/preamps should have a standby mode. Then be activated by the presence of a signal. We have the technology.

Currently I am tweaking . That forces me to listen like an audio critic. I can't wait to get back to just turning on the music.

My friend's Plinius amp has a standby mode but it still doesn't sound good immediately...still needs probably and hour.

 

[Gregadd]

My friend's Plinius amp has a standby mode but it still doesn't sound good immediately...still needs probably and hour.

They need to enhance the standby mode.

 

[Holmz]

My friend's Plinius amp has a standby mode but it still doesn't sound good immediately...still needs probably and hour.

Maybe it needs a Phineus Gage?

 

[Geir]

it wouldn’t controversial if everyone experienced it.
- Some know it to the root of their soul
- some think it is total BS
- some are not sure
- some don’t care

What would be handy is a list of the units that seem to exhibit it and those that do not.

I am certainly not prone to leaving tube gear on 24/7 and I am not sure how a unit in standby is the same as being fully left powered on?

Don't think a list is needed. Those who experience it knows this apply to almost all equipment. Those who thinks it's BS do their own thing. It will be controversial no matter what, and this discussion will not change anything.

 

[PYP]

Many solid state DACs are better just being left on 24/7.

Agreed. It is a good idea to compare leaving it on vs. turning on only when using it. Nothing new to everyone here that experimenting is needed to get the best performance from what you already have.

And if the manufacturer expresses an opinion (leave it on, use balanced ICs, etc.) start there, but still try alternatives. Not even the designer can know all the variables the gear will encounter, perhaps especially the power available to the end user.

 

[new2Krell]

It's no so much as to recall how it sounded first, there are certain things that chance during break in. Mostly regarding lack of bass, holography, harsh treble, unbalanced presentation. When things stabilize I do not notice further changes and then it's done. Regarding cables, the most pronounced changes (and stubborn to break in) I have experienced is with cryogenically treated cables from Argento, Furutech and Lessloss. I mean between 500-1000 hours. Most equipment sounds good after 200 hours. It's a controversial topic, and for myself I usually shy away from these discussion, because I have been ridiculed by such statement before, but whatsbestforum has been positive in this regard.

In my opinion it is not right to ridicule anyone when describing what they have experinced. They are after all, personal experiences and we know this hobby is very subjective, thank goodness, because we all have different tastes, ears and listening rooms.
It a free world (well, mostly), and sharing experiences and ideas is, I believe, actually for the benefit of others. There is always something new to learn / pick up!
I must say though, some of the times you are talking about would certainly test my patience. I am really not sure I could listen to something for as long as that in the hope that it would settle down. But then, if I had previously heard the same item that was broken in and it was absolutely amazing, there would certainly be incentive to do so.

 

[new2Krell]

Currently I am tweaking . That forces me to listen like an audio critic. I can't wait to get back to just turning on the music.

I think we all do it now and again (well I do). I have just been tweaking a new set of valves after a failure. Just about there (the failure was end of October!). Never had such an issue before (my hearing going, I wonder?) and hope I don't again, but I can once again sit down and enjoy the music with normal, non-critical ears. What a lovely place to be!

 

[Gregadd]

By all means have your ears tested and cleaned. Painless ,inexpensive and informative. Make sure your ENT is equipped to test frequency response.

 

[Geir]

In my opinion it is not right to ridicule anyone when describing what they have experinced. They are after all, personal experiences and we know this hobby is very subjective, thank goodness, because we all have different tastes, ears and listening rooms.
It a free world (well, mostly), and sharing experiences and ideas is, I believe, actually for the benefit of others. There is always something new to learn / pick up!
I must say though, some of the times you are talking about would certainly test my patience. I am really not sure I could listen to something for as long as that in the hope that it would settle down. But then, if I had previously heard the same item that was broken in and it was absolutely amazing, there would certainly be incentive to do so.

If find the break in process frustrating, have used too many hours in front of the stereo like that. The example with Argento cables, was that I had a demo model of the Argento Serenity interconnect cable on loan from the dealer for a week. I was so impressed with cable, so I decided to order a new pair. When I got the new cables I was so concerned about the sound that I messaged the dealer to ask if there was a production error. It sounded very harsh sound and compressed in the beginning, and I could not understand this was the same cables. Yes, them took over 400 hours to really open up and continued to improve even further. The natural ebb and flow of the music is last to come. I do not sit a listen hour after hour (well I do that too, lol), but just let stereo play on repeat and test some familier tracks from time to time. Well enough said about this topic from my side now.

 

[Gregadd]

ME small signal cables take the longest time.

 

[microstrip]

Cables are equipment that can be easily burned-in and directly compared. Sometimes I feel guilty for do not buying two pairs of equal cables, burned a pair for a few hundred hours and compared with the non burned one or even tried null tests on them. But it is a boring exercise and I always had more interesting things to do.

BTW, I carried such test decades ago and found differences, but in conditions that today I consider unacceptable for such test.

 

[stehno]

OK I know this might start a firestorm but hopefully it will not.

What topic doesn't?

I have been in the crazy hobby more years than I want to count. The one thing over the years that seem to be constant is the good old "gear needs to be broken in to sound it's best". Now I'm a believer that gear sounds better/different when warmed up. But when I hear people say something needs hundreds of hours to break in I'm not sure about that. I tend to think what happens is people get used to the sound after so many hours and it is "broken in" at that point.

I can only think of 3 distinct possibilities why you might think this.

1. Your experience is limited.
2. Your system isn't very resolving.
3. Your listening skills are lacking or you don't necessarily know what to listen for.

BTW, every last one of us is guilty of all 3 of the above to one degree or another.

Or a better question is at what point does one believe the gear is broken in?

I think it would help to break things down a bit. To the best of my knowledge there exists 3 processes to this "broken in" process you mention.

1. Electrical burn-in. This applies to any object in which electric current flows.
2. Mechanical settling-in. This applies primarily to objects being positioned in a resting location.
3. Mechanical break-in. This applies to those objects that make motion. Say an internal combustion engine (ICE).

It is somewhat well-known that an ICE engine in a new vehicle's owner's manual will say something like the ICE requires 1000 hours before the mechanical break-in has matured. But what the manual doesn't state is that the engine is locked into position via the motor mounts and there's an all-important spark to cause combustion. So while all focus is on the engine internal moving parts, there is to one degree or another a mechanical settling-in and electrical burn-in processes occurring simultaneously. Perhaps the mfg'ers' focus is on mechanical break-in because failing to follow the mfg'er's guidelines can lead to engine damage or premature end-of-life.

But to answer your question, for some of us it's not a belief but a repeatable fact.

Say a dealer says the new DAC you bought needs 300 hours to break in.

The dealer may or may not know what he's talking about. But that's potentially true of any of us regarding a given subject, right?

So at what point in the 300 hour process does it happen?

Assuming the dealer speaks with any accuracy, full burn-in may be achieved anywhere from 100 to 400 hours. Why? Because we all have a different understanding of what burn-in is and what the process is and what may alter the process, etc.

But if we break things to to a more basic electrical object like an aftermarket AC plug or fuse, the burn-in time in my limited experience is roughly 53 hours (+- 30 min) of time with electric current flowing through it. And with very few exceptions. The bigger objects including much circuitry and/or power supplies or the longer the object i.e. a 2 metter pair of speaker cables verses a 5 meter pair, the burn-in times will vary. My speakers cables for 23 years have always been around 2 meters and as such full burn-in seems to be around the 7 to 10 days of round-the-clock play time.

IOW, very simple electrical objects are rather easy to predict. But the bigger and/or more complex the electrical object, the less predictable the time. But if new, it will burn-in at some point. In my limited experience, most of the compoents I've owned seem to reach full burn-in status around the 150 - 250 hour time frame. A few exceptions include an Esoteric CDP that took 275 hours and a BMC int. amp with an oversized torroidal transformer that I'm pretty sure I heard a an improvement or two upwards of the 500 hour mark.

But it's also important to note that what we call burn-in ain't just burn-in. Regardless of whatever type of vbiration mgmt methodology one may adhere to and since nobody is practicing true vibration isolation, there is also always a form of mechanical settling-in that is occurring to some extent but we don't acknowledge that part. Kinda' like the ICE engine mechanically breaking-in will include a form of settling-in and burning-in simutaneously. And if the audio object includes moving parts like motors, tone arms, speaker drivers, etc, there is always a form of mechanical break-in that occurs as well,

Heck how does one even remember what the DAC sounded like 100 or 200 hours into the break in process?

Memory really only comes from knowing a particular piece of music intimately well. But it's not the memory so much but rather it's hearing a note perhaps even with an unfamiliar piece of music, maybe the blatt of a trumpet, that just seems a bit more natural than what I'm used to hearing from a playback system. Regardless of our alleged listening skills, our ears work very well at discerning less or more natural sounds. If an object is "burning in" and I happen to be listening to an unfamiliar piece but am suddenly impressed with a note or notes, then I will revert back to pieces of music I am familiar with to confirm what I think I'm hearing.

It's also important to note that a simple electrical object like a plug or fuse usually goes thru a 1-time jump in sonics whereas a larger and/or more complex electrical object can and usually will exhibit several jumps in sonics because it's everything along the electric current flow or path that is going through the "burn-in" process which includes simple as well as more complex objects within.

Maybe my brain is just too old these days to remember specifically what something sounded like after hundreds of hours of listening.

You are not alone as it seems audio memory is GROSSLY overrated for many of us. And it seems you are one of the few that's honest about it. IMO.

 

[Holmz]

ME small signal cables take the longest time.

What are the ‘theories‘/hypothesis as to what is happening during break in?

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

I think all SS amps/preamps should have a standby mode. Then be activated by the presence of a signal. We have the technology.

Many audiophiles want as little elements in the signal path as possible.

What are the ‘theories‘/hypothesis as to what is happening during break in?

I have heard some rumours, but I'm interested to hear more.

 

[Tubeman66]

Speaker Cable Break-in – Article - Regal (regalaudio.se)

Downloads – Regal (regalaudio.se)

 

[thedudeabides]

By all means have your ears tested and cleaned. Painless ,inexpensive and informative.

I would never let an ENT put an instrument in my ear to remove wax. A friend suffered permanent hearing damage as a result of this procedure. About as smart as using a Q tip but much worse.

Use the ear drop / flush with warm water method. May take a few applications but, more importantly, will safely remove wax without any loss of hearing risk.

 

[bryans]

1. Your experience is limited.
2. Your system isn't very resolving.
3. Your listening skills are lacking or you don't necessarily know what to listen for.

BTW, every last one of us is guilty of all 3 of the above to one degree or another.

Sorry all 3 of these are crazy.

1. How can one experience be limited when the question is remembering changes to one's system during the breakin process?

2. The good old "Your system isn't very resolving" argument. So one system has to be what you say is "resolving" to remember changes? Sorry I call BS on this standard answer.

3. So remember changes during the breakin process comes down to knowing what to listen for? Sorry but listening to music isn't hard or require any special skills outside of being able to hear.

Listening to music is pure enjoyment in my household. Whenever it requires special skills, I will sell all my stuff.