Bunch of audio “experts” select their BEST products. Fun! What do you think?

[Barry2013]

Hi Barry,

Thanks. Yes, I find these awards more interesting - both from an entertainment standpoint and from an intellectual standpoint - than those of individual magazines because of their diversity. Stereophile and John Atkinson-Wilson always predictably select Wilsons, Audio Research, etc., as their best products. TAS predictably selects Magico, but TAS is not participating in these RMAF awards, so no Magico winners. But here we have a much larger mix of guys.

But again it's worth restating that high-end audio follows the economic rules of "superstar markets". (The theory was developed by Sherwin Rosen of University of Chicago.) "Herd effects" or "bandwagon effects" are prevalent in these situations.

The bandwagon effect is where popular brands become even more popular as people gain knowledge of them from their friends, experienced influencers, dealers, online boards, show reports , “audio journalists “, etc.

What this means is that a small number of brands get the lion's share of the sales - and rewards. Popular tastes and brands like Wilson dwarf everyone else. For every 8 wilsons sold, maybe 1 or 2 magicos get sold? And smaller speaker brands are lucky to sell 3-4 pairs in a year.

And that's why even in this more diverse group of individuals, we have other popular brands dominate while smaller brands and less-popular brands get ignored. The "avoided" group includes less-known box speakers brands, high-efficiency, horns, etc.

The other side of this is that brands that don't win suffer the humiliation of being ignored. Even I have empathy for Magico being ignored by a bunch of guys from the Wilson booster club , who think every thing else is drek. ... but again, the reality is that it's just different tastes and preferences, and powerful social networks to reinforce them ...

Very interesting and relevant points Ceasar.
There is clearly a good economic case for buying from the fashionable and well regarded manufacturers in that their products are likely to suffer less depreciation than those of their less popular counterparts and, to be fair, most of the former are good products. Problem is they are not necessarily better or better value on purchase new. Another very relevant consideration is the quality of backup and future servicing
The herd effect , fashion and perceived wisdom make it difficult for the consumer particularly those still developing their listening skills and confidence in relying upon their ears to tell them which sounds best.
As we progress in this hobby I am sure all of us can look back and reflect upon past mistaken purchases. Track record and a range of good reviews is in my view still a good guide but there is no substitute for hearing them in your own home, though hearing them at a well set up show can be enough as I found with my YG speakers.
The most difficult thing is finding products that really are top class and don't cost an arm or a leg and smaller outfits and new entrants to the market can often be a very good buy if you can identify them prior to commercial lift off.
I should add in conclusion that I recognise that people have different tastes, some I can understand better than others, but the real challenge in my view is identifying very good products that also offer real value for money.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I should add in conclusion that I recognise that people have different tastes, some I can understand better than others, but the real challenge in my view is identifying very good products that also offer real value for money.

The question is that real value for money also means good and extended dealership and support, reliability and prompt service, as well as a friendly relationship with the dealer/distributor and hope you are able to sell or part-exchange any equipment that does not please you .

IMHO when we consider all these aspects we surprisingly find that most big name brands score high in our lists.

The real challenge is optimally matching equipment. Unfortunately many times the high-end distribution systems makes it hard.

 

[caesar]

thank you were doing OK!

I hope you sell a ton more! Always cheering for the hard-working entrepreneurs!

 

[caesar]

The question is that real value for money also means good and extended dealership and support, reliability and prompt service, as well as a friendly relationship with the dealer/distributor and hope you are able to sell or part-exchange any equipment that does not please you .

IMHO when we consider all these aspects we surprisingly find that most big name brands score high in our lists.

...

Sure, those who succeed in the superstar market and run a good business will be more successful.

But you are referring to the one of the effects of this phenomena, loss aversion - from the consumer's perspective. Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel prize for this in the late 70s (called prospect theory in the literature)… humans are wired to be much more dissatisfied with losses than with gains.


In plain terms, people hate losing $10,000 much more than they are satisfied with gaining $10,000. So loss aversion is a greater motivator of buying decisions than potential gains. In some of the studies I have seen, it can be a factor of 2-3, but these have not been for luxury markets, like high end audio. If a manufacturer were to discount their gear by half or more, no “serious audiophile” would consider it, as they would think it’s cheap drek! … so we have this race to the top pricing-wise… a great example of this is with $29.5K Magnepan 30.7, which many think is much better than Wilson Alexx or Magico M3, but have only sold a relative handful… Even with the requirements of a medium to large sized room, Magnepan should be outselling Wilson and magico. But wilson’s latest watt puppy at nearly $40K probably sells in a month more than magnepan sold of their great 30.7 speakers over a couple of years. And Magnepan is one of the most beloved audiophile brands. So just think of the troubles of lesser known brands...

 

[Elliot G.]

Sure, those who succeed in the superstar market and run a good business will be more successful.

But you are referring to the one of the effects of this phenomena, loss aversion - from the consumer's perspective. Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel prize for this in the late 70s (called prospect theory in the literature)… humans are wired to be much more dissatisfied with losses than with gains.


In plain terms, people hate losing $10,000 much more than they are satisfied with gaining $10,000. So loss aversion is a greater motivator of buying decisions than potential gains. In some of the studies I have seen, it can be a factor of 2-3, but these have not been for luxury markets, like high end audio. If a manufacturer were to discount their gear by half or more, no “serious audiophile” would consider it, as they would think it’s cheap drek! … so we have this race to the top pricing-wise… a great example of this is with $29.5K Magnepan 30.7, which many think is much better than Wilson Alexx or Magico M3, but have only sold a relative handful… Even with the requirements of a medium to large sized room, Magnepan should be outselling Wilson and magico. But wilson’s latest watt puppy at nearly $40K probably sells in a month more than magnepan sold of their great 30.7 speakers over a couple of years. And Magnepan is one of the most beloved audiophile brands. So just think of the troubles of lesser known brands...

your theory may be correct however your examples aren't.
I believe that one of the key ingredients of the success of the Wilson products is their size. In a time when all the competition was huge and with many pieces Wilson produced products that many people could actually put in their rooms.
Forgetting the quality of any of the products Magnepans are HUGE and very hard for people to incorporate in their room. Looks wise they have very mixed responses as well. Since it doesn't look like a typical speaker many totally hate it. Having sold the products for many years this was a huge stumbling block. Magnepan also has many other issues with marketing etc. but that's not the subject here. Whether you like Wilson or Magico both companies have done an excellent job in marketing and distributing their products. There is resistance to products that are different in every field and these different products take a lot of effort and time to become accepted. In many cultures these products will never be accepted. With our products we have noted this. A story for another time and place. By the way Caesar you don't really have the Magnepan story correct and don't know much of what happened with them and why they lost market share. I don't want to get into that but its not as black and white as you want to make it.

 

[caesar]

your theory may be correct however your examples aren't.
I believe that one of the key ingredients of the success of the Wilson products is their size. In a time when all the competition was huge and with many pieces Wilson produced products that many people could actually put in their rooms.
Forgetting the quality of any of the products Magnepans are HUGE and very hard for people to incorporate in their room. Looks wise they have very mixed responses as well. Since it doesn't look like a typical speaker many totally hate it. Having sold the products for many years this was a huge stumbling block. Magnepan also has many other issues with marketing etc. but that's not the subject here. Whether you like Wilson or Magico both companies have done an excellent job in marketing and distributing their products. There is resistance to products that are different in every field and these different products take a lot of effort and time to become accepted. In many cultures these products will never be accepted. With our products we have noted this. A story for another time and place. By the way Caesar you don't really have the Magnepan story correct and don't know much of what happened with them and why they lost market share. I don't want to get into that but its not as black and white as you want to make it.

Hi Elliot,
As you can tell , I’m not an insider. In fact, I find many of the insiders quite disgusting. So I empathize with guys like you trying to make people’s lives better while dealing with them.

I can only point out what i see happening, and I have been talking about magico and Wilson marketing for a long time- the good, bad , and ugly. If you have better examples, please share.

 

[NorthStar]

It's not just the best products, it's the best people behind the best products.

 

[caesar]

It's not just the best products, it's the best people behind the best products.

Sure, having great people and knowing how to run a business are very important. Wilson is an outstanding company with many excellent people. Sure, there got some arrogant, annoying guys like "Snooty" Peter McGrath, but, overall, they have done a great job, which makes things much easier for them, their dealers, and customers.

Yet there are many companies out there with genuinely good, principle-centered people, with products designed by excellent engineers that get no traction. It's really hard to fight a economic forces. As I mentioned, brands that are not superstars suffer humiliation of being ignored; and people think they suck.

 

[NorthStar]

Caesar, I don't know Peter McGrath; I've only read and saw few pics of him in some audio mags.
I know less than zero.

But her I remember her as a super fun and very amicable lady of high human caliber ...

Only because you just mentioned Wilson.

For me the people count more above all else. It's just the way I was raised by my beautiful parents and grandparents, and @ school...the best school, the best parents, the best grandparents.