Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[ScottK]

I currently have both digital and vinyl front ends. For the most part I think my vinyl playback sounds, let's say, 10% better than most of my comparable digital recordings (IMO). I've got the itch to try MSB or DCS stacks to take out that last percentage . Problem is I'm not convinced I could get there even after spending 10"s of thousands of dollars to do it. I'm fairly happy with my current DAC/Streamer and was thinking it might make better sense to wait a couple of years to see what may shake out of vendors in this fast changing technology. For those who are or were in a similar situation any advice would be appreciated.

 

[bryans]

My belief is if you are trying to get your digital setup to sound like your analog setup you might as well quit. Why try to get them to sound alike? I believe you can get incredible sound out of both.

 

[ScottK]

My belief is if you are trying to get your digital setup to sound like your analog setup you might as well quit. Why try to get them to sound alike? I believe you can get incredible sound out of both.

That may be the case. Two similar but different sound signatures. The best way I can describe the differences in my system is the digital sounds a little "homogenized" while the vinyl sounds more alive and acoustic instruments do sound more "real".

 

[bonzo75]

I've got the itch to try MSB or DCS stacks to take out that last percentage out.

why not spend even more on this increasing function? And what price will you have to then spend on analog again for it to start surpassing the enhanced quality of this expensive digital

 

[microstrip]

That may be the case. Two similar but different sound signatures. The best way I can describe the differences in my system is the digital sounds a little "homogenized" while the vinyl sounds more alive and acoustic instruments do sound more "real".

If your digital sounds a a little "homogenized" get urgently another digital or tune it! I have owned digital of different sound quality and performance, but quickly chased those few that I found that "homogenized" my system. Sometimes the IC between DAC and preamplifier is critical in this aspect.

BTW, I have no experience at all with your DAC.

 

[Another Johnson]

In my limited experience, it has been very difficult to get streaming to sound as good as vinyl, and I would not go so far as to declare success.
I’ve found some of the most significant advances here (dCS Rossini is my streamer/DAC) were very low cost, or free

- hard wire Ethernet from router rather than use a WiFi bridge

- control with Mosaic rather than Roon

People tell me the Apex upgrade and clock, about $10k each, will get me closer.

I am pretty happy where things are though. Streaming from Qobuz is generally pretty enjoyable. I’m not actively trying to make it sound like vinyl anymore. It sounds very nice on its own.

 

[ScottK]

why not spend even more on this increasing function? And what price will you have to then spend on analog again for it to start surpassing the enhanced quality of this expensive digital

That's the cynical view. This is a hobby and changes are fun but infrequent in my system. I'm also blessed to be able to do this (self made through hard work). I tend to hold things for 10 or more years. Thus not on the hamster wheel.

 

[Audire]

I don‘t think digital will be 100% equal with analogue, but IMO it’s getting really close - very close. High end analogue is exceptional and has a sound that has IMO been unequalled. This said, digital is very very good and is getting closer, but I don‘t think it will ever equal or surpass high end analogue.

 

[Famester]

I would agree that digital cannot sound as good as vinyl.
Until my Horizon and tube rolling came along.
I am in heaven.
Now I don't stand up every 15 minutes to flip a record, clean, destatic, find albums, etc.
Call me lazy

 

[microstrip]

I don‘t think digital will be 100% equal with analogue, but IMO it’s getting really close - very close. High end analogue is exceptional and has a sound that has IMO been unequalled. This said, digital is very very good and is getting closer, but I don‘t think it will ever equal or surpass high end analogue.

Fortunately top digital is not coming close to vinyl - although it seems some digital adds some kind of distortions to try to emulate vinyl artifacts. And anyone having experience with top tape playback in standard form will know that it sounds different from vinyl - and it is why some people prefer their vinyl to tape.

Digital carries more information and less artifacts than vinyl - it will never be 100% equal. For me it surpasses analogue because I can have recordings in digital that could have been impossible to make in analogue.

Remember that the great analogue recordings of the past can not be replicated today due to human aspects, cost and even labor laws - not because of digital!

 

[Audire]

I would agree that digital cannot sound as good as vinyl.
Until my Horizon and tube rolling came along.
I am in heaven.
Now I don't stand up every 15 minutes to flip a record, clean, destatic, find albums, etc.
Call me lazy

Flipping a record is part and parcel of the enjoyment of Vinyl. It gets you more involved in what you are actually listening to. Rather than just selecting an app, you become part of the process. The table, the arm, the cart, the record, are all a part if it. Each may place you in a different venue to hear the same recording!

The sound, the sound: Vinyl seems to be deeper, richer, warmer, and of a more rounded quality and is unequaled IMO!

This said, there are days when my back won’t allow any walking - i.e. when flipping of records can’t be on the agenda! That’s when I’m glad high end streaming kicks in… But while it’s close I can still tell the difference.

Both are fantastic, but I still prefer Vinyl when possible! Those wholly devoted to digital look at a picture of an album, while I actually hold a physical album. Records aren’t merely purchased, owned, and heard, but they are felt, engaged, and possessed.Thus, more of our natural senses are engaged. IMO, while I sincerely appreciate digital, Vinyl will always remain superior!

 

[Famester]

Flipping a record is part and parcel of the enjoyment of Vinyl. It gets you more involved in what you are actually listening to. Rather than just selecting an app, you become part of the process. The table, the arm, the cart, the record, are all a part if it. Each may place you in a different venue to hear the same recording!

The sound, the sound: Vinyl seems to be deeper, richer, warmer, and of a more rounded quality and is unequaled IMO!

This said, there are days when my back won’t allow any walking - i.e. when flipping of records can’t be on the agenda! That’s when I’m glad high end streaming kicks in… But while it’s close I can still tell the difference.

Both are fantastic, but I still prefer Vinyl when possible! Those wholly devoted to digital look at a picture of an album, while I actually hold a physical album. Records aren’t merely purchased, owned, and heard, but they are felt, engaged, and possessed.Thus, more of our natural senses are engaged. IMO, while I sincerely appreciate digital, Vinyl will always

Joe,
You forgot to call me lazy.

 

[PeterA]

Digital does not sound like vinyl at any price because they are fundamentally different. When it comes to preference, it depends on the listener’s values. In every system I have ever heard with both formats, I have preferred the analog vinyl.

As MikeL has often said, digital keeps improving but so does analog.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I've got the itch to try MSB or DCS stacks to take out that last percentage . Problem is I'm not convinced I could get there even after spending 10"s of thousands of dollars to do it.

Hi Scott,

Are you completely averse for some reason to a tube DAC?

If not, forget tens of thousands of dollars more, and just get a Baltic 4 (MSRP around $6,500) and see (ah, hear) what you think. If the Baltic 4 brings you closer to analog sound, then you can be pretty sure you would love a Horizon. If you like the Baltic 4, a Horizon likely would close some of that remaining 10% gap.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Digital does not sound like vinyl at any price

I honestly don't even know what this means.

How much digital using a respected, current generation DAC have you listened to recently?

 

[Gregadd]

I just think digital approaches reality from a different perspective than vinyl.

 

[Massimo66]

Digital has a usability that analogue is dreamed of, sitting on the sofa and having access to an infinite library is priceless, even if a well-balanced analogue system romantically sounds better. When I get home from work and I have only a little time to devote myself to this wonderful hobby, digital technology certainly helps me satisfy my great desire for music and relax after a day of mental fatigue. It being understood that everything is perfectible, each of us builds his own system based on the perception of what reality is and this makes the biggest difference. Don't get me wrong, a good system, well developed, is always a good feeling and even if my preference goes to the analog, I believe that the extreme performance is linked to a series of variables that also require only the warm-up time of our equipment. This applies to most hobbyists, obviously retirees and those who have made a job out of this hobby are excluded from this reasoning. Personally I work on the growth of both systems and not being a Scrooge today if I had to start again I would set up an exclusively digital system, as creating an analog collection worth the price of a good analog system takes a lot of time and good advice. This last statement is the result of exclusively rational reasoning, but who among you hasn't been excited while waiting for the Phono and the needle to reach the ideal operating temperature, rolling your eyes and ears and filling your mouth with smiles when your analog equipment reaches its peak of exercise. I think we could spend hours talking about what is better or if digital can equal analog but the only truth (auditory perceptions fall within the field of subjectivity) "What is beautiful is not beautiful but what you like is beautiful". I apologize in advance for my english

 

[tima]

Digital does not sound like vinyl ...

Is it soooo confusing?

Not really... Regardless of preference or degree of similarity or identity, participants do seem to acknowlege that digital does not sound like vinyl.
.

I currently have both digital and vinyl front ends. For the most part I think my vinyl playback sounds, let's say, 10% better than most of my comparable digital recordings (IMO).

Why try to get them to sound alike?

In my limited experience, it has been very difficult to get streaming to sound as good as vinyl, and I would not go so far as to declare success.

I don‘t think digital will be 100% equal with analogue, but IMO it’s getting really close - very clos

I would agree that digital cannot sound as good as vinyl.

I just think digital approaches reality from a different perspective than vinyl.

(No doubt there will be exceptions but we don't see much discussion on how to get vinyl to sound like digital.)

Yet there remains for a few a need to convince others that one format is the 'right' format or the 'best' format or something (a purchase?) needs to be validated or defended. Granted audiophiles love to bait and argue, but really ... who cares? Vinyl does not soud like digital. Digital does not sound like vinyl.

When it comes to preference, it depends on the listener’s values.

I agree - do what you believe in doing. And I will add that it also depends somewhat on resources. I choose not to do both because I can't afford to do both really well. I also have no interest in continuing to replicate performances in different formats. I don't listen to modern pop and thus far, after having chosen a format a few years back, don't find myself missing something not available to me. There's plenty of music available to me that I have not heard. Those are my choices - you may have different choices and that's fine. If you want to try to get one format to sound like another format -- that's fine too.

 

[msimanyi]

There's no "right answer" here. I think Ron's suggestion is pretty good though. If it fits your budget, I'd just suggest you figure out how to demo the Horizon.

I attended my first audio show last month - T.H.E. Show in Costa Mesa, Ca. It was a blast!

I was going in order to get some exposure to turntables, tonearms and cartridges I might like, and I certainly achieved that.

But I also noticed that a number of the systems supported analog, digital and even tape, and the digital sounded indistinguishably similar to analog. Many of those systems were running MSB on the digital side. (I’m also not familiar with those systems, and I am sure a weekend show in a hotel room is a challenging environment to optimize. With more listening time I’d likely detect the differences, but frankly I was shocked there wasn’t an obvious improvement with analog.)

If I were considering MSB, I’d be looking at the Reference… So you can bet I’d be auditioning it and the Horizon.

(Side note: look up Loudness Wars. It will clue you in to one major potential digital negative.)

Perhaps you can get some good improvements with the “supporting” hardware. What‘s your network hardware in front of the Innuous? Have you explored cables - power, network and interconnects - for your streamer and DAC? Are you using any isolation products? All these can contribute materially to the digital side, far more than I could have imagined when I started down this path.

 

[Young Skywalker]

In my system, playback of the same recordings (Decca classical recordings from the golden age) on vinyl (a mix of original and reissue pressings cleaned on a Keith Monks RCM) versus streamed high res digital (96.0 or 176.4 kHz and 24-bit over Qobuz) sounds very, very similar.

The digital playback has a soundstage which is just as expansive (width, depth, height and scale) as the vinyl playback, is marginally superior on macro and micro dynamics (due to the lower noise floor), and has similar levels of inner detail (spatial information, harmonics, etc.). There is no surface noise at all via the digital playback, just the residual hiss of the original analogue tape.

This was not the case prior to adding the MSB Technology Reference Digital Director to my Reference DAC and it certainly was not the case with the earlier iteration of MSB Technology DACs.

Note that I use the passive (constant impedance) analogue volume control "preamp" of the MSB Technology Reference DAC for both digital and analogue source playback. My phono preamp (a Jeff Rowland Cadence with battery power supply) provides loads of super quiet gain for my 0.5 mV output MC cartridge. My speakers are actively tri-amplified (via a line level active crossover) in a dedicated, symmetrical and acoustically treated listening room. I listen in the relative near field. It's not as if some major source of distortion is masking sonic differences between the two sources with "equivalent" software.

If I was to start over again, and I did not already own a significant number of LPs which are not available via digital sources (or are inferior masterings via digital, e.g., Fleetwood Mac's Rumours album), then I would not bother with a turntable.

In terms of what my analogue and digital sources would cost to replace or replicate today, I think that I have more invested in the digital (a ratio of approximately 1.5:1.0).

Where would I go to improve my vinyl playback further? That would be an Acoustical Systems AStellar turntable. Unfortunately, I do not have the disposable income for such a step whilst paying a mortgage in Sydney.

Could I achieve the same digital results for less money? Possibly with an MSB Technology Premier DAC and Premier Digital Director/Network Renderer module. Possibly with a Playback Designs MPD-8 (or MPD-6) and partnering MPT-8 (or MPS-6). Noting that their volume controls are for the DAC output only, requiring a separate analogue preamplifier for vinyl playback at considerable expense for the requisite degree of transparency and low distortion.